Comments on other threads.

[Keen]

Why are you so accepting of the evidence of mass shootings of entire Jewish communities, as partisans in Eastern Europe, but not of the evidence of the mass gassings of Jews from elsewhere in Europe?

If the physical evidence for an alleged crime that - HAS TO EXIST - for the crime to have

actually happened - DOES NOT EXIST - then the alleged crime obviously - DID NOT HAPPEN.

Ergo: The orthodox “pure extermination center” story is - A PROVEN, NONSENSICAL BIG-LIE.

[Callafangers]

Callafangers;

viewtopic.php?p=26180#p26180

just how often were non-Jewish partisans counted within the 'Jews' bucket?

For example, if a German unit captures 500 partisans led by 20 or so Jews, would they not be heavily-incentivized (and/or assuming enough) to claim the entire group as 'Jews'?

How often did this happen?

I say it happened a lot, which would explain why some of the execution numbers provided by the Einsatzgruppen were over inflated. Himmler had written a note in 1941, that stated "Jewish Question | To Be Exterminated as Partisans". In 1942 he sent a report to Hitler that stated 363,211 Jews had been executed over a 4 month period. The report also listed bandits and helpers, but we cannot be sure how many of them were Jewish, or how many of those reported as Jews, were Jews. What we also know, from various reports, is that the aim was to rid the whole of Eastern Europe of Jews and make it "Juden-frei".

Is Nessie a revisionist now? The admission is that Jews were heavily conflated with non-Jews and so the 363,211 figure (already only a fraction of Jews evidently present there; see the Meldung 51 thread) is even less of an indication of a total extermination policy than once previously thought?

[Nessie]

Callafangers;

viewtopic.php?p=26180#p26180

just how often were non-Jewish partisans counted within the 'Jews' bucket?

For example, if a German unit captures 500 partisans led by 20 or so Jews, would they not be heavily-incentivized (and/or assuming enough) to claim the entire group as 'Jews'?

How often did this happen?

I say it happened a lot, which would explain why some of the execution numbers provided by the Einsatzgruppen were over inflated. Himmler had written a note in 1941, that stated "Jewish Question | To Be Exterminated as Partisans". In 1942 he sent a report to Hitler that stated 363,211 Jews had been executed over a 4 month period. The report also listed bandits and helpers, but we cannot be sure how many of them were Jewish, or how many of those reported as Jews, were Jews. What we also know, from various reports, is that the aim was to rid the whole of Eastern Europe of Jews and make it "Juden-frei".

Is Nessie a revisionist now? The admission is that Jews were heavily conflated with non-Jews and so the 363,211 figure (already only a fraction of Jews evidently present there; see the Meldung 51 thread) is even less of an indication of a total extermination policy than once previously thought?

No, since, if you read a standard history of the EG, you see it widely accepted that they over inflated figures. I see you dodged my point about making Eastern Europe Jew free, when revisionists, with no evidence, suggest the Nazis were filling it with millions of Jews.

[Keen]

revisionists, with no evidence, suggest the Nazis were filling it [eastern Europe] with millions of Jews.

LIAR.

If the physical evidence for an alleged crime that - HAS TO EXIST - for the crime to have

actually happened - DOES NOT EXIST - then the alleged crime obviously - DID NOT HAPPEN.

Ergo: The orthodox “pure extermination center” story is - A PROVEN, NONSENSICAL BIG-LIE.

[Callafangers]

No, since, if you read a standard history of the EG, you see it widely accepted that they over inflated figures. I see you dodged my point about making Eastern Europe Jew free, when revisionists, with no evidence, suggest the Nazis were filling it with millions of Jews.

No dodging -- the Germans were transitionally sifting millions of Jews through this territory, as needed for labor, and with varying priorities at different periods of the war. Eliminating the partisan threat often took priority, as did labor needs, as did isolating Jews far and away from non-Jewish civilian populations; up to and including 'pushing' these populations into Soviet territory and unintentionally into forests throughout Europe, further inflating partisan groups and corresponding death tolls.

"Eastern Europe" is a big place, Nessie. It isn't difficult to lose millions of anything there, whether Easter eggs or Jews. The official German record confirms Jews were sent there, and they certainly are not where you claimed they were buried (i.e. at AR camps).

