"No Nazis Denied"

[Nessie]

...

This explains why everyone gives conflicting details about the gassing and cremation process,

The eyewitnesses are consistent about the process. Mass transports arrived, there were at times selections, more so in A-B than any other camps, people were told to undress and their property was stolen, they were put inside chambers and killed and the corpses buried or cremated.

The inconsistencies about details, such as how many people were put inside a chamber at a time, and what killed them inside the chamber, are to be expected. If everyone gave exactly the same details, that would suggest active collusion, all reading from one script. There were different jobs within the process, so different people saw different aspects. Memory fades over time, and no eyewitness gave their evidence until at least a year later, often it was decades.

Your inaccuracies, when assessing witness evidence, is the single largest mistake you make.

...because none of this happened

Illogical circular argument. You need to evidence and prove what happened, before you can say gassings did not happen. I know how to do that, you do not, which is your second biggest mistake.

... and there was no literature indicating what happened to people exposed to hydrogen cyanide to provide a narrative basis, so everyone was claiming, only that there was gassing. It's the same as if all swans are white, if someone says they saw a black one they have to show one,

Which is why revisionists, who say they are revising the history, need to show the black swan.

.... but what we have is a sonderkommando claiming absurdities such as different colors of bodies exposed to Zyklon B, or that this gas had a color or rose from the floor to the ceiling, that the bodies piled up, giving the impression that they were escaping from the floor, and others that they remained still like statues in their places.

But for exterminationists none of this matters, and disagreement is even expected.

It is to be expected, as proven by the numerous studies of witnesses, memory and recall, that you refuse to read and learn from, because if you did, you would have to face up to your biggest mistake.

[Nazgul]

If everyone gave exactly the same details, that would suggest active collusion, all reading from one script. There were different jobs within the process, so different people saw different aspects. Memory fades over time, and no eyewitness gave their evidence until at least a year later, often it was decades.

Lies fade over time, real terrifying events do not.
There is one consistency with the alleged Birkenau gassings, the queues.

The British National Archive has released the first of five million World War II aerial reconnaissance photographs taken over occupied Europe by the RAF. Museum

This was the time period when the Hungarian Jews were allegedly gassed (15 May- 19 July 1944).
While some smoke is seen in the images, there are no photos of such queues as in the image above.
Do you think the Nazis were playing Hide and Seek with the planes?

Allied aircraft flew repeatedly over the area where the camp was located.
Reconnaissance aircraft began flying over in April 1944 to photograph industrial plants, and especially the Buna-Werke synthetic rubber and gasoline plant in Monowice.

20040206_1d.jpg (90.72 KiB) Viewed 254 times

[Nessie]

Aerial photos are way off topic. To stop your blatant derail, a reminder that you cannot produce a single German eyewitness, to what happened inside the Kremas, that backs up the varied and contradictory so-called revisionist claims about what the buildings were used for.

[Nazgul]

Aerial photos are way off topic. To stop your blatant derail, a reminder that you cannot produce a single German eyewitness, to what happened inside the Kremas, that backs up the varied and contradictory so-called revisionist claims about what the buildings were used for.

In kremas bodies get stored then burned. I will start a new topic on the aerial pics and the lack of corroborating evidence for the story you have been claiming for many years now.

[Hektor]

Aerial photos are way off topic. To stop your blatant derail, a reminder that you cannot produce a single German eyewitness, to what happened inside the Kremas, that backs up the varied and contradictory so-called revisionist claims about what the buildings were used for.

In kremas bodies get stored then burned. I will start a new topic on the aerial pics and the lack of corroborating evidence for the story you have been claiming for many years now.

Point here is the false assertion that nobody with a higher function in NS-Germany did ever "deny the Holocaust"... When in fact they did. It's just that virtually every German said that they knew of a physical extermination program of Jews during WW2. That they knew about deportation and possibly occasional executions or epidemics is another matter. The trick is to conflate deportations, internment, etc. with "Holocaust".

[Nessie]

Aerial photos are way off topic. To stop your blatant derail, a reminder that you cannot produce a single German eyewitness, to what happened inside the Kremas, that backs up the varied and contradictory so-called revisionist claims about what the buildings were used for.

In kremas bodies get stored then burned. I will start a new topic on the aerial pics and the lack of corroborating evidence for the story you have been claiming for many years now.

Point here is the false assertion that nobody with a higher function in NS-Germany did ever "deny the Holocaust"... When in fact they did. It's just that virtually every German said that they knew of a physical extermination program of Jews during WW2. That they knew about deportation and possibly occasional executions or epidemics is another matter. The trick is to conflate deportations, internment, etc. with "Holocaust".

You cannot produce any Nazi, who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno, or A-B Krema, who states they were not used for gassings and what they were used for.

You cannot produce and senior Nazi, whose function meant they would have had knowledge of the running of those places, who states they were not used for gassings and what they were used for.

You cannot produce any Nazi, of any rank or function, who produces evidence that by 1944, there were millions of Jews in camps and ghettos, which would have been the product of the alleged resettlement programme.

The Holocaust consisted of laws identifying and excluding Jews from society, mass arrests, mass transportation to ghettos and camps, the closure of those ghettos and murder of the majority of residents, the use of Jews as slave labourers in the camps.

The Nazis used various deceptions, such as resettlement claims and mass showering, to achieve their aims.

