The Jews Went to Work? Organization Todt

[Keen]

Revisionist assertions of mass resettlement are based on a 'process of elimination' approach. The claimed numbers at Belzec are impossible, therefore mass resettlement occurred, therefore conspiracy with the dozens of witnesses occurred, despite all lack of evidence.

Q: "Can it be said that the remains of at least 100 jews have been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically / conclusively proven to currently lie in any of the 33 alleged Belzec graves?"

Grok's Answer: "No, it cannot be said that the remains of at least 100 Jews have been archaeologically, forensically, scientifically, or conclusively proven to currently lie in any specific one of the 33 mass graves at Belzec... these are extrapolations based on volume, not conclusive forensic or scientific proof of a specific number like 100 individuals in any one grave... Thus, no single grave meets the threshold of conclusive proof for containing at least 100 Jewish remains.

Q: "Can it be said that the remains of at least 6 jews have been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically / conclusively proven to currently lie in any of the 33 alleged Belzec graves?"

Grok's Answer: "No, it cannot be said that the remains of at least 6 Jews have been archaeologically, forensically, scientifically, or conclusively proven to currently lie in any specific one of the 33 mass graves at Belzec... no specific grave has a verified count of individuals, even for a number as low as 6... Thus, no single grave meets the threshold of conclusive proof for containing at least 6 Jewish remains."

bomsaway, you are more than welcome to correct the record if you think something is in error:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=501

[bombsaway]

Revisionist assertions of mass resettlement are based on a 'process of elimination' approach. The claimed numbers at Belzec are impossible, therefore mass resettlement occurred, therefore conspiracy with the dozens of witnesses occurred, despite all lack of evidence.

Q: "Can it be said that the remains of at least 100 jews have been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically / conclusively proven to currently lie in any of the 33 alleged Belzec graves?"

Grok's Answer: "No, it cannot be said that the remains of at least 100 Jews have been archaeologically, forensically, scientifically, or conclusively proven to currently lie in any specific one of the 33 mass graves at Belzec... these are extrapolations based on volume, not conclusive forensic or scientific proof of a specific number like 100 individuals in any one grave... Thus, no single grave meets the threshold of conclusive proof for containing at least 100 Jewish remains.

Q: "Can it be said that the remains of at least 6 jews have been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically / conclusively proven to currently lie in any of the 33 alleged Belzec graves?"

Grok's Answer: "No, it cannot be said that the remains of at least 6 Jews have been archaeologically, forensically, scientifically, or conclusively proven to currently lie in any specific one of the 33 mass graves at Belzec... no specific grave has a verified count of individuals, even for a number as low as 6... Thus, no single grave meets the threshold of conclusive proof for containing at least 6 Jewish remains."

bomsaway, you are more than welcome to correct the record if you think something is in error:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=501

If you're relying on AI, please post the link to the chat for full transparency. We can discuss all of this in an appropriate thread, I suggest here, where you did not respond to me https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=14740#p14740

I think you should respond to my above question directly, because it gets to the heart of where I think you're going wrong. If you choose not to respond, I'm going to consider you a pure troll (95% troll I can deal with) and will be less likely to respond to you in the future, probably only for the laughs.

[Stubble]

[...]

Sir, do you mind if I ask you a couple questions before we take a long stroll down this path you just laid out here?

One thing I want to ask you is, were jews indeed 'sheep dipped' into OT during Barbarossa? I remind you of the Yad Vashim article covering this I linked on page 10. Now, given this proven example, do you think it is reasonable to entertain the idea that this program was broader than that, and to look for evidence of such?

Another question I have for you is, do you have a 'hard' estimate for the dead at the Bug River camps? Looking at the studies conducted over the years, it looks like the grave space will accommodate roughly 10% of the claim, at each camp.

My last question is with regard to the 'calorie crunch' after the Soviet slash and burn during their withdrawal and in the ensuing couple of years. Now, would this scenario be the same as 'the preplanned genocide of the jews of Europe'? Or would that scenario be seen as a more pragmatic approach to a resource problem? I also want to know if the coming pivot here is to say 'the nazis planned this famine because they hated slavs'. I think that's where this line of attack usually goes.

