How many documents were fabricated?

[bombsaway]

Nonetheless, even regarding the documents shared in my last post, I consider that an interpretation of forgery may be unnecessary, e.g. I suggest:

4) Rauff was a casual and simply spoke out of ignorance; also, there were some CO experiments for delousing purposes around this time.
5) Turner refers to a "delousing van" explicitly and mentions he had to obtain it on his own (with local SD help; not provisioned automatically) -- this in any case (even if for homicide, which isn't apparent since a literal delousing interpretation remains valid) reflects his own individual pursuit, not any larger German policy.
9) Numerous problems with this document, from medical, engineering, and security logic to inconsistent and abnormal phrasing and a lack of corroboration (e.g. radio messages). Possible forgery, and not even clearly referring to Jews (mentions "detainees" / Häftlinge).
10) The Just memo; absurd logistics and timeline if interpreted as homicidal, especially when compared with Becker letter and timeline (Becker's alleged travels are completely incoherent).

I feel you have to go through these slowly.

Well lookihg at #4 I'd say off the bat Rauff is also implicated in #9 - the letter is to him , and makes clear they're about homicidal vans.

"The application of the gas is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. "

I think it's wild you refer to this as a "possibly forgery" (within your viewpoint that were no state sponsored gassings). I mean I suppose it is possible that the writer of this letter was having schizophrenic break from reality and just imagined that they were using gas vans, or was playing a prank, but I don't think hypotheses like that can be taken seriously. Any other ones?

[Archie]

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html

On 9 November 1942, the leader of 10th company of SS-Polizeiregiment 15, Helmut Saur, reported that the men were employed for "guarding at the assembly point, securing the individual transports to the execution site, which was about 4 km outside Pinsk". He goes on that "10,000 people were executed. On 30 October, the ghetto was searched through for second time, on 31 October for the third time and on 1 November for the fourth time. A total of about 15,000 Jews were brought to the assembly point. Sick Jews and some children left in the houses were immediately executed in the ghetto in the courtyard. In the ghetto, about 1,200 Jews were executed." (VEJ 8, document 219).

It is absolutely trivial to find documents that revisionists will find suspicious here. I could go on for hours, days. It seems like willful self-ignorance at this point.

It seems you are very focused on shootings which will skew things greatly. On Einsatzgruppen, I would not believe those numbers even if you had a million documents. If you are really serious about this line of argument I would recommend separating "documents" among several distinct categories. I already explained this in my first reply but I will repeat myself since you didn't address anything.

Here are some suggested categories
1) Stationary gas chambers (maybe a subgroup for euthanasia)
2) Gas vans
3) Ausrottung/vernichtung sort of documents
4) Einsatzgruppen

Many (not all) purportedly incriminating documents can be resolved interpretationally. For instance, I don't need to argue that the document below was forged to deal with it. They just pulled it out of context. This is one of very few Nuremberg "gassing" documents.



Do you claim to have dozens of compelling gas van documents? If so why do people always cite the same two over and over? You claimed only "5 or 6" in the OP. Taking that as given for sake of argument, that doesn't to me like an impossible degree of forgery.

If it can be shown that the number of truly unexplainable documents (perhaps there would need to categories for this as well, i.e., for something purely numerical vs more substantial difficulties) is much higher than I am assuming then I would acknowledge that revisionists would need to develop a more comprehensive explanations for potential large scale forgery.

One more point on Einsatzgruppen, you seem to take "incriminating" to mean any killing of Jews but I don't think that's the relevant standard in the Holocaust debate since shooting deaths are (generally) admitted to an extent, with most revisionists arguing primarily that the numbers are wildly inflated. It seems like you are presenting a bit of a false dichotomy of "no shootings" and the six million.

[bombsaway]

I'd say what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocidal and their larger policy is genocidal. There is an aim at reducing or damaging the population beyond any reasonable military objective.

Of course this is a spectrum and we could say all war has a genocidal aspect. Israeli acts are beyond a certain threshold of brutality where I would say yes it is, but in truth the Nazis make the Israelis look like the doviest of doves.