[Callafangers]

You cannot produce any Nazi, who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno, or A-B Krema, who states they were not used for gassings and what they were used for.

Documentation, physical evidence, and reason are far superior to coerced testimony, no matter how far you stretch your goalposts. Whether pointing to the excellent analysis from PrudentRegret summarizing and bringing new developments on the official documentation of places like Treblinka (see here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=26) or if we are looking at the A-B Krema abundantly shown to have had appropriate (non-homicidal) wartime features and upgrades (here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=10124#p10124), or simply pointing out the total lack of potential fuel (wood) for your claims of Guinness World Records cremation operations, your position is not sustainable.

This dead horse is taking quite the beating.

You cannot produce and senior Nazi, whose function meant they would have had knowledge of the running of those places, who states they were not used for gassings and what they were used for.

I had a bicycle as a child. Because there are no documents proving it's purpose for my recreational uses at that age, does this give weight to someone who claims I was actually using it as a murder weapon?

I cannot wrap my head around how and why you think you have an argumentative leg to stand on, here.

You cannot produce any Nazi, of any rank or function, who produces evidence that by 1944, there were millions of Jews in camps and ghettos, which would have been the product of the alleged resettlement programme.

The notion that "millions" of disproportionately infirm Jews would have survived not just the brutal travel conditions but also extreme elements and deprivation (whether under Hitler's or Stalin's administration) by 1944 is quite silly. We'd be down to some few hundreds of thousands or so, all things considered, by 1944-5. Moreover, Goebbels' diary explicitly mentions a type of 'quarantine' for these Jews, which seems to reflect a kind of black site and which aligns with the wartime need for strict information control, especially on Jewish matters which in this case overlap with military concerns. Given we know that locations far into the East are what the Final Solution is documented as having entailed, there is every reason to suspect Jews had been sent there.

With conditions near and after war's end of:

• Extraordinary destruction of records (on all sides)
• Soviet "iron secrecy" over Eastern territories
• Postwar motives (of victors and Jews alike); proven via 'denazification' efforts, Zionism, mass destruction, and show trials
• Minimal effective inquiry (nor even interest) into Jewish outcomes in Eastern Europe

...any reasonable person can infer that Jews could end up within these territories by war's end (and evidently did, absent evidence of 'extermination') .

Additionally, we have seen time and time again the numerous places which have not been effectively ruled out, insofar as Jewish dispersion across numerous locations, including further West, even by the latter years of the war. There has been much ado about the question of 'Judenrein' versus 'Judenfrei' however there stands to be much evidence showing Jews were still alive in locations said to have been 'free of' or 'cleansed of' Jews entirely. Given that the bigger picture on Jewish policy was always about separating Jews from their proximity to [and ability to influence] non-Jews, even documentation suggesting a great absence of Jews in a given territory must be taken with a grain of salt. In other words: Jews imprisoned or in transit in any area did not necessarily belong to that area (nor should we assume they were necessarily reported as such).

As shown elsewhere (here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=9325#p9325), there is no evidence for the closure of hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of Jewish labor camps (Zwansarbeitslagers) across Europe (many confirmed as remaining open well-into 1944-5). This doesn't align well with the 'genocidal cleansing' effort you try to portray.

Of course, all of this additional clarification is merely a generous 'bonus' I offer you beyond the plain fact that none of your claims of:

(1) homicidal 'gas chambers',
(2) homicidal gas-wagons,
(3) mass graves of mind-boggling proportion, or
(4) the largest bonfires in human history with magically-endless fuel

...are supported by independently-verifiable evidence with adequate source criticism of any kind.

Thus, no matter how many volumes of show trial transcripts or coerced postwar testimony you produce from 'Nazis', those aware of the quality of evidence for your position will continue to find ample reason to doubt, then eventually dismiss your claims as not just false but absurd.

The Holocaust consisted of laws identifying and excluding Jews from society, mass arrests, mass transportation to ghettos and camps, the closure of those ghettos and murder of the majority of residents, the use of Jews as slave labourers in the camps.

We can all agree Jews were excluded from society. You gloss over the reasons why this happened. You (like many others) pretend Jewish collective behavior had nothing to do with it -- you insist Germans were a nation of raving lunatics and Jews nothing but blameless saints. And with this perspective, you cannot fathom why the threat of a second World War on German soil would come to necessitate mass arrests and imprisonment.

In any case, you take well-known facts of Jewish internment and then, after stripping all context, attempt to connect this to your unsubstantiated claims from every German enemy and the German prisoners they captured.

Here's a question: with more than two million German women of all ages raped by the Soviet army (and a smaller number by other Allies), I wonder how many captured 'Nazis' knew of such a fate happening to their wife or sister, or to those of one of their colleagues. With such horror stories floating around, just imagine the power of the words, "tell us what we want to hear, or your daughter will be next."

If and when such coercive statements were made, Nessie, who would be the one to document them? Just a thought.

The Nazis used various deceptions, such as resettlement claims and mass showering, to achieve their aims.

Nessie... the Nazis definitely did resettlement and mass showering. From Jewish homes to ghettos, from ghettos to camps; even you don't deny this. Do you now deny showers? Were Jews exempt from measures combating typhus? You know they weren't.

[Nessie]

You cannot produce any Nazi, who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno, or A-B Krema, who states they were not used for gassings and what they were used for.

