How many documents were fabricated?

[HansHill]

R: In 2019, the first English edition of Carlo Mattogno’s massive work on the Einsatzgruppen appeared, showing in minute detail how unreliable and contradictory the reports of the Einsatzgruppen are (Chapters 4&5 of Vol. 1 in Mattogno 2022c).

L: And he’s rather apologetic about the murders that did occur, I might say.

R:Well, he argues that here was no Nazi policy to murder Jews as Jews, but that they were executed as the main “fertile breeding ground of Bolshevism” (Mattogno 2022c, p. 757; see his entire Chapter 2 of Vol. 1).

L: I can’t see a moral or legal difference whether Jews get indiscriminately slaughtered because they are Jews or because I declare them to be the mainstay of Bolshevism. At the end, they were murdered, and that’s what counts.

R:That’s quite right. Moreover, the claim that “the Jews” were the base and backbone of Soviet power is a mere unproven assertion. Mattogno quotes many reports of the Einsatzgruppen making such assertions (Subchapter 3.6. of Vol. 1), and he gives the impression that he takes them at face value. Even if the local populace confirmed to the men of the Einsatzgruppen that Jews were the linchpin of Soviet power, how can anyone be sure that this was indeed true? Maybe the Germans were only hearing from the local populace what that populace thought the Germans wanted to hear? After all, anyone disagreeing with the German scapegoating of the Jews would have been unlikely to walk up to them and set the record straight, would they?

L: There is also quite a difference between some Jews being important to Soviet power and then blaming all Jews for what some of them did.

R: Indeed. In this regard, Mattogno’s book leaves behind a bad taste. It sounds like apologetic sophistry


> Thinks he can post half the quote
> Thinks he can remove the context unfavourable to him
> Thinks nobody will notice
> Thinks he will get away with it

R:.....The second part of Mattogno’s book on the “Aktion 1005” is
much more rewarding in this regard, as he demonstrates with many examples the
ridiculous nature of eyewitness claims on the alleged cremation of the murdered
victims on huge pyres (Vol. 2 of 2022c). These accounts resemble the technically
impossible nonsense commonly found in witness testimonies about the alleged
outdoor cremations in the various extermination camps.

L: So it’s all bunk?

R: No, I don’t think so. But it is probably safe to say that these accounts are all in-
fused with inventions and exaggerations of war-time propaganda, but still, the core
of it could be true. The question is merely: how big is that core?
The last word about this topic has not yet been spoken, not among revisionists
either, in spite of Mattogno’s massive tome. Ultimately, only thorough and inde-
pendent forensic investigations of any and all mass graves located could settle the
matter, although the more times passes, the more difficult it will be to come to any
conclusions with certainty. But this is unlikely to ever happen.

That boy ain't right!

[HansHill]

For the curious reader, this is all from HH vol 15, section 3.13

[bombsaway]

> Thinks he can post half the quote
> Thinks he can remove the context unfavourable to him
> Thinks nobody will notice
> Thinks he will get away with it

The "unfavourable" context is not related to the topic - which is the genocide , not whether kill counts were inflated or the 1005 stories are bunk. These topics are separate, therefore it isn't crucial context, unless you're saying the 1005 stories disprove the genocide.

So I'll ask you directly: Was the "the general resettlement of the Jews"* in the Generalbezierk Wolhynien a mass killing operation?

[HansHill]

topic - which is the genocide , not whether kill counts were inflated or the 1005 stories are bunk

The topic, is in fact, fabrication of documents. The part you tried to omit but I caught you, specifically relates to the falsity of accounts (via invention and exaggeration) and calls for more forensic investigation to be done. His conclusion;

bodies in the ground > words on a page

But nice try, i guess

[bombsaway]

topic - which is the genocide , not whether kill counts were inflated or the 1005 stories are bunk

The topic, is in fact, fabrication of documents. The part you tried to omit but I caught you, specifically relates to the falsity of accounts (via invention and exaggeration) and calls for more forensic investigation to be done. His conclusion;

bodies in the ground > words on a page

But nice try, i guess

Yeah I'm saying for the particular case of Generalbezierk Wolhynien, either there was genocide or documents had to be fabricated en masse.

I'm making a pretty simple point. but you (and Archie) have deftly avoided this topic by not answering or engaging with the question of whether genocide occurred there in the first place. You are masters of evasion and I have to admit you have successfully presented a reality where you are not dodging anything at all, on whatever grounds (my question doesn't matter, is dumb, etc) . Nowhere in your posts do you even seem to acknowledge the existence of this question. I give your performances a 10/10

Even Germar seems to acknowledge the reality of the genocide " I can’t see a moral or legal difference whether Jews get indiscriminately slaughtered because they are Jews or because I declare them to be the mainstay of Bolshevism. At the end, they were murdered, and that’s what counts."


