Why does SanityCheck evade the Physical Evidence Question?

[SanityCheck]

Nick, if it wouldn't be a bother, could you post a list of confirmed nazi mass graves so I can consider scale and scope? Perhaps on your blog?

Big strides towards this are on Yad Vashem Untold Stories (for the 1941 borders of the USSR) and in USHMM Encyclopedia vol II (thus also postwar Poland) plus more in vol IV for POW camps, since those also had Nazi mass graves. Untold Stories identifies not just a town/community but strives to identify all the killing sites around it, so they have counted 2700 specific sites for just over 1200 towns, and there are still towns being added.

If we are not going to quibble over 'The Big Ones', I can deal with that. I'd still like to know where the Rhinehart jews ended up, but, that can be my cross to bear I suppose if you are 'tired of talking about it over and over for 20 years'.

Personally, I read much of your last post as simple bluster. I suppose that's because I'm a 'nazi loving hitlerite fascist holocaust denier'. Still, I can't help but feel the last post was light on source and high on verbosity.

You can read things however you want; it was just a forum post making some summarising points. I still alluded to a lot of studies and sources, and mentioned several.

[Stubble]

Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence Sir. If it is out there, please do, show me. I read the other materials that you have recommended in the past. They have been a slog, but, I have read them. To this point, what has been provided has left me, unconvinced.

I can understand that from your point of view this may seem exasperating, especially given how long you've been at this. Regardless, I would think correcting a misunderstanding on my end would be in your interest.

To be very clear, I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I want to see some actual evidence. What I find are things like the forensic investigation at Auschwitz unavailable. I'd like very much to see the bore studies and the photographs of the floors of the LK's at Krema III from when they removed the rubble. I want to see if there are any anchors in the floor on LK 1 of Krema III. Any mark, anything.

If there are lots of Huge Mass Graves containing on the neighborhood of 2,000,000 souls, and they have been geophysically located, I'd like to know man.

[Nessie]

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Nessie raised the question of 'expertise' in this thread; it's a misplaced point, since essentially none of the revisionists have qualifications of relevance, or prior experience with the issues being debated. Germar Rudolf is the only real exception, and his interpretations were contradicted by other trained chemists.

....

I have raised the point about revisionist lack of relevant training and expertise, on a regular basis, in numerous threads. For example, in this thread, "The revisionist treatment of the witness evidence, is particularly badly flawed, as it fails to take into account all the scientific knowledge and understanding of witness behaviour, hearsay, memory, recall and estimations."
Revisionists are overconfident in their abilities, believing, in a way I find arrogant, that if they cannot work out how the gas chambers constructed in the Birkenau Kremas could have functioned, from the evidence available, therefore there were no gas chambers. When a witness estimates the size of the gas chambers, how many people were gassed each time and how long it took, multiple studies prove that the estimations will be a range of figures, with some wildly wrong. Those studies, which fall into the scientific field of psychology, are ignored and instead, the revisionists declare it is evidence the gassings were impossible, therefore they cannot have happened.

I also raised the point about Rudolf being the exception. "The closest to a technical debate, is the one between chemists over the presence of PB and HCN levels". I have been heavily criticised for first refusing to debate the chemistry of the gas chambers, then relenting and participating with the caveat that no one really knows what they are talking about and how the debate was flawed. When I raised the valid point that the gas chambers may have started to show signs of Prussian Blue staining, but we will never know, since they were demolished, it was ridiculed. To me, that is a sign of the confidence the revisionists have in their understanding and knowledge, a confidence that is not back by relevant qualifications and training. Any appeal that they show some humility and accept that their lack of expertise means they are even more likely to make mistakes than the experts, falls on deaf ears.

The revisionists here are so invested in and impressed by their physical arguments that mass gassings, cremations and graves cannot have happened, that no amount of evidence or argument will shift them. The reason I persevere is to show visitors to the forum, that the posters here are wrong and why that is.

[HansHill]

Rudolf's arguments, and Leuchter's before him, about Prussian Blue do not convince in the slightest, not just because neither demonstrated why Prussian Blue would necessarily form or persist in the ruins and buildings they examined 40-45 years after the events. Mainly because the reported homicidal gassings lasted a much shorter time than prolonged use of Zyklon B in delousing chambers, which explains the visible-to-the-naked-eye difference between blue-stained buildings and those without.