Documentation, physical evidence, and reason are far superior to coerced testimony, no matter how far you stretch your goalposts.

There is no evidence of any coercion of the Nazis tried by German prosecutors, for crimes they admitted took place and for which there is a ton of corroborating evidence.

Whether pointing to the excellent analysis from PrudentRegret summarizing and bringing new developments on the official documentation of places like Treblinka (see here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=26)

PR cannot produce a single eyewitness to TII being a property sorting centre, or evidence what happened to the people once all their property had been taken from them.

... or if we are looking at the A-B Krema abundantly shown to have had appropriate (non-homicidal) wartime features and upgrades (here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=10124#p10124),

Evidence crematoriums, for which there are no claims they were ever used for homicidal purposes, that are modified to contain undressing rooms, gas chambers and ovens for multiple corpse cremations. You will not be able to. The A-B Kremas were unique.

or simply pointing out the total lack of potential fuel (wood) for your claims of Guinness World Records cremation operations, your position is not sustainable.

I see you say potential, not evidenced, since you know Poland had lots of forest and wood yards and there is evidence of wood being delivered to Sobibor, ordered from one of the wood yards.

This dead horse is taking quite the beating.

That is you, taking a beating, with unevidenced claims.

You cannot produce and senior Nazi, whose function meant they would have had knowledge of the running of those places, who states they were not used for gassings and what they were used for.

I had a bicycle as a child. Because there are no documents proving it's purpose for my recreational uses at that age, does this give weight to someone who claims I was actually using it as a murder weapon?

I cannot wrap my head around how and why you think you have an argumentative leg to stand on, here.

You cannot produce any Nazi, of any rank or function, who produces evidence that by 1944, there were millions of Jews in camps and ghettos, which would have been the product of the alleged resettlement programme.

Your argument is that every single German was too scared to reveal the truth about what happened to the Jews during WWII, is somewhat unconvincing. It appeals only to people who like conspiracies, think it is possible to fool the world and image they are the clever one.

That you cannot come up with any eyewitnesses, to something that millions of people witnessed, Nazi and Jew, is evidence the conspiracy you believe in, is a hoax.

The notion that "millions" of disproportionately infirm Jews would have survived not just the brutal travel conditions but also extreme elements and deprivation (whether under Hitler's or Stalin's administration) by 1944 is quite silly. We'd be down to some few hundreds of thousands or so, all things considered, by 1944-5. Moreover, Goebbels' diary explicitly mentions a type of 'quarantine' for these Jews, which seems to reflect a kind of black site and which aligns with the wartime need for strict information control, especially on Jewish matters which in this case overlap with military concerns. Given we know that locations far into the East are what the Final Solution is documented as having entailed, there is every reason to suspect Jews had been sent there.

Your notion that of the 6-7 million Jews arrested 1939-44, the vast majority were so infirm, they could not survive the camps and ghettos, is utter drivel. You cannot evidence a "black site" or the locations of resettlement in the East.

With conditions near and after war's end of:

• Extraordinary destruction of records (on all sides)
• Soviet "iron secrecy" over Eastern territories
• Postwar motives (of victors and Jews alike); proven via 'denazification' efforts, Zionism, mass destruction, and show trials
• Minimal effective inquiry (nor even interest) into Jewish outcomes in Eastern Europe

...any reasonable person can infer that Jews could end up within these territories by war's end (and evidently did, absent evidence of 'extermination') .

The Soviets could not cope with liberating millions of Jews, many from the West, in 1945 and you have no evidence they did. You also leave a gap in 1943-4, where were all the arrested Jews then?

Additionally, we have seen time and time again the numerous places which have not been effectively ruled out, insofar as Jewish dispersion across numerous locations, including further West, even by the latter years of the war. There has been much ado about the question of 'Judenrein' versus 'Judenfrei' however there stands to be much evidence showing Jews were still alive in locations said to have been 'free of' or 'cleansed of' Jews entirely. Given that the bigger picture on Jewish policy was always about separating Jews from their proximity to [and ability to influence] non-Jews, even documentation suggesting a great absence of Jews in a given territory must be taken with a grain of salt. In other words: Jews imprisoned or in transit in any area did not necessarily belong to that area (nor should we assume they were necessarily reported as such).

You have no evidence of millions of Jews alive in camps and ghettos, 1943-4.

As shown elsewhere (here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=9325#p9325), there is no evidence for the closure of hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of Jewish labor camps (Zwansarbeitslagers) across Europe (many confirmed as remaining open well-into 1944-5). This doesn't align well with the 'genocidal cleansing' effort you try to portray.

Nazgul recently produced a list of camps, the majority of which had closure dates in 1943-4. All the ghettos had closed by mid 1944. A-B had a smaller camp population in 1944, than in 1943. You are lying that there is no evidence of a massive reduction in the Jewish population, of those arrested and imprisoned by the Nazis.

Of course, all of this additional clarification is merely a generous 'bonus' I offer you beyond the plain fact that none of your claims of:

(1) homicidal 'gas chambers',
(2) homicidal gas-wagons,
(3) mass graves of mind-boggling proportion, or
(4) the largest bonfires in human history with magically-endless fuel

...are supported by independently-verifiable evidence with adequate source criticism of any kind.

That is a barefaced lie. The majority of the evidence comes from Nazi sources, eyewitnesses, documents, the camp sites and circumstantial evidence of various operations involving Jews and others considered unworthy of life.