Precise numbers don't matter much, because the documents speak of a systematic campaign of going to into cities and villages where ghettoized Jews are, saying we're going to resettle you, and then killing virtually everyone. This didn't happen once but across hundreds of localities. This alone elevates the Holocaust above any other act in recent history on the genocide scale, (aside from other things the Nazis did)

If you're agreed that the SS police shootings would constitute the most extreme genocidal act in recent history, then I will happily move on. I just think you deny this too, because at your heart you are a cartoon conspiracist

[Wahrheitssucher]

xxxx

[borjastick]

…Precise numbers don't matter much…

Well then you won't mind me telling you that 6m dead jews in the holocaust is a lie then.

But of course all holocaust promoters love the 6m figure and defend the 'truth' of it until the cows come home and when they get challenged on the lunacy of 6m they run away and wet the bed for a good twelve hours and pretend to be soooo offended.

Precise numbers and their perceived benefits are very important to the holocaust promoters especially as the craziness of israel grows and grows and all they can hide behind is of course you guessed it ladies and gentlemen, the holocaust. Or to be recise their holocaust.

The reality of jewish deaths in the holohoax is that about 250k died. Not pretty, not nice and generally speaking not acceptable but 6m it most certainly was not. I've been at this game a long long time and am still looking for proof of gas chambers, mass murder and 6m deaded jews...

[Wahrheitssucher]

…Precise numbers don't matter much…

Yes the “numbers” definitely DO “matter”, and that is because civilian, non-combatants were targeted in WW2 way more than in any previous conflict in known history.
During WW1 the civilian casualties represented about 16% of the death total.
In WW2 it was about 63%!
So even if we exclude the holyH inflated figures, it is still much more civilians who were deliberately targeted during WW2, many by the Allies with their carpet-bombings of civilian cities, the atom-bombing of Japan, their democidal starvation blockade of Europe, etc.
You should maybe seriously take this info on as your user-name makes light of this wicked and immoral allied mass-murder by aerial bombing.
SUMMARY: the ‘numbers’ do matter because it was not just jewish people who were targeted and killed. So the racist jewish narrative claiming a ‘special-suffering’ is refuted if / (when) their mythological ‘six million’ number is refuted.
That you claim the “precise numbers don't matter much” demonstrates you are approaching the holyH topic with a quite bizarre, emotional and evidence-ignoring, ahistorical approach.

…the documents speak of a systematic campaign of going to into cities and villages where ghettoized Jews are, saying we're going to resettle you, and then killing virtually everyone.

There is no documentary nor archeological evidence supporting that claim. You are just repeating a refuted belief.
There are two possible reasons why you are doing that:
i.) because your approach to this pseudo-historical narrative is as a cultish, die-hard, true-believer, so no supporting argument for it is too absurd for you to faithfully believe and defend;
ii.) you are a hasbara troll who is only here to misinform and sway any undecided CODOH visitors.

This (“systematic campaign of …killing everyone” [every joo]) didn't happen once but across hundreds of localities.

There is no evidence of that. You are just repeating your cultish belief just like all other cult-victims do.

This alone elevates the Holocaust [holyH] above any other act in recent history on the genocide scale, (aside from other things the Nazis did)…

As above!
Now just using the vague and deliberately imprecise, emotional, trigger-word: ‘holyH’ !!
I.e. “All must kneel and bow their heads. HolyH! Never forget! Poor, poor jooze! Never forget the jooish holyH.”

If you're agreed that the SS police shootings would constitute the most extreme genocidal act in recent history, then I will happily move on.

As predicted on Skeptics and RODOH, the refuted holyco$t by gas is now being replaced by cultish believers with a holyco$t by bullets.

…I just think you deny this too, because at your heart you are a cartoon conspiracist.

Ending with ad hominem: the final refuge of a scoundrel with no actual, logical argument.

[Archie]

I'd say what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocidal and their larger policy is genocidal. There is an aim at reducing or damaging the population beyond any reasonable military objective.

Of course this is a spectrum and we could say all war has a genocidal aspect. Israeli acts are beyond a certain threshold of brutality where I would say yes it is, but in truth the Nazis make the Israelis look like the doviest of doves.