[TlsMS93]

This question will always come up. Who is Jewish? Was a Jew what the Nazis thought they were? They say they didn't persecute because of religion, which is plausible, so what did they persecute based on? Nose size, surname? The USSR had its own methods of classifying Jews, which were different from Germany's.

[Nessie]

No, since, if you read a standard history of the EG, you see it widely accepted that they over inflated figures. I see you dodged my point about making Eastern Europe Jew free, when revisionists, with no evidence, suggest the Nazis were filling it with millions of Jews.

No dodging -- the Germans were transitionally sifting millions of Jews through this territory, as needed for labor, and with varying priorities at different periods of the war. Eliminating the partisan threat often took priority, as did labor needs, as did isolating Jews far and away from non-Jewish civilian populations; up to and including 'pushing' these populations into Soviet territory and unintentionally into forests throughout Europe, further inflating partisan groups and corresponding death tolls.

"Eastern Europe" is a big place, Nessie. It isn't difficult to lose millions of anything there, whether Easter eggs or Jews. The official German record confirms Jews were sent there, and they certainly are not where you claimed they were buried (i.e. at AR camps).

It is not easy to lose millions of Jews in Eastern Europe, especially when Nazi policy was to arrest or shoot, as they were an enemy. Nazi records do not confirm millions were sent there, instead those records show millions arrived at specific camps and then all record of their existence ends. There is evidence of mass burials. You are just disconnecting yourself from the evidence, to pursue a desired belief.

[Callafangers]

It is not easy to lose millions of Jews in Eastern Europe, especially when Nazi policy was to arrest or shoot, as they were an enemy. Nazi records do not confirm millions were sent there, instead those records show millions arrived at specific camps and then all record of their existence ends. There is evidence of mass burials. You are just disconnecting yourself from the evidence, to pursue a desired belief.

AR camps are no longer a serious matter for debate. After Dr. Terry's most recent [final?] spanking on the matter (which included frantic claims of Jews being buried all along the railroad tracks to explain-away the lack of corpses a la Belzec-Sobibor-Treblinka-Chelmno), you will have to await his return to see whether your AR camp narrative could still hold water (or Jews).

As for the Meldung 51 region, the lack of records is confirmed as due to the lack of administrative offices (e.g. for Org. Todt) capable of any serious demographic trail. Reports in general are sporadic and often missing or incomplete (or vague), so it is strange you treat them as something else.

In any case, it's refreshing to see you acknowledge the 363,211 figure must bee way too high. I agree. And with this, Meldung 51 simply isn't evidence of a 'Holocaust' beyond significant anti-partisan measures.

[Nessie]

It is not easy to lose millions of Jews in Eastern Europe, especially when Nazi policy was to arrest or shoot, as they were an enemy. Nazi records do not confirm millions were sent there, instead those records show millions arrived at specific camps and then all record of their existence ends. There is evidence of mass burials. You are just disconnecting yourself from the evidence, to pursue a desired belief.

AR camps are no longer a serious matter for debate. After Dr. Terry's most recent [final?] spanking on the matter (which included frantic claims of Jews being buried all along the railroad tracks to explain-away the lack of corpses a la Belzec-Sobibor-Treblinka-Chelmno), you will have to await his return to see whether your AR camp narrative could still hold water (or Jews).

As for the Meldung 51 region, the lack of records is confirmed as due to the lack of administrative offices (e.g. for Org. Todt) capable of any serious demographic trail. Reports in general are sporadic and often missing or incomplete (or vague), so it is strange you treat them as something else.

In any case, it's refreshing to see you acknowledge the 363,211 figure must bee way too high. I agree. And with this, Meldung 51 simply isn't evidence of a 'Holocaust' beyond significant anti-partisan measures.

Your beliefs explain why you have fallen for the Holocaust denier hoax. You genuinely believe the evidence of mass murder is somehow false and lacking and that there really is the evidence to support millions of Jews were still alive at the end of the war.

There is evidence that anti-partisan actions in the east produced some exaggerated figures, but figures from national records, Nazi documents such as the Wannsee Minutes and Korherr Report and all we see are huge drops, rather than relocations. Parts of Eastern Europe were already being declared Jew-free in 1941. The policy was to clear the region of Jews. If there was also a policy to refill that region with other Jews, then who was running the operation, what department did they work for, what was the name of the operation and where are their reports?