Thus, no matter how many volumes of show trial transcripts or coerced postwar testimony you produce from 'Nazis', those aware of the quality of evidence for your position will continue to find ample reason to doubt, then eventually dismiss your claims as not just false but absurd.

Prove the trials run by German prosecutors were show trials, where the accused were coerced.

The Holocaust consisted of laws identifying and excluding Jews from society, mass arrests, mass transportation to ghettos and camps, the closure of those ghettos and murder of the majority of residents, the use of Jews as slave labourers in the camps.

We can all agree Jews were excluded from society. You gloss over the reasons why this happened. You (like many others) pretend Jewish collective behavior had nothing to do with it -- you insist Germans were a nation of raving lunatics and Jews nothing but blameless saints. And with this perspective, you cannot fathom why the threat of a second World War on German soil would come to necessitate mass arrests and imprisonment.

In any case, you take well-known facts of Jewish internment and then, after stripping all context, attempt to connect this to your unsubstantiated claims from every German enemy and the German prisoners they captured.

Here's a question: with more than two million German women of all ages raped by the Soviet army (and a smaller number by other Allies), I wonder how many captured 'Nazis' knew of such a fate happening to their wife or sister, or to those of one of their colleagues. With such horror stories floating around, just imagine the power of the words, "tell us what we want to hear, or your daughter will be next."

If and when such coercive statements were made, Nessie, who would be the one to document them? Just a thought.

Again, the majority of the evidence comes from Nazi sources and the countries they occupied or where aligned to, many of which were heavily involved in assiting the Nazis, even killing their own Jewish citizens, and they ALL admit to their responsibility. Why would Latvians, who suffered Nazi and Soviet occupation, support a hoax that had them joining with the Nazis, to shoot Jews? Why would Romania admit that they, without being occupied by the Nazis, murdered their own Jews? Those countries have no cause to continue to support a Soviet hoax.

The Nazis used various deceptions, such as resettlement claims and mass showering, to achieve their aims.

Nessie... the Nazis definitely did resettlement and mass showering. From Jewish homes to ghettos, from ghettos to camps; even you don't deny this. Do you now deny showers? Were Jews exempt from measures combating typhus? You know they weren't.

Your comment shows how you struggle to understand evidencing. When arrested Jews survived the war, it is possible to follow a documented evidential trail, from their arrest, to transportation, accommodation and liberation. People who live, leave evidence they showered and lived in camps and ghettos.

What you ignore, is the 5-6 million Jews, for whom a documentary trail starts, with their identification and arrest and the first camp or ghetto they were sent to, but then it ends, and that ending came for about 2.5 million at one of only 6 camps. Another 2 million disappeared at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen, or Latvian Auxiliary Police, or Romanian soldiers. The rest died in the camps and ghettos.

[Hektor]

...

The Nazis used various deceptions, such as resettlement claims and mass showering, to achieve their aims.

Nessie... the Nazis definitely did resettlement and mass showering. From Jewish homes to ghettos, from ghettos to camps; even you don't deny this. Do you now deny showers? Were Jews exempt from measures combating typhus? You know they weren't.

Resettling was hardly a deception. They indeed moved people for A to B. Thought there was consensus on this.
Also, they used mass showering for public hygiene purposes and it was taken serious since it was seen as a measure to prevent epidemics.

It seems he suggests now that because there are plenty of 'survivor' with neatly recorded whereabouts during WW2. Those we don't have those documented trail of whereabouts of must somehow be "Holocaust Victims"... Imagine this twisted illogic being applied to other fields. Folks with some spark of thought would laugh at you. But since it's related to the Holocaust religion... no laughing allowed here....

[Nessie]

...

The Nazis used various deceptions, such as resettlement claims and mass showering, to achieve their aims.

Nessie... the Nazis definitely did resettlement and mass showering. From Jewish homes to ghettos, from ghettos to camps; even you don't deny this. Do you now deny showers? Were Jews exempt from measures combating typhus? You know they weren't.

Resettling was hardly a deception. They indeed moved people for A to B. Thought there was consensus on this.
Also, they used mass showering for public hygiene purposes and it was taken serious since it was seen as a measure to prevent epidemics.

Name the department and Nazi in charge of the resettled Jews, in 1944.

It seems he suggests now that because there are plenty of 'survivor' with neatly recorded whereabouts during WW2. Those we don't have those documented trail of whereabouts of must somehow be "Holocaust Victims"... Imagine this twisted illogic being applied to other fields. Folks with some spark of thought would laugh at you. But since it's related to the Holocaust religion... no laughing allowed here....

It is simple logic that those who were killed drop off any documentary record, and those not killed left a documentary trail throughout the war.

[Callafangers]

There is no evidence of any coercion of the Nazis tried by German prosecutors, for crimes they admitted took place and for which there is a ton of corroborating evidence.

Would that be East German, Nessie? Or just the West German trials which took place 20 years later, once precedents were firmly set?

PR cannot produce a single eyewitness to TII being a property sorting centre, or evidence what happened to the people once all their property had been taken from them.

Multiple Jewish witnesses reported sorting property on-site. Mixing truth with lies is a best practice in lying. You only assume a significant number of "the people" (who?) you imagine ever set foot on T-II. You have no evidence for this, only baseless and often proven-false claims from politically-charged and vindictive or extremely coerced statements.