I really wasn't expecting this. If anything, I was expecting an argument based on pH values. At least the pH was measured by the Poles, giving you hard evidence to point to. Rather than speculation. But we'll persist anyway.

Arguing exposure time is a roundabout way to argue the kinetics were unfavourable to PB formation, for obvious reasons. It is in effect saying the HcN particles had insufficient time to interface with the building materials. Given that much has been done to model the porosity, permeability and diffusion properties of these materials as well as the kinetic mobility of HcN which can be readily comparable to that of water vapour, kindly point me to the Orthodox argument you find most compelling that 100's of cumulative hours of HcN exposure is insufficient for Prussian Blue formation.

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[SanityCheck]

Rudolf's arguments, and Leuchter's before him, about Prussian Blue do not convince in the slightest, not just because neither demonstrated why Prussian Blue would necessarily form or persist in the ruins and buildings they examined 40-45 years after the events. Mainly because the reported homicidal gassings lasted a much shorter time than prolonged use of Zyklon B in delousing chambers, which explains the visible-to-the-naked-eye difference between blue-stained buildings and those without.

I really wasn't expecting this. If anything, I was expecting an argument based on pH values. At least the pH was measured by the Poles, giving you hard evidence to point to. Rather than speculation. But we'll persist anyway.

Arguing exposure time is a roundabout way to argue the kinetics were unfavourable to PB formation, for obvious reasons. It is in effect saying the HcN particles had insufficient time to interface with the building materials. Given that much has been done to model the porosity, permeability and diffusion properties of these materials as well as the kinetic mobility of HcN which can be readily comparable to that of water vapour, kindly point me to the Orthodox argument you find most compelling that 100's of cumulative hours of HcN exposure is insufficient for Prussian Blue formation.

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Exposure time plus ventilation for Kremas II and III, along with CO2 being exhaled, urine and faeces being excreted washing down the chambers, plus several whitewashes, then exposure to the elements through cracks and holes over 40+ years; all of the latter points applying to the otherwise basically levelled Kremas IV and V and Bunkers. Krema I never saw 'hundreds of cumulative hours' of HCN exposure.

The historical data is sufficient to model probable cases for exposure time, since we have a good idea of the incoming transports and can add in registered inmate selections, while also knowing reasonably well about shutdowns and reactivations. I've not seen this done by anyone, least of all Germar Rudolf, who should really present such data (applying best/middle/worst case scenarios) and then show that PB necessarily forms past a certain point, while allowing for the kinetics, changes to PH balance and direct effects on the outgassed HCN from ventilation or lack thereof, CO2 exhalation, excreta, washing, repainting, the effects of postwar exposure, etc.

A delousing chamber would not have had those extra factors while also being operated for longer; this speaks directly to the outgassing debate with Rich Green, where Rudolf came across to me as overegging his case rather than best/middle/worst casing things. The described sequence revolves around circa half an hour of outgassing Zyklon B pellets before ventilation was switched on or doors were opened to naturally ventilate, followed logically by dousing the pellets to neutralise them, so total outgassing time was a matter of a few hours per cycle, versus much longer for a delousing chamber.



The PB argument isn't compelling also for the usual reasons: the KZs including Auschwitz were a largely closed system for Jews, with only rare cases of deportees or inmates being transferred out of it en masse (e.g. the Cosel selections for the Organisation Schmelt camps in 1942, which were all absorbed into the KZ system in 1943-44), and a rather demonstrable expansion of the system in 1944, when Auschwitz was at its peak for receiving transports and was sending deportees selected for work across the Reich.

The registered inmates who vanish statistically from Auschwitz camp strengths and records, otherwise identified and sourced as killed in internal camp selections in 1942-44, add a further conundrum for revisionism, since these were generally sick and exhausted prisoners, and don't show up elsewhere in the system, despite transfers between KZs of sick prisoners of non-Jewish origin being practiced at various moments. Those were bookended in between actual exits from the system, transfers of sick KZ inmates to T4 centres in 1941-2 and again in 1944, which are well-documented, plus the 'return transports' of Jews who had been sent to camps in the Reich then were returned to Auschwitz when deemed weakened or sick, up to October 1944. After this, sick prisoners were frequently sent to sub-camps, sectors of main camps or to Bergen-Belsen, to die off 'naturally'.

