What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

[PrudentRegret]

The strict-coupling between the questions of "What happened to the deportees" and "What was the purpose of T-II" is something I reject. They are separate questions, although they may be related. If the deportees were "sifted through the camps of General Government" then it's not necessarily true they all step foot in T-II in the first place. The existence of T-II is explained without the assumption that all of those deportees ever walked inside T-II in the first place.

Nessie, do you admit that in the many documents pertaining to "Reinhardt" at Auschwitz, it explicitly denoted:

• Personnel involved in the economic operation
• Facilities involved in the economic operation at Kanada-II
• Operations pertaining to property delousing/sorting/storage
• Did NOT refer to the extermination operation you claim was at Birkenau

What I have described is the mainstream position! They just take a wildly contradictory view of what Reinhardt denoted in GG whereas I am saying it denoted the same in both.

[Nessie]

The strict-coupling between the questions of "What happened to the deportees" and "What was the purpose of T-II" is something I reject.

Of course you do, you need to, to make your hypothesis work for you. No historian, or other investigator, would do what you do. The so-called revisionists who have tried to evidence what TII was used for, have also not de-coupled what happened to the people and the property. You are truly unique.

They are separate questions, although they may be related. If the deportees were "sifted through the camps of General Government" then it's not necessarily true they all step foot in T-II in the first place. The existence of T-II is explained without the assumption that all of those deportees ever walked inside T-II in the first place.

Nessie, do you admit that in the many documents pertaining to "Reinhardt" at Auschwitz, it explicitly denoted:

• Personnel involved in the economic operation
• Facilities involved in the economic operation
• Operations pertaining to property delousing/sorting/storage
• Did NOT refer to the extermination operation you claim was at Birkenau

I have already made it clear, that you cherry-pick the evidence relating to property theft, sorting and selling. The AR camp personnel all came from T4, so they were not picked for "economic" reasons. No AR document refers to killings, instead, there was a specific reference to secrecy.

[borjastick]

The sneering by Nessie of any evidence that he doesn't like and wants to ignore and have removed from any record book or discussion is palpable at the very least.

I have come to the conclusion that he is a paid agent. Probably with Nick Terry too though at the moment he has a strange bedfellow in the history department of Exeter University who goes by the name of Illan Pappe. Must make for odd coffee time conversations if they talk at all.

Nessie as we have seen for a very long time doesn't care about facts, logic and evidence if they don't support his narrative and engineered outcomes to the holocaust story. The fact that most normal people can easily see right through the history and official story of the holocaust in general and Treblinka as a very good case in point flies right over his strange little head. He needs to earn a living somehow so a regular cheque from israel is welcome though the money actually comes from the US.

Never use the word 'debate' and Nessie's name in the same sentence because it ain't going to happen. He is a provocateur pure and simple and will go to his death bed suffering from two strange delusions; firstly that the holocaust of 6m jews actually happened and nothing will change his mind and second not understanding that his extreme case of Trump Derangement Syndrome could so easily have been treated.

[Nessie]

The sneering by Nessie of any evidence that he doesn't like and wants to ignore and have removed from any record book or discussion is palpable at the very least.

What evidence is that? Name the eyewitness, document, physical, archaeological or circumstantial evidence that I supposedly ignore and want removed.

I have come to the conclusion that he is a paid agent. Probably with Nick Terry too though at the moment he has a strange bedfellow in the history department of Exeter University who goes by the name of Illan Pappe. Must make for odd coffee time conversations if they talk at all.

Nessie as we have seen for a very long time doesn't care about facts, logic and evidence if they don't support his narrative and engineered outcomes to the holocaust story.

So-called revisionists are unable to produce a chronological, evidenced revised history of the camp. It is they who do not care about facts, logic and evidence.

The fact that most normal people can easily see right through the history and official story of the holocaust in general and Treblinka as a very good case in point flies right over his strange little head. He needs to earn a living somehow so a regular cheque from israel is welcome though the money actually comes from the US.

Never use the word 'debate' and Nessie's name in the same sentence because it ain't going to happen. He is a provocateur pure and simple and will go to his death bed suffering from two strange delusions; firstly that the holocaust of 6m jews actually happened and nothing will change his mind and second not understanding that his extreme case of Trump Derangement Syndrome could so easily have been treated.

[Callafangers]

From another recent thread, I realize this probably fits better here:

T4 wasn't a medical operation, quite the opposite, unless by medical treatment one means killing. Nevertheless, which medical professionals were involved with Reinhardt camps / Chelmno? Names please.

Nurses from T-4 going to AR camps (incomplete data, from holocaustresearchproject.org):

Karl Steubl
Paul Bredow
Johannes Eisold
Hermann Felfe
Alfred Forker
Otto Horn
Robert Jurs (also a painter, clerk)
Kurt Seidel
Fritz Zaspel
Johannes Klahan
Konrad Fritz

There was also Max Moller, a nurse who worked for Aktion Reinhardt having never been at T-4. Additionally, more than 1/4th of all AR camp staff were never at T-4.