Evidence crematoriums, for which there are no claims they were ever used for homicidal purposes, that are modified to contain undressing rooms, gas chambers and ovens for multiple corpse cremations. You will not be able to. The A-B Kremas were unique.

Undressing corpses is what happens at a morgue, and was likely managed with special care during a typhus epidemic and louse-infested clothing. You have no evidence of "multiple corpse cremations" as any standard practice, and face strong evidence to the contrary, ranging from industry norms to unresolved problems with maintenance and overall feasibility. The minimal body fat of any Jews allegedly cremated by the millions also slaps you in the face -- that is, unless you'd claim the ghettos were exquisite, all-you-can-eat buffets -- as you require normal body fat content for your "multiple corpse cremations" to come close to lowering your bottom-line time and fuel requirements. It's a catch-22; either the Jews were well-fed for years (strange if the goal was to 'exterminate') or they were not cremated at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Which is it?

I see you say potential, not evidenced, since you know Poland had lots of forest and wood yards and there is evidence of wood being delivered to Sobibor, ordered from one of the wood yards.

I got a firewood delivery last year for an outdoor barbecue with friends. That doesn't mean I have since received 50,000 more such deliveries for burning corpses.

But do you realize that this is the same essential logic you're presenting, here, for your unevidenced AR camp fuel deliveries?

That is you, taking a beating, with unevidenced claims.

Uh-huh.

Your argument is that every single German was too scared to reveal the truth about what happened to the Jews during WWII, is somewhat unconvincing. It appeals only to people who like conspiracies, think it is possible to fool the world and image they are the clever one.

That you cannot come up with any eyewitnesses, to something that millions of people witnessed, Nazi and Jew, is evidence the conspiracy you believe in, is a hoax.

It's not "somewhat unconvincing", Nessie, but I appreciate your implied concession that it is somewhat convincing.

Most Germans would not know anything at all (compartmentalization), and hardly any of those stationed further East at Jewish work camps or quarantine sites would have survived the war, given the dire needs of the front and near-certainty they would eventually be sent there (to inevitably die). Of any handful of survivors, few would find need or benefit (nor even significance) to mentioning Jews they observed in the East (given Jews and camps were nothing special or unusual), nor would they be asked these questions by any of the formal inquiries, each of which had their own predetermined conclusions they sought to 'prove'.

"Millions of people" is bogus. Jews in sealed trains sent into deeply-isolated locations, thousands at a time over the course of a few years as thousands die daily from disease and wartime deprivation, with top security and secrecy until the Soviet 'Iron Curtain' swept over them and everybody began destroying records and falsifying history with blatant lies and literal show trials is not going to deliver "millions of witnesses". Factor in motive, means, and opportunity to portray the 'vanishing' of these Jews, accounting for extraordinary power and converging victors' motives, and it's easy to recognize what has happened, here.

More importantly: what did not happen here is confirmed by the impossibility of your 'extermination' claims, as shown repeatedly and beyond any reasonable doubt; whether fuel, graves, technique, or physical or contemporary evidence or source-critical documentation of any kind, you simply fail.

Your notion that of the 6-7 million Jews arrested 1939-44, the vast majority were so infirm, they could not survive the camps and ghettos, is utter drivel. You cannot evidence a "black site" or the locations of resettlement in the East.

Were they infirm in 1939? Mostly no. But in 1941? 1942? 1943? How many years does it take to starve someone, Nessie?

The notion of a black site (or multiple, perhaps somewhat diffused into labor networks under military administration) aligns perfectly with the needs in wartime and with Final Solution policy of Jews being 'quarantined' to the East, once again confirmed by Goebbels' private diary and other statements reflecting a similar condition.

You bank entirely on the notion that the Germans and subsequently the Soviets and all of the victorious powers combined could not possibly conceal the detention of some hundreds of thousands at any given time; and yet, there are millions of individual deaths and disappearances the Soviet Union is responsible for which still remain without account.

Nazgul recently produced a list of camps, the majority of which had closure dates in 1943-4. All the ghettos had closed by mid 1944. A-B had a smaller camp population in 1944, than in 1943. You are lying that there is no evidence of a massive reduction in the Jewish population, of those arrested and imprisoned by the Nazis.

Many were opening in 1944, Nessie, including at least 86 camps for Hungarian-Jewish children in Austria. Ghettos being closed is not equivalent to Jews being gassed rather than moved. The latter was the official policy and the behavior of the victors makes abundantly clear they had much to hide in their postwar shaping of geopolitics and ideological dominance.

That is a barefaced lie. The majority of the evidence comes from Nazi sources, eyewitnesses, documents, the camp sites and circumstantial evidence of various operations involving Jews and others considered unworthy of life.

What percentage of your 'Nazi sources' are statements taken post-war which are indisputably compromised under fundamentally coercive circumstances?

How many of your eyewitnesses belonged to a collective which had a history of enmity toward Germany and/or had both potential and eventual (i.e. actual) outcome of collective or personal/ideological gain from their statements?

Which of your documents actually mention 'gassing Jews' or any 'extermination order'?

Prove the trials run by German prosecutors were show trials, where the accused were coerced.

Again: East or West German, Nessie?