[Keen]

You genuinely believe the evidence of mass murder is somehow false and lacking

The so-called "evidence" for mass murder / burial at B, C, P, S & T II is most certainly false:

If the physical evidence for an alleged crime that - HAS TO EXIST - for the crime to have

actually happened - DOES NOT EXIST - then the alleged crime obviously - DID NOT HAPPEN.

Ergo: The orthodox “pure extermination center” story is - A PROVEN, NONSENSICAL BIG-LIE.

See more here:

https://thisisaboutscience.com/

You genuinely believe the evidence... to support millions of Jews were still alive at the end of the war.

Millions of jews were still alive at the end of the war stupid.

[Keen]

There is evidence of mass burials. You are just disconnecting yourself from the evidence, to pursue a desired belief.

The so-called "evidence" of mass murder / burial at B, C, P, S & T II has no evidentiary value.

NONE.

If the physical evidence for an alleged crime that - HAS TO EXIST - for the crime to have

actually happened - DOES NOT EXIST - then the alleged crime obviously - DID NOT HAPPEN.

Ergo: The orthodox “pure extermination center” story is - A PROVEN, NONSENSICAL BIG-LIE.

As you yourself have said:

nessie:

I cannot physically show you mass graves.

Geophysics scientifically and conclusively proves that there are pits and that they exist.

But it does not prove that those pits contain human remains.

[Callafangers]

Your beliefs explain why you have fallen for the Holocaust denier hoax.

Uh-oh, Nessie has put on his psychoanalysis hat again.

You genuinely believe the evidence of mass murder is somehow false

It really is not complicated -- I see more confirmed-liar witnesses for this event than for any other historical event I have ever looked into, and it isn't even close. These aren't people I merely believe to be liars; these are provable contradictions, impossibilities, and obvious exaggerations/embellishments which any thinking person would agree.

That, alone, would make it a phenomenon if the evidence were indeed there. But it isn't (hence my earlier point about AR diggings).

and that there really is the evidence to support millions of Jews were still alive at the end of the war.

This isn't difficult to understand or explain, either. Powerful groups that just won the world had it well-within their interests to portray 'missing' Jews and to distort and undercount the demographics. There's a ton more support for this, but this fact alone compels a serious consideration of such perspective; yet, it's a perspective deemed politically incorrect (since the victors and their Jews have defined this 'correctness', e.g. in Hollywood).

There is evidence that anti-partisan actions in the east produced some exaggerated figures, but figures from national records, Nazi documents such as the Wannsee Minutes and Korherr Report and all we see are huge drops,

Other than the part about exaggerated figures (a dangerous admission for you), this just isn't true. Wannsee/Korherr "drops" are explicitly non-genocidal.

The policy was to clear the region of Jews.

Sure, in open areas. Jews were prevented from any contact with civilian populations, so could not be roaming or integrated in any way. "Jew free" (Judenfrei) was associated to many areas that still kept Jews ghettoized therein. "Judenrein" (Jew-purged/cleansed?) is arguably the only word you can claim meant Jews were gone completely, but this word was most often associated to individual cities or places where Jews are confirmed to have simply been moved-out (not killed), e.g.:

German-annexed Alsace – reported judenrein by Robert Heinrich Wagner in July 1940.[5]
[...]
The city of Kiev was declared judenrein on September 29, 1941. [7]
[...]
Bessarabia was declared judenrein in January 1942 by Romanian officials, [13] although Nazi officials deemed Bessarabia judenrein in June 1942. [14][15]
[...]
The Polish city of Zgierz, near Lodz, was made judenrein in February 1942. [21]
[...]
In July 1942, Frankfurt was declared judenrein. [28]
Vienna – reported judenfrei by Alois Brunner on October 9, 1942.
The Nazis deemed Sosnowiec, Poland to be judenrein in December 1942. [29]
In February 1943, the Czechoslovak Government-in-Exile reported that the last few remaining Jews had been deported by the Nazis from the Czech towns of Melnik and Mladá Boleslav rendering them judenrein. [30]
In March 1943, the Polish city of Kowel was rendered judenrein. [31]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenfrei

[Nessie]

Your beliefs explain why you have fallen for the Holocaust denier hoax.

Uh-oh, Nessie has put on his psychoanalysis hat again.

You genuinely believe the evidence of mass murder is somehow false

It really is not complicated -- I see more confirmed-liar witnesses for this event than for any other historical event I have ever looked into, and it isn't even close. These aren't people I merely believe to be liars; these are provable contradictions, impossibilities, and obvious exaggerations/embellishments which any thinking person would agree.