These are the historical problems that need solving if one doesn't want to accept the conventional understanding. No technical arguments of any kind can even vaguely point in the right direction of how they might be solved; advancing them is therefore something of a dead end, when one would need to find historical solutions anyway.

[Stubble]

Kremas II & III were occupied buildings Nick. You can't 'just open the doors' and let natural ventilation happen. They were occupied buildings.

You can't properly vent LK-1 in half an hour either.

You are also still left with were the pellets shot around the room falling down a ramp? Dumped at the bottom of the columns? Or dropped into a retractable wire basket? Your eyewitness all disagree on this point. One would think if someone had the job of sweeping the pellets up or not they could remember if that had occurred or not, but no, you have a whole bunch of people saying mutually exclusive things.

Furthermore, none of this with the short exposure time applies to Krema I, located next to the Kommandant's house, the canteen and the camp hospital.

This could go much further, for example, we could look at, and perhaps include in your exposure time, the execution time. To reach an execution time of on the order of 5 minutes, you are talking about a crap ton of product. Then what do you do with the still gassings pellets?

There are already so many threads for this, I simply didn't want to let those ludicrous musings stand unopposed.

I will say that your last paragraph seems to me to be on point, mostly. I'd argue that if you want to build a mountain by hand, you have to start with one grain of sand, and that for it to be understood that there exists a problem one first must expose that problem, which has been done. At this point, a parallel history needs to be constructed. One which can be honed by critique and eventually form the backbone of a history that rests in congruence with reality as it occurred. So much of what is pawned off as historical truth with regard to the events commonly referred to as the holocaust is demonstrably false, and to show children pictures of mass graves full of the victims of allied bombings (basically), attrition from overpopulation and from epidemics as proof of a German campaign of extermination is dishonest to such a degree that it to this day leaves me shaken that I was fed such bare faced lies.

Ultimately, in our disagreement, at its core, I can't show you the living, and you can't show me the dead. In my defense, human remains are significantly easier to find after 80 years than a footprint..

[HansHill]

Exposure time plus ventilation for Kremas II and III, along with CO2 being exhaled, urine and faeces being excreted washing down the chambers, plus several whitewashes, then exposure to the elements through cracks and holes over 40+ years; all of the latter points applying to the otherwise basically levelled Kremas IV and V and Bunkers. Krema I never saw 'hundreds of cumulative hours' of HCN exposure.

This feels underwhelming. There is an embedded contradiction in this paragraph I'll address in a moment. But the real issue is the embedded assumption that exposure time somehow ceases when the last Jew dies, or the pellets are extracted, or the ventilation begins (you can choose whichever is more preferable, it doesn't matter, because neither is the case). The HcN Material interface continues long after whichever moment you have chosen.

I have demonstrated the permeability + porosity + diffusion properties of the materials in question. These three propertied = absorption rate. The reason why your argument is underwhelming, is you have forgotten the key feature of the HcN molecules immediately after a gassing, what I call the Matrix effect:



No amount of ventilation will prevent this interface. You are betting the farm on this interface being a surface level phenomenon but I've already shown this is not the case.

You've slipped in the hosing down argument, which humourously will only increase ad&absorption for any future gassing.

The embedded contradiction I mentioned earlier is that you've slipped in "exposure to the elements" as a post-reaction phenomenon that will explain its erosion. But Dr Terry, you are arguing it never formed in the first place. How can it erode if it never formed? Schroedingers Residues!

[/quote]

[SanityCheck]

The embedded contradiction I mentioned earlier is that you've slipped in "exposure to the elements" as a post-reaction phenomenon that will explain its erosion. But Dr Terry, you are arguing it never formed in the first place. How can it erode if it never formed? Schroedings Residues!

The issue isn't just whether PB forms, but also explaining the levels of cyanide concentrations in the 1980s-1990s samples. There are glaring discrepancies between the samples from delousing chambers in Leuchter's and Rudolf's samples, and the levels for the crematoria: about two orders of magnitude for what look like 'proper' samples. The different uses and environmental conditions of delousing chambers vs homicidal gas chambers likely explains nearly all of this, and it also explains why PB didn't form in the 1940s, but exposure to the elements over 40 years likely explains some of why non-iron cyanide concentrations have lowered over that time.