In my eye, the 'calorie crunch' argument is the one trotted out when the 'it was a preplanned' genocide' argument falls flat. Then the argument gets bullnosed back to 'it was preplanned genocide' but this time through the 'starvation plan'.

The way you see the German mind, soul and people is radically different than the way I see them. They did not shove men women and children in to gas chambers disguised as shower rooms and murder them en masse, bury them in grave space that wasn't there and cremate them with wood they did not have.

People were not taken to the train station, in the tens of thousands, by a handful of men, laid down in a pit like sardines and shot at a rate of 1 every 18 seconds either. Just from a crowd control perspective, the idea is absolutely ludicrous.

Dilution was the solution to the security problem and it made manufacturing harder to shut down having it spread across the territory. The jews were split down into groups of between 30 and 1,000 and put to work doing what tasks they could handle.

At least, such is my hypothesis. I still have documents to go through, evidence to gather, and a presentation to compile. I will get there, give me time.

My current focus is Ostland. If you have any suggestions for documents that may yield the type of information I'm digging for, I'm listening. I'm currently still neck deep in 't' series. After that, it looks like I need to look at NS-4 to examine the 'calorie crunch'. I've got it in the que, but, I had it further down the list. I was personally eager to go into transport documents next and to look for curious or missing stuff. We have departure and arrival, right? If a train shows up an hour or 4 late to a stop, that's probably a clue something is missing in there.

I will continue to press, the grave space at the Bug River camps is woefully insufficient, and there is a sizable number of persons that are missing. Missing does not mean murdered, bodies in a hole in the ground would.

[Callafangers]

1.42 Lodz ghetto to Chelmno (10,003)
2-4.42 Lodz ghetto to Chelmno (34,073)
3-4.42 Lublin ghetto to Belzec (26,000)
3-4.42 Lwow ghetto to Belzec (15,000)
5.42 first deportations from Silesia to Auschwitz, thousands, no registrations
5.42 Lodz ghetto - 10,000 mostly Reich Jews to Chelmno
5 to 10.42 Reich to Maly Trostenets and Baranovichi, Weissruthenien (17,000, a very few survivors)
5.42 Kreis Pulawy, Distrikt Lublin to Sobibor (16,882, one known survivor selected at Sobibor)
5.42 Kreis Krasnystaw, Distrikt Lublin to Sobibor (8-11,000, survivors include Dov Freiberg from Turobin)
6.42 Krakow ghetto to Belzec (5000, no survivors known)
6.42 Slovakia and Reich to Sobibor (17,000)
7.42 Kreis Rzeszow, Distrikt Krakau to Belzec (22,000)
7.42 Kreis Debica, Distrikt Krakau to Belzec (12,000)
7-9.42 Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka (250,000, at least 5000 shot in Warsaw)
8.42 Radom ghetto to Treblinka (25,000)
8.42 Lwow ghetto to Belzec (40,000 noted by Wehrmacht as deported, about 2000 shot on spot)
9.42 Lodz ghetto to Chelmno ('Gehsperre' action, 15,681)
9-10.42 Czestochowa ghetto to Treblinka (40,000)
2.43 Bialystok ghetto to Treblinka (10,000, some selections, 1000 shot on spot)
3.43 Thrace and Macedonia (Bulgarian annexed territories) to Treblinka (11,343, no survivors)
3 to 5.43 Salonika ghetto to Auschwitz (42,000, about 4,000 selected and registered)
3 to 7.43 Netherlands (Westerbork) to Sobibor (34,000, selections for camps in Lublin district, 18 survivors)
8.43 Sosnowiec-Bedzin ghettos to Auschwitz (30,000, thousands selected and registered)
6-7.44 Lodz ghetto to Chelmno (7,196)

and so on. not a complete roster.