Anyone with any knowledge and training in witnesses and evidence would disagree. The witnesses are corroborated and their contradictions etc explainable by know phenomena and issues with memory, recall and estimation. The issue here is that you just do not want to believe them.

That, alone, would make it a phenomenon if the evidence were indeed there. But it isn't (hence my earlier point about AR diggings).

The evidence is there, despite the best attempts of the Nazis to destroy it, including a lot of disturbed ground containing cremated remains at the AR camps.

and that there really is the evidence to support millions of Jews were still alive at the end of the war.

This isn't difficult to understand or explain, either. Powerful groups that just won the world had it well-within their interests to portray 'missing' Jews and to distort and undercount the demographics. There's a ton more support for this, but this fact alone compels a serious consideration of such perspective; yet, it's a perspective deemed politically incorrect (since the victors and their Jews have defined this 'correctness', e.g. in Hollywood).

There is not a ton of evidence to support your hypothesis that powerful groups faked the murder of millions of people.

There is evidence that anti-partisan actions in the east produced some exaggerated figures, but figures from national records, Nazi documents such as the Wannsee Minutes and Korherr Report and all we see are huge drops,

Other than the part about exaggerated figures (a dangerous admission for you), this just isn't true. Wannsee/Korherr "drops" are explicitly non-genocidal.

Historians widely accept that the EG exaggerated the numbers they killed. Wannsee and Korherr are not explicit about a resettlement action.

The policy was to clear the region of Jews.

Sure, in open areas. Jews were prevented from any contact with civilian populations, so could not be roaming or integrated in any way. "Jew free" (Judenfrei) was associated to many areas that still kept Jews ghettoized therein. "Judenrein" (Jew-purged/cleansed?) is arguably the only word you can claim meant Jews were gone completely, but this word was most often associated to individual cities or places where Jews are confirmed to have simply been moved-out (not killed), e.g.:

German-annexed Alsace – reported judenrein by Robert Heinrich Wagner in July 1940.[5]
[...]
The city of Kiev was declared judenrein on September 29, 1941. [7]
[...]
Bessarabia was declared judenrein in January 1942 by Romanian officials, [13] although Nazi officials deemed Bessarabia judenrein in June 1942. [14][15]
[...]
The Polish city of Zgierz, near Lodz, was made judenrein in February 1942. [21]
[...]
In July 1942, Frankfurt was declared judenrein. [28]
Vienna – reported judenfrei by Alois Brunner on October 9, 1942.
The Nazis deemed Sosnowiec, Poland to be judenrein in December 1942. [29]
In February 1943, the Czechoslovak Government-in-Exile reported that the last few remaining Jews had been deported by the Nazis from the Czech towns of Melnik and Mladá Boleslav rendering them judenrein. [30]
In March 1943, the Polish city of Kowel was rendered judenrein. [31]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenfrei

Making Europe Jew free was the stated policy of the Nazis. If there was a resettlement programme, who ran it, what was its operational name, and where is the evidence of millions of Jews the Nazis and their allies had arrested, still alive in 1945?

[Callafangers]

No.

[Nessie]

Callafangers;

Armies shot combatants, I get that. None of it addresses the frequency of conflation between partisans and Jews.

Himmler explicitly wrote that Jews should be exterminated as partisans.

https://holocausthistory.site/1941-12-1 ... partisans/

You accept that and that the Nazis were dealing with large numbers of Jews and partisans in a ferocious war on the Eastern Front. You have just quoted examples of areas being made Jew free, the majority in Eastern Europe. Wannsee recorded Estonia as Jew free. The huge population drops also recorded at Wannsee and then by Korherr are consistent with Jew free and the mass shooting of Jews as partisans. The role of the EG, Jews to be executed as partisans and 363,211 Jews being recorded as executed as partisans, along with non-Jewish partisans, is consistent with making Eastern Europe Jew and partisan free, and not using it to resettle Jews from all over Europe.

Have you any evidence that the Nazis only regarded Eastern Jews as part of the partisan threat, but Jews from elsewhere in Europe would be welcome to move East and resettle there? Is it that sort of cope you are using to prop up your beliefs in a resettlement programme you claim there is a ton of evidence for, but then you discuss evidence about mass shootings and a Jew free policy that contradict you?