Precise numbers don't matter much, because the documents speak of a systematic campaign of going to into cities and villages where ghettoized Jews are, saying we're going to resettle you, and then killing virtually everyone. This didn't happen once but across hundreds of localities. This alone elevates the Holocaust above any other act in recent history on the genocide scale, (aside from other things the Nazis did)

If you're agreed that the SS police shootings would constitute the most extreme genocidal act in recent history, then I will happily move on. I just think you deny this too, because at your heart you are a cartoon conspiracist

Seems like you don't want to show the "thousands" of unambiguous gassing documents you implicitly claim exist.

Since it seems you are refusing my suggestion of breaking this into categories, I will go ahead an try to do it for you.

Gas Vans: 5 or 6 (your own estimate from the OP)

Stationary Gas Chambers: The F-G report. Maybe a couple others? If we count the "criminal traces" documents that would be about 40, but those are usually addressed interpretationally.

Final Solution/Extermination: The vast majority of these I think can be handled interpretationally. A few like Posen speech "sound bad" but imo they are usually not specific enough to require an assumption of forgery (from a revisionist perspective). Something like PS-501 on gas vans is specific and explicit enough that if we are arguing for no gas vans then I think, yes, we pretty much have to to argue that PS-501 is a forgery. But for something that's more vaguely exterminationy sounding there's a lot of interpretational wiggle room. Those interpretations might seem strained when looking at one document in isolation and when coming at it with Holocaust priors. But if revisionists are right about everything else, then revisionist interpretations become more plausible across the board.

Einsatzgruppen: If this part of the narrative is partially conceded, then I would say not too many. If one insists on a hardline revisionist position, then it would be a potentially very large number, probably in the hundreds.

I included a fair number of the most commonly cited documents in my Best Case for the Holocaust essay. I make no claim that it is absolutely comprehensive of course but like I said if there’s anything really major it would probably get attention.
viewtopic.php?p=21373#p21373

[Archie]

…I just think you deny this too, because at your heart you are a cartoon conspiracist.

Ending with ad hominem: the final refuge of a scoundrel with no actual, logical argument.

I was disappointed in that as well since I was trying to meet bombs half way in the post prior to that. He isn't actually interested in developing the argument in this thread. Which is exactly why he quickly abandoned this thread to begin with. And he brought up the same talking points again only because the Katyn thread was going poorly for him.

Bombs uses the psychological insults and manipulations as a deflection tactic when he's not doing well or doesn't like where things are going. It's one of his tells.

[bombsaway]

Seems like you don't want to show the "thousands" of unambiguous gassing documents you implicitly claim exist.

Where did I implicitly claim such a thing?

Einsatzgruppen: If this part of the narrative is partially conceded, then I would say not too many. If one insists on a hardline revisionist position, then it would be a potentially very large number, probably in the hundreds.

You haven't been clear on whether this is conceded, what you personally concede here, if anything, etc.

I can ask a specific question which might illuminate things. We're skipping over Babi Yar since you seem to think it was an exception and the record was substantially fabricated there.

So what do you think happened to the Jews in Generalbezirk Wolhynien in mid to late 1942?

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html

Do you agree with me that the majority of the Jews there were removed from ghettos and shot under the guise of resettlement? Maybe you're not a cartoon conspiracist, I might be wrong.

[Archie]

Where did I implicitly claim such a thing?

Patrick says "thousands."


Perhaps I'm misreading you, but it sure seemed to me like you were making essentially the same argument as Patrick. Please clarify if you have a different view. I thought the whole point of this thread was to argue that the number of forgeries would have to be an impossibly high number.

You haven't been clear on whether this is conceded, what you personally concede here, if anything, etc.

I can ask a specific question which might illuminate things. We're skipping over Babi Yar since you seem to think it was an exception and the record was substantially fabricated there.

So what do you think happened to the Jews in Generalbezirk Wolhynien in mid to late 1942?

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html

Do you agree with me that the majority of the Jews there were removed from ghettos and shot under the guise of resettlement? Maybe you're not a cartoon conspiracist, I might be wrong.

For purposes of this discussion, why can't we just agree that there are a large number of shooting documents and move on to gas chambers?

[bombsaway]

For purposes of this discussion, why can't we just agree that there are a large number of shooting documents and move on to gas chambers?