to which we surely need to add the shooting actions, again by municipality and district, since some revisionists have been tempted to 'resettle' these victims as well
11-12.41 Riga at least 25,000 shot at Rumbula (29,400 Latvian Jews registered in ghetto beforehand, 4000 after)
1.42 Kharkiv ghetto liquidated, up to 10,000 shot at Drobitskii Yar (no 1005 action here, sample exhumation and survey)
3.42 Minsk ghetto 3400 shot, had been 18000 native Jews in ghetto as of January
5.42 Lida district, 16,000 shot (as noted in Kube's letter to Lohse of 31.7.42 and other sources)
6.42 Glebokie district, Weissruthenien: 10,000 shot by Trupp Lepel of EK 9 from over the border
7.42 Minsk ghetto 10,000 shot and gassed, 3500 from Reich and 6500 natives, 9500 native and 2500 Reich Jews left in ghetto in autumn 1942
10.42 Brest ghetto 16,000 taken to Bronnaia Gora and shot, fully registered before this
11.42 Pinsk ghetto 16,200 shot out of town, 1000 left alive to 12.42, also a local register
1.43 Lwow ghetto - 10,000 of officially 24,000 Jews taken to the 'Piaski' site and shot, 15344 officially in Julag in 3.43
2.43 Slutsk ghetto 3300 shot and burned alive in ghetto liquidation
4.43 Oszmiana and surrounding ghettos in border strip of Lithuania: 4000 shot at Ponary outside Vilnius
11.43 Poniatowa, Trawniki, Majdanek and Lublin city camps 43,000 shot in Operation 'Harvest Festival'

and so on. not a complete roster.

This level of detail is the one used in conventional histories, and each of the above has varying levels of direct evidence, documents in many cases, plus contemporary reports and witnesses.

I appreciate the list but you missed my most important request:

Absolutely, and a healthy helping of intensive source criticism. Please ensure you describe your process for this, including chain-of-custody, for each numerical figure you cite or reference.

The bolded portion above is a request for what has remained the most obvious gap in your presentation thus far. Nick, do you understand that it is insufficient to claim '30,000 this', and '22,000' that, when the sources from which these figures are derived are anything but impartial?

You refer to some instances of what you claim to be neutral corroboration for some of these but, as I have already shown with your earlier '72,000' figure of the July 1943 conference, your interpretations are far from cut-and-dry and apparently sometimes far from what is actually said.

Thus, to be completely clear, here's what is needed from you:

• For any figures you cite, indicate the original source(s) for the figure and express how and why you find them to be a necessary reflection of actual events (and not based on motives or opportunism).
• When there have been (or potentially have been) multiple hands along the chain of custody of any sources/reports provided, conduct the same review (checking for potential motives/opportunism) for each 'link' in that chain.

If you are unable to do this (or even if you don't have this at-the-ready), this speaks volumes to the glaring flaw in your methodology; that is, further confirming that you evade source criticism and disregard chain of custody with all of the 'Holocaust evidence' you collect... which is exactly what some revisionists have been calling you out for all along.

Please prove me wrong by demonstrating your intimate familiarity with exactly who originally made the claims of Jewish destruction in each of these areas, and your reasons for why we should interpret their reports as necessarily accurate, measured, and honest.

Remember, your proof of their honesty and accuracy is paramount, as you're working against a lack of remains at all of the alleged murder sites. Oh, and a glaring lack of fuel/wood (and records thereof) for the biggest cremation operation in world history many times over.

[bombsaway]

Looking at the studies conducted over the years, it looks like the grave space will accommodate roughly 10% of the claim, at each camp.

Don't investigate this, just tell me, what is your confidence level that this statement is true?

[Callafangers]

Don't investigate this

[bombsaway]

Don't investigate this

haha, and you can tell me what your confidence is that when Korherr mentioned a decrease of 4 million Jews in "Europe" between 37 and 43, he wasn't including Poland/the GG as part of that.

[Callafangers]

haha, and you can tell me what your confidence is that when Korherr mentioned a decrease of 4 million Jews in "Europe" between 37 and 43, he wasn't including Poland/the GG as part of that.

Korherr is explicitly stating that the Jews in question will be sifted/filtered through the camps in the General Government. It is also very clear he considers these Jews as departures and his recording of the decrease of 4 million for accounting purposes would have included this.

Thus, I would say I am pushing 98-99%.

And how confident are you that there are anything close to 800,000 Jews buried under Treblinka, bombsaway (or even, say, 400,000)?

[bombsaway]

haha, and you can tell me what your confidence is that when Korherr mentioned a decrease of 4 million Jews in "Europe" between 37 and 43, he wasn't including Poland/the GG as part of that.