Again, the majority of the evidence comes from Nazi sources and the countries they occupied or where aligned to, many of which were heavily involved in assiting the Nazis, even killing their own Jewish citizens, and they ALL admit to their responsibility. Why would Latvians, who suffered Nazi and Soviet occupation, support a hoax that had them joining with the Nazis, to shoot Jews? Why would Romania admit that they, without being occupied by the Nazis, murdered their own Jews? Those countries have no cause to continue to support a Soviet hoax.

People from the occupied countries have made specific claims which they, personally, had seldom been witnesses to. You make these general statements about what "Romania" said but "Romania" is not a person; its politicians who agree with you are the people you're speaking about and motives in as complex a dynamic as the post-WW2 landscape require careful, case-by-case analysis. Latvians post-WW2 were under Soviet rule for decades, as was all of Eastern Europe. 'Admissions' many decades later are nearly useless, as these are almost certainly not derived from direct witness statements and instead reflect the modern (late 20th and 21st century) politics. No one here claims the 'Holocaust' narrative is purely nor even primarily a Soviet hoax. Its origins and motives are complex, involving multiple actors, albeit easy to understand with proper scrutiny.

Your comment shows how you struggle to understand evidencing. When arrested Jews survived the war, it is possible to follow a documented evidential trail, from their arrest, to transportation, accommodation and liberation. People who live, leave evidence they showered and lived in camps and ghettos.

What you ignore, is the 5-6 million Jews, for whom a documentary trail starts, with their identification and arrest and the first camp or ghetto they were sent to, but then it ends, and that ending came for about 2.5 million at one of only 6 camps. Another 2 million disappeared at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen, or Latvian Auxiliary Police, or Romanian soldiers. The rest died in the camps and ghettos.

Ending a documentary trail is a simple as obscuring or eliminating the documents, Nessie. It's literally that simple. It doesn't prove that everyone on the 'missing documents' is dead, let alone 'gassed' by a submarine engine at a property sorting camp. Jews already living in the East where more than a million German soldiers were killed by partisan activity during the war were much more of a threat and liability, placing them in harm's way as potential partisans or accomplices. Whether through reprisals or other security-focused means, no one denies many Jews were shot and killed in these territories. Germany had little sympathy insofar as carrying out drastic security measures, particularly in light of the ruthless slaughter of German citizens by unjustifiable Allied fire-bombs. Where you fail, however, is precisely in the category which the victors' both (1) need acceptance of (to secure their intended postwar dynamic) and (2) lack any credible evidence for: that is, 'unique and extraordinary German barbarism (and Jewish victimhood)'. Only with this comic-book-style narrative of 'gassing genocide' can the Allies come close to presenting themselves as the "good guys", all things considered, and only with this can Zionist [and Jewish organizational] goals have come as far along as they have.

[Nessie]

There is no evidence of any coercion of the Nazis tried by German prosecutors, for crimes they admitted took place and for which there is a ton of corroborating evidence.

Would that be East German, Nessie? Or just the West German trials which took place 20 years later, once precedents were firmly set?

East germany hardly ran any trials, odd, since you claim it was a Soviet inspired hoax. You would think the East Germans would be at the forefront of supporting the Soviets. Instead, it was the West. Why would the West support a Soviet hoax during the Cold War?

As for presedents, they were set by the 1960s, since all the evidence was adding to what was already proven, mass killings, not mass resettlement. To break the precendent needed evidence of mass resettlement and there was none.

PR cannot produce a single eyewitness to TII being a property sorting centre, or evidence what happened to the people once all their property had been taken from them.

Multiple Jewish witnesses reported sorting property on-site. Mixing truth with lies is a best practice in lying. You only assume a significant number of "the people" (who?) you imagine ever set foot on T-II. You have no evidence for this, only baseless and often proven-false claims from politically-charged and vindictive or extremely coerced statements.

You are lying I have no evidence of mass arrivals at TII. Documents record mass arrivals and every witness, Jewish, Polish and Nazi speaks of mass arrivals. None speak to it being purely a property sorting centre. You lie to defelct from your lack of evidence.

Evidence crematoriums, for which there are no claims they were ever used for homicidal purposes, that are modified to contain undressing rooms, gas chambers and ovens for multiple corpse cremations. You will not be able to. The A-B Kremas were unique.

Undressing corpses is what happens at a morgue, and was likely managed with special care during a typhus epidemic and louse-infested clothing. You have no evidence of "multiple corpse cremations" as any standard practice, and face strong evidence to the contrary, ranging from industry norms to unresolved problems with maintenance and overall feasibility. The minimal body fat of any Jews allegedly cremated by the millions also slaps you in the face -- that is, unless you'd claim the ghettos were exquisite, all-you-can-eat buffets -- as you require normal body fat content for your "multiple corpse cremations" to come close to lowering your bottom-line time and fuel requirements.

Corpses are normally dressed, rather than undressed, before being place inside coffins, prior to cremation. They may be stored naked prior to that. No normal crematorium has an undressing room, gas chambers and then ovens for mass corpse cremations, as proven by multiple documents and witnesses. The Kremas did not function like normal crematoriums.

It's a catch-22; either the Jews were well-fed for years (strange if the goal was to 'exterminate') or they were not cremated at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Which is it?

Jews needed for work were fed, though not well fed. Those not needed were murdered.

I see you say potential, not evidenced, since you know Poland had lots of forest and wood yards and there is evidence of wood being delivered to Sobibor, ordered from one of the wood yards.