Because it seems like you think Babi Yar was an exception, in terms of what is being described and the kinds of documents the event generated. I'm saying it isn't. It's at a larger scale sure, but not even substantially. Other documents talk about shootings where 20,000 from such and such were killed.

If you agree that there wasn't widespread fabrication of shooting documents, I think you have to concede orthodoxy's version of events about the police killings. You can break down the killing narrative here into subsections, which is why I offer this case

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html

So what happened in Generalbezirk Wolhynien? Is orthodoxy correct?

[Archie]

For purposes of this discussion, why can't we just agree that there are a large number of shooting documents and move on to gas chambers?

Because it seems like you think Babi Yar was an exception, in terms of what is being described and the kinds of documents the event generated. I'm saying it isn't. It's at a larger scale sure, but not even substantially. Other documents talk about shootings where 20,000 from such and such were killed.

If you agree that there wasn't widespread fabrication of shooting documents, I think you have to concede orthodoxy's version of events about the police killings. You can break down the killing narrative here into subsections, which is why I offer this case

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... to_16.html

So what happened in Generalbezirk Wolhynien? Is orthodoxy correct?

You didn't read my Babi Yar comments carefully.

Probably a good one to focus on would #7. That's the most famous and has been the most discussed. It says "on 29 and 30 September 1941, 33,771 Jews were executed in Kiev," which is quite explicit. However--and this is what really separates my approach from yours--I would not accept that as proof even if the document were known with certainty to be authentic and unaltered. Because documents can be wrong, especially with numbers.

From my perspective, you are looking at this rather backwards. The claim is that 33,771 Jews were executed over two days and were buried in a ravine. Can this be established with paper evidence? In my opinion, no, because documents can be wrong. And other evidence does point to this being wrong. If a document is wrong, does that mean it had to be forged? In some cases it might (like the Katyn examples), but not necessarily. Especially if for most revisionists the disagreement is essentially numerical.

You also seem to be misunderstanding my usage of "incriminating." You seem to understand it as "proves the Holocaust," in keeping with your binary thinking that I noted earlier. A document saying e.g. that 187 Jews were shot could be called "incriminating" but it's not very material to the points that are most disputed (and which you are now trying to avoid discussing).

Your HC link is about Meldung 51 which I already mentioned and which we have dedicated threads for.

Since you are deflecting so egregiously, I will take that as an implicit acknowledgement that the number of unexplainable gassing documents is very low.

[bombsaway]

All points should be discussed. I've discussed gassing at length. I asked about Generalbezirk Wolhynien and there was no real response other than a Nazgul tangent viewtopic.php?p=22312#p22312

No revisionist has offered an explanation about what happened there. If they were saying fine, it seems like Orthodoxy is correct here, I would drop it. But you can't have it both ways, as you do in this thread.

Yeah you are practicing non-binary thinking if you hold the belief that orthodoxy is correct and incorrect simultaneously.

Yes the documents directly evidencing gassing are low - below 15 probably. It's easy for me to answer simple questions. I have nothing to hide, the revisionist case is non threatening on every level.

[bombsaway]

If you agree with what Orthodoxy asserts happened at Generalbezirk Wolhynien, I agree this is off topic. Since you seem to disagree - though it's apparently very hard for you to say this openly - I suggest we start going through the documents and we'll figure out how much of them would have to be fabricated if any. There's no better thread for that than this.

[bombsaway]

Especially if for most revisionists the disagreement is essentially numerical.

I call a bluff on this. Do you think the after capturing Kiev the Nazis instructed the Jewish population of the city to assemble for resettlement (of which most did), then killed them?

"It is ordered that the Jews are to be "resettled". This is done in such a way that the Jews are ordered to gather in the following night with their best clothes and jewlry at collection places. No difference is made between classes, sex and age. They are then brought to a previously selected site outside the town. On the pretext that certain formalities are still to be fulfilled, they have to put aside their jewlry and clothes. They are taken off side the street and liquidated. The resulting situations are so shocking that they can not be described. The consequences for the German commandos are inevitable. In general, the execution can only be carried out under numbness with alcohol. A SD officer ordered to watch had to endure a nightmare of the most dreadful kind the following night according to his description."