In addition to nurses, the AR camps also employed numerous cooks and kitchen staff :

Kurt Hubert Franz
Rudolf Bar
Erwin Fichtner
Hans Girtzig
Ferdinand Gromer
August Hengst
Gustav Munzberger
Hanz Zanker
Josef Hirtreiter (also a clerk)

But fascinatingly, the largest category of staff coming over from T4 to AR had shared experience as economic and registration clerks/managers :

Gotlieb Hering
Karl Franz Reichleitner
Gerhardt Borner
Werner Borowski
Erich Dietze
Josef Hirtreiter
Alfred Ittner
Robert Jurs
Friedrich Lorent
Herbert Scharfe
Ernst Schemmel
Hans-Heinz Schutt
Friedrich Tauscher
Arthur Walter

Other former T-4 roles included driver, crematory staff, building maintenance, metalworker, gardener, animal caretaker, etc.

Just how equipped were nurses, cooks, and economic/registry clerks and managers at a place allegedly involving no medical services, minimal cooking, little or no economic operations, and no registrations?



Thank you for hand-delivering another slam-dunk evidence of what really happened at AR camps, bombsaway.

[Stubble]

I was thinking about posting it to 'The T4 Connection' thread as well.

Great post!

[Nessie]

Now deal with the facts that

1 - none of the staff listed agree with the property sorting centre hypothesis
2 - the hypothesis fails to evidence what happened to the people the property was stolen from.

[Callafangers]

Now deal with the facts that

1 - none of the staff listed agree with the property sorting centre hypothesis
2 - the hypothesis fails to evidence what happened to the people the property was stolen from.

Is your assessment of whether or not they agreed taken from statements they made during the war? Or while under enemy capture?

As for the people property was confiscated or reclaimed from (at least partly to compensate Germany for decades of subversive abuses and two world wars), they aren't where you said they were buried. This leaves the documented transit [Final Solution / evacuation] policy as the sole evidenced outcome.

[HansHill]

they aren't where you said they were buried. This leaves the documented transit [Final Solution / evacuation] policy as the sole evidenced outcome.

It really is as simple as this. It should be the easiest task in the world to show us the remains of 800,000 people that they guarantee us are there. Along with the previous, since emptied, and far larger, grave space capacity for 800,000 people where again, they guarantee us, those fully intact 800,000 bodies lay for months.

That's basically the end of the conversation, so i will laugh at whatever slop is to follow.

[Nessie]

Now deal with the facts that

1 - none of the staff listed agree with the property sorting centre hypothesis
2 - the hypothesis fails to evidence what happened to the people the property was stolen from.

Is your assessment of whether or not they agreed taken from statements they made during the war? Or while under enemy capture?

It was at no point, during the war, when they were captured or when they were put on trial, in West Germany, by German prosecutors, or after they had served their sentences and were free men again. It also includes those who fled to South America and were never arrested. Not one single member of staff from AR, said it was a purely financial operation.

As for the people property was confiscated or reclaimed from (at least partly to compensate Germany for decades of subversive abuses and two world wars), they aren't where you said they were buried. This leaves the documented transit [Final Solution / evacuation] policy as the sole evidenced outcome.

Over a million Jews are transported to the AR camps, where they are stripped naked, have their hair cut and everything they own, including their underwear, spectacles, walking sticks, shoes and the gold from their teeth is taken.

What happened to them next?

[Nessie]

they aren't where you said they were buried. This leaves the documented transit [Final Solution / evacuation] policy as the sole evidenced outcome.

It really is as simple as this. It should be the easiest task in the world to show us the remains of 800,000 people that they guarantee us are there. Along with the previous, since emptied, and far larger, grave space capacity for 800,000 people where again, they guarantee us, those fully intact 800,000 bodies lay for months.

That's basically the end of the conversation, so i will laugh at whatever slop is to follow.

The task of evidencing the mass graves, has been done. You just pretend it has not been done, to deflect from your lack of evidence to prove what did actually happen inside TII.

[HansHill]

they aren't where you said they were buried. This leaves the documented transit [Final Solution / evacuation] policy as the sole evidenced outcome.

It really is as simple as this. It should be the easiest task in the world to show us the remains of 800,000 people that they guarantee us are there. Along with the previous, since emptied, and far larger, grave space capacity for 800,000 people where again, they guarantee us, those fully intact 800,000 bodies lay for months.

That's basically the end of the conversation, so i will laugh at whatever slop is to follow.

The task of evidencing the mass graves, has been done. You just pretend it has not been done, to deflect from your lack of evidence to prove what did actually happen inside TII.

Nessie. Look at the title of the thread. "What Actually Did happen at Treblinka"

Without grave space capacity for 800,000 people, then 800,000 people were not put into the ground
Without the remnants of 800,000 people, the remnants of 800,000 people were also not put into the ground

This could not be any simpler, even for you, and this means the claims are unsupported, therefore they could not have happened.

[pilgrimofdark]

These are a few things that happened:

At Treblinka train station, Jankiel Wiernik observed a trainload of 5,000-12,000 living, half-dressed Jews heading north from the T-II area back towards Malkinia.