Korherr is explicitly stating that the Jews in question will be sifted/filtered through the camps in the General Government. It is also very clear he considers these Jews as departures and his recording of the decrease of 4 million for accounting purposes would have included this.

Thus, I would say I am pushing 98-99%.

And how confident are you that there are anything close to 800,000 Jews buried under Treblinka, bombsaway (or even, say, 400,000)?

I asked you if he was including Poland/ GG as part of "Europe"

I don't know how much ashes there still are at Treblinka, so I wouldn't take that bet. Some accounts say they were move.out of the camp. But that hundreds of thousands were killed there, I'd say 99.999

[Nessie]

...

Yes, you guys now ask 'where's the wood?', but keeping even a fraction of these people alive would have required more wood over a prolonged period just for cooking fuel and minimal heating (unless you're happy for them to have frozen to death in the winter of 1942/3, somewhere).

I like turning so-called revisionist arguments back on them. It is for another day, but they will be pressed to explain where all the wood needed to keep millions of Jews alive came from.

[Nessie]

... Oh, and a glaring lack of fuel/wood (and records thereof) for the biggest cremation operation in world history many times over.

Where is the evidence of the wood needed to keep millions of Jews alive in 1944? I need to see records of mass deliveries of firewood to all the camps, from primary sources, along with evidence from aerial photos showing wood piles, but no witness evidence, as all of the witnesses are proven liars.

[Callafangers]

I asked you if he was including Poland/ GG as part of "Europe"

I don't know how much ashes there still are at Treblinka, so I wouldn't take that bet. Some accounts say they were move.out of the camp. But that hundreds of thousands were killed there, I'd say 99.999

Either I was not clear or you simply missed my earlier point regarding Korherr. The point is: it doesn't matter whether Korherr considered the GG as part of Europe given that for his accounting purposes, it is clear he considered Jews being 'sifted' (in the GG) as having left Europe.

Regarding your 99.999% certainty, thank you for putting a number on your Dunning-Kruger level of certainty.

Number of 'witnesses' saying gassed Jews were buried on-site at Treblinka? 99%
Number of Jewish corpses that should be at Treblinka? 800,000
Amount of wood that was needed for cremations at Treblinka? some 400,000,000 kg
Amount of corpses' worth of material actually confirmed at Treblinka? Low thousands or tens of thousands at most, even less if we are critical of the excavations and findings (Keen's approach)
Amount of wood that records show was delivered? 0 kg (but let's say 100 kg, for a margin of error)

bombsaway's certainty of 800,000 Jews killed there? 99.999%

Priceless.

[Callafangers]

Where is the evidence of the wood needed to keep millions of Jews alive in 1944?

My claims are not extraordinary. You have the burden of proof.

[Nessie]

Where is the evidence of the wood needed to keep millions of Jews alive in 1944?

My claims are not extraordinary. You have the burden of proof.

Your claim that millions of Jews were not killed and were instead in camps in 1944, which was subject to a massive cover-up to hide the evidence of that, is extraordinary. This thread was your attempt to reinforce that belief, by using the supposed lack of information about OT, as evidence of the cover-up. Sanity Check has been providing you with the information that you did not think was available, so you are now making him jump through hoops to prove the sources are correct.

Fact is, historians can prove, primarily from Nazi documents, that the millions of Jews that they arrested and sent to camps and ghettos, declined throughout the war, till by 1945, only a few hundred thousand were left. The reason why that happened, was mass killings and working Jews to death. The Nazis admitted that and they provided zero evidence of millions of Jews till alive.

[Nessie]

...
Korherr is explicitly stating that the Jews in question will be sifted/filtered through the camps in the General Government. It is also very clear he considers these Jews as departures and his recording of the decrease of 4 million for accounting purposes would have included this.

Thus, I would say I am pushing 98-99%.

Please list your evidence of mass departures back out of the AR camps. Regarding that evidence;

"To be completely clear, here's what is needed from you:
For any figures you cite, indicate the original source(s) for the figure and express how and why you find them to be a necessary reflection of actual events (and not based on motives or opportunism).
When there have been (or potentially have been) multiple hands along the chain of custody of any sources/reports provided, conduct the same review (checking for potential motives/opportunism) for each 'link' in that chain."

Thanks.