I got a firewood delivery last year for an outdoor barbecue with friends. That doesn't mean I have since received 50,000 more such deliveries for burning corpses.

But do you realize that this is the same essential logic you're presenting, here, for your unevidenced AR camp fuel deliveries?

If you got a wood delivery, that is proof you can get wood delivered. You are lying when you claim deliveries are unevidenced, when I just gave you a witness to ordering and getting wood delivered. Your lying is going off the scale.

That is you, taking a beating, with unevidenced claims.

Uh-huh.

I constantly catch you out lying that I have no evidence, when it is you who has no evidence.

Your argument is that every single German was too scared to reveal the truth about what happened to the Jews during WWII, is somewhat unconvincing. It appeals only to people who like conspiracies, think it is possible to fool the world and image they are the clever one.

That you cannot come up with any eyewitnesses, to something that millions of people witnessed, Nazi and Jew, is evidence the conspiracy you believe in, is a hoax.

It's not "somewhat unconvincing", Nessie, but I appreciate your implied concession that it is somewhat convincing.

Most Germans would not know anything at all (compartmentalization), and hardly any of those stationed further East at Jewish work camps or quarantine sites would have survived the war, given the dire needs of the front and near-certainty they would eventually be sent there (to inevitably die). Of any handful of survivors, few would find need or benefit (nor even significance) to mentioning Jews they observed in the East (given Jews and camps were nothing special or unusual), nor would they be asked these questions by any of the formal inquiries, each of which had their own predetermined conclusions they sought to 'prove'.

"Millions of people" is bogus. Jews in sealed trains sent into deeply-isolated locations, thousands at a time over the course of a few years as thousands die daily from disease and wartime deprivation, with top security and secrecy until the Soviet 'Iron Curtain' swept over them and everybody began destroying records and falsifying history with blatant lies and literal show trials is not going to deliver "millions of witnesses". Factor in motive, means, and opportunity to portray the 'vanishing' of these Jews, accounting for extraordinary power and converging victors' motives, and it's easy to recognize what has happened, here.

Why would the Nazis hide millions of Jews, in 1944-5, knowing they were being accused of mass murdering them? Where is their motive in that? The Nazis did not have the means or opportunity to accommodate and guard millions of Jews in 1944-5, on top of tying to defend Germany.

More importantly: what did not happen here is confirmed by the impossibility of your 'extermination' claims, as shown repeatedly and beyond any reasonable doubt; whether fuel, graves, technique, or physical or contemporary evidence or source-critical documentation of any kind, you simply fail.

Your illogical arguments from incredulity do not prove the impossibility of mass murder. What really is impossible, it the hiding of millions of Jews in 1944-5 and the mass conspiracy you allege.

Your notion that of the 6-7 million Jews arrested 1939-44, the vast majority were so infirm, they could not survive the camps and ghettos, is utter drivel. You cannot evidence a "black site" or the locations of resettlement in the East.

Were they infirm in 1939? Mostly no. But in 1941? 1942? 1943? How many years does it take to starve someone, Nessie?

You are falling apart, as you now suggest the Nazis starved millions of Jews to death, to get round your disbelief they were gassed and shot.

The notion of a black site (or multiple, perhaps somewhat diffused into labor networks under military administration) aligns perfectly with the needs in wartime and with Final Solution policy of Jews being 'quarantined' to the East, once again confirmed by Goebbels' private diary and other statements reflecting a similar condition.

Which department ran the operation? What was it called? Name senior Nazis involved.

You bank entirely on the notion that the Germans and subsequently the Soviets and all of the victorious powers combined could not possibly conceal the detention of some hundreds of thousands at any given time; and yet, there are millions of individual deaths and disappearances the Soviet Union is responsible for which still remain without account.

You bank entirely on the notion that 1939-44, the Nazis arrested and hid millions of Jews, causing the rest of the world to believe they had been killed.

Show me where the Soviets supposedly killed millions of people, but in fact they lived and it was a hoax.

Nazgul recently produced a list of camps, the majority of which had closure dates in 1943-4. All the ghettos had closed by mid 1944. A-B had a smaller camp population in 1944, than in 1943. You are lying that there is no evidence of a massive reduction in the Jewish population, of those arrested and imprisoned by the Nazis.

Many were opening in 1944, Nessie, including at least 86 camps for Hungarian-Jewish children in Austria. Ghettos being closed is not equivalent to Jews being gassed rather than moved. The latter was the official policy and the behavior of the victors makes abundantly clear they had much to hide in their postwar shaping of geopolitics and ideological dominance.

Show me the camp and ghetto populations in 1944, and prove millions of Jews were still alive. Yes, Hungarian Jews sent to Austria in 1944 survived, there is evidence of that. Do the same for those sent to Auschwitz.

That is a barefaced lie. The majority of the evidence comes from Nazi sources, eyewitnesses, documents, the camp sites and circumstantial evidence of various operations involving Jews and others considered unworthy of life.

What percentage of your 'Nazi sources' are statements taken post-war which are indisputably compromised under fundamentally coercive circumstances?

None, when it came to the West German and later unified German trials. There are other examples, such as the Fedorenko trial in the US, that determined there was sufficient evidence to deport him to stand trial in the USSR.

How many of your eyewitnesses belonged to a collective which had a history of enmity toward Germany and/or had both potential and eventual (i.e. actual) outcome of collective or personal/ideological gain from their statements?