Wiernik and Abram Goldfarb observed chlorinated lime being used, but assumed it was for homicidal purposes. So those two were never close enough to the "chlorine chamber" buildings, but were passing around "hearsay atrocity rumors" they heard elsewhere. According to the Official Holocaust Rules™, they can no longer count as "direct" witnesses.

Broni Teperman confirmed to the Soviet investigation that she used the chlorinated lime himself to whiten her clothing. She just went up to the barrels next to the building with the French Citroen motor and took some.

The below district railway map shows Treblinka and Sobibor near the jurisdictional limit of the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn. Treblinka and Belzec are near internal district borders.

Spoiler

Polish state archives Reference code: 29/663/0/7/1288
Link

(there are a ton more maps like this one)

In terms of Ostbahn/Wehrmacht transfer of service, Robotnik Polski w Wielkiej Brytanji had this to say about "Treblinka" in October 1944:

[in the context of transporting Jews from Czechoslovakia]

Because the train, which had just sped along the track towards Małkinia, when it reached the outskirts of Treblinka, would change its service: Polish railway workers would be replaced by the army, and the wagons would be emptied of people arriving from a distant world. They will journey to buildings called bathhouses, from which they will never return. Here their journey will end.

- "The Big City of Treblinka." Robotnik Polski w Wielkiej Brytanji. October 1, 1944. ("WIELKIE MIASTO TREBLINKA")
Link

The "outskirts of Treblinka" does not refer to the T-II camp, since it had been closed long before the date of this newspaper report. It may refer to the Treblinka train station/settlement area.

This 1944 Deutsche Heereskarte map points to a separate "<--Treblinka" area on the outskirts of the Treblinka town. It is quite a bit north of the T-II area and T-I quarry/camp.

The 1945 Polish investigative report Obóz zagłady Treblinka concluded "During the investigation, no mass graves were found during field work, which, in connection with the testimonies of witnesses, leads to the assumption that almost all the bodies of the victims were burned." Two of the thirteen witnesses (full disclosure: some people define 15% as "all") apparently contradicted this and indicated there were mass graves on a map made by a Polish surveyor who could not accurately identify cardinal compass directions and revised his original map a year later to remove references to burial places but still misidentified the compass orientation of the camp (or did he?). Five of the witnesses were also interrogated by the Red Army in 1944, where they repeated more atrocity rumors and participated in a Year in Treblinka book club.

Anyway, all of this would need to be substantiated more.

[edit: Broni/Bronia/Bronya Teperman (Броня Теперман) was a woman and I corrected her pronouns. I apologize for my mistake.]

[Callafangers]

The below district railway map shows Treblinka and Sobibor near the jurisdictional limit of the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn. Treblinka and Belzec are near internal district borders.

Great finds, pilgrimofdark. Regarding Belzec, it is interesting that this camp isn't actually within the Gedob borders... It got me thinking, so I put together a table just summarizing what the "three sister" camps had in common, location-wise:

RCL.jpg (113.36 KiB) Viewed 111 times

On each of the criteria above:

• At Soviet demarcation line: Was this location along the 1939–1941 German–Soviet demarcation line?
• At Arbeitsbereich border: Was this location approximately at the 'Arbeitsbereich' (Work Area; mainly Lublin district) border?
• Probable rail gauge changes: Given this location, were rail gauge changes (including passenger/cargo unloading and reloading) possibly needed here?
• Typhus control border: Was typhus especially bad further East of this location (necessitating control measures at the border)?
• Security concerns: Were security conditions (partisans/sabotage) an issue further east, possibly suggesting some special measures or Wehrmacht designation beyond this point?
• Property management: Did property sorting/management per Aktion Reinhardt occur here?
• At Gedob border: Is this location formally along the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn (Gedob) border?
• Occupied pre-1941: Was this location occupied by Germany before June 1941?

Regarding typhus control, see: viewtopic.php?p=18842#p18842

Any of the above factors could explain why a major camp might be situated there, and we see that not only are these camps located as such, but the verifiable evidence (e.g. diggings, Reinhardt documentation) all firmly align with these suggested uses.

[Nessie]

It really is as simple as this. It should be the easiest task in the world to show us the remains of 800,000 people that they guarantee us are there. Along with the previous, since emptied, and far larger, grave space capacity for 800,000 people where again, they guarantee us, those fully intact 800,000 bodies lay for months.

That's basically the end of the conversation, so i will laugh at whatever slop is to follow.

The task of evidencing the mass graves, has been done. You just pretend it has not been done, to deflect from your lack of evidence to prove what did actually happen inside TII.

Nessie. Look at the title of the thread. "What Actually Did happen at Treblinka"

Without grave space capacity for 800,000 people, then 800,000 people were not put into the ground
Without the remnants of 800,000 people, the remnants of 800,000 people were also not put into the ground

This could not be any simpler, even for you, and this means the claims are unsupported, therefore they could not have happened.

There is the evidence to prove mass graves and a large area of cremated remains buried at TII. That you dispute that evidence, is different from there being no evidence.

You lie about the lack of evidence of mass burials and cremations, to deflect attention from your inability to evidence what did happen inside the camp.