None of the German, Austrian or Ukrainian eyewitnesses.

Which of your documents actually mention 'gassing Jews' or any 'extermination order'?

None for gassings. There was an order for the euthanising of the disabled and many documents explicity about mass shootings. Documents at A-B record the construction of gas chambers for a special action involving disable prisoners, Jews and Hungarians.

Which of your documents explicity record the mass resettlement of Jews in the east, naming locations they were sent to and populations in 1944-5?

Prove the trials run by German prosecutors were show trials, where the accused were coerced.

Again: East or West German, Nessie?

East, West and unified. Add in Austria to that.

Again, the majority of the evidence comes from Nazi sources and the countries they occupied or where aligned to, many of which were heavily involved in assiting the Nazis, even killing their own Jewish citizens, and they ALL admit to their responsibility. Why would Latvians, who suffered Nazi and Soviet occupation, support a hoax that had them joining with the Nazis, to shoot Jews? Why would Romania admit that they, without being occupied by the Nazis, murdered their own Jews? Those countries have no cause to continue to support a Soviet hoax.

People from the occupied countries have made specific claims which they, personally, had seldom been witnesses to. You make these general statements about what "Romania" said but "Romania" is not a person; its politicians who agree with you are the people you're speaking about and motives in as complex a dynamic as the post-WW2 landscape require careful, case-by-case analysis. Latvians post-WW2 were under Soviet rule for decades, as was all of Eastern Europe. 'Admissions' many decades later are nearly useless, as these are almost certainly not derived from direct witness statements and instead reflect the modern (late 20th and 21st century) politics. No one here claims the 'Holocaust' narrative is purely nor even primarily a Soviet hoax. Its origins and motives are complex, involving multiple actors, albeit easy to understand with proper scrutiny.

By Romania, I mean successive governments, historians and how they have recorded and memorialised what happened to their Jewish citizens. Every European government aligned to or occupied by the Nazis admits to at least some cooperation with the identification, deportation or killing of their Jewish citizens.

Why would the Dutch cooperate with the Soviets, with a Soviet derived hoax? The Dutch have offical government and academic websites about what happened to the Jews and various museums. They admit to having one of the highest death rates, because they were so cooperative in identifying and registering Jews. What is in it, for the Dutch, to support a hoax?

Your comment shows how you struggle to understand evidencing. When arrested Jews survived the war, it is possible to follow a documented evidential trail, from their arrest, to transportation, accommodation and liberation. People who live, leave evidence they showered and lived in camps and ghettos.

What you ignore, is the 5-6 million Jews, for whom a documentary trail starts, with their identification and arrest and the first camp or ghetto they were sent to, but then it ends, and that ending came for about 2.5 million at one of only 6 camps. Another 2 million disappeared at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen, or Latvian Auxiliary Police, or Romanian soldiers. The rest died in the camps and ghettos.

Ending a documentary trail is a simple as obscuring or eliminating the documents, Nessie. It's literally that simple. It doesn't prove that everyone on the 'missing documents' is dead, let alone 'gassed' by a submarine engine at a property sorting camp. Jews already living in the East where more than a million German soldiers were killed by partisan activity during the war were much more of a threat and liability, placing them in harm's way as potential partisans or accomplices. Whether through reprisals or other security-focused means, no one denies many Jews were shot and killed in these territories. Germany had little sympathy insofar as carrying out drastic security measures, particularly in light of the ruthless slaughter of German citizens by unjustifiable Allied fire-bombs. Where you fail, however, is precisely in the category which the victors' both (1) need acceptance of (to secure their intended postwar dynamic) and (2) lack any credible evidence for: that is, 'unique and extraordinary German barbarism (and Jewish victimhood)'. Only with this comic-book-style narrative of 'gassing genocide' can the Allies come close to presenting themselves as the "good guys", all things considered, and only with this can Zionist [and Jewish organizational] goals have come as far along as they have.

There is a ton of evidence for mass murder by shooting and gassings. You do a lot of lying to suggest there is not. The hoax you allege is unevidenced and confused, as you cannot explain why the Dutch or Romanians would actively support a hoax, about their involvement in the killing hundreds of thousands of their Jewish citizens.

[TlsMS93]

These countries can only claim that their Jews were deported; they cannot support their real fate after they left their territory. Therefore, they can only be accomplices in deportation and not in extermination.

[Nessie]

These countries can only claim that their Jews were deported; they cannot support their real fate after they left their territory. Therefore, they can only be accomplices in deportation and not in extermination.

Latvia, Lithuanian, Poland, Ukraine, Romania and Serbia all variously admit to their citizens killing Jews, whether by shooting, or at the AR camps.

Of the Western and Southern countries, only Denmark and Finland actively protected the vast majority of their Jews, with only a handful arrested and subsequently killed. Norway and France also protected large numbers of their Jews, preventing their arrest. The Dutch on the other hand were very cooperative.

How did the Danes and Finns get to not play along with the hoax? Why would the other countries accept varying responsibility and assistance, causing them shame, when it is a hoax?

[TlsMS93]

Are you going to tell the Poles that they participated in the Holocaust and see what they will say. There was already a lot of criticism when the media reported on the Internet about "Polish concentration camps". As for these other countries, like the Baltic countries, the anti-communists carried out their own pogroms. It's not even possible to say that it was something in collaboration with the Nazis.