And your quote I think he does it again, though maybe he's just talking about body destruction - is it all Bunk? "I don’t think so."

[Archie]

Even Germar seems to acknowledge the reality of the genocide

Do you not understand things on purpose?

[bombsaway]

Even Germar seems to acknowledge the reality of the genocide

Do you not understand things on purpose?

yes I understand how Hans Hill was making an argument unrelated to the discussion about whether there was a genocide (systematic killing of most of the population) in Generalbezierk Wolhynien . I think you guys are question deniers,

*to the audience - are they going to even acknowledge the question? tune in next time!

(asked last week btw viewtopic.php?p=26481#p26481)

[Archie]

There were so many fake, fabricated, forged German and Polish documents being produced -- just for false IDs -- that the USHMM has in its permanent collection a "Large wooden crate used by Żegota to hide false documents" (23.250 inches x 40.625 inches x 20.375 inches).

That fits with all the survivor testimonies that mention "Aryan papers" and other false documents.

The Germans actually employed Jews on the "forgery detail" at the Schlier camp in Austria (AKA the Redl-Zipf camp).

https://muse.jhu.edu/document/1932

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bernhard

There's a reference to this in the Franz Ziereis statements (which if nothing else reflect the prisoner gossip at the time).

At the Schlier camp all the workers (about a thousand) were Jewish graphic or lithographic experts. They were employed on printing forged foreign currency, passports, permits, etc. of all countries.

[pilgrimofdark]

The Germans actually employed Jews on the "forgery detail" at the Schlier camp in Austria (AKA the Redl-Zipf camp).

The USHMM and Wikipedia allege the Germans were engaged in a mass conspiracy to forge bank notes with the intent to hoax the British retail economy

The Germans were engaged in a mass conspiracy to forge Soviet identification documents with the intent to hoax the Soviet Red Army

The staples in Soviet soldier IDs were made of iron and rusted spots would appear on the pages of the IDs around the staples. Although the printing work and paper in the forged German-made IDs were almost identical to those in the real IDs, staples in the forged IDs were made of stainless steel and the IDs did not have the rusted spots, and this feature was immediately recognized by SMERSH officers.

- Vadim Birstein, SMERSH: Stalin's Secret Weapon, p. 242.

The Soviet Union was engaged in clandestine activities to produce fake documents to help their judicial authorities prosecute the bloodthirsty Hitlerite bandits

Abakumov was ordered to prepare Bulgarian witnesses, while Merkulov’s duties included preparing Soviet medical experts, medical documents (which were forged), and a German witness. Vyshinsky was placed in charge of a documentary film about the [Katyn] massacre, and USSR Chief Prosecutor Safonov was responsible for preparing Polish witnesses. Since this was a plan involving massive falsification, it is possible that Zorya opposed it.

- Vadim Birstein, SMERSH: Stalin's Secret Weapon, p. 393.

[PangaeaProxima]

A German circular warning of Jewish forgers in Ukraine, which sell fake ID and other documents. In particular it is warned of Jews that use fake IDs produced by these forgers to present themselves as Ukrainians or Poles to get employment at German official departments. In one case Jews even were acting in German Luftwaffe uniforms with faked marching orders.

Ukraine_1943_Forgers.jpg (263.72 KiB) Viewed 884 times

[pilgrimofdark]

The market for "false" identification documents in occupied Poland created additional opportunities in the mass conspiracy to hoax.

An Aryan Certificate might also be included in the "set" of fabricated documents created by the conspirators in order to hoax the Germans. (Or created by clandestine activists in order to resist Nazi aggression.)

Sometimes, a new "Certificate of Baptism" went together with a special "Confirmation of Aryanness." This peculiar document (notaries in Warsaw charged 50 zlotys to draw it up) was drafted in the presence of the person whose Aryan origins were being confirmed, as well as at least two witnesses. The witnesses attested to the fact that the individual in question "right after his birth was admitted to the Christian community and thus the witnesses state that they are not aware of any circumstances which would indicate that this person would, at any point, belong to the Jewish religion."

- Jan Grabowski, Rescue for Money: Paid Helpers in Poland, 1933-1945, p. 23.

Grabowski's quote references a 1940 "repertorium of notary A. Malinowski." He doesn't indicate how widespread the forgery of "Confirmation of Aryanness" documents were.

So this is an ongoing list of documents that were forged in the mass conspiracy to hoax:

• identity card (Kennkarte)
• work certificate (Arbeitskarte)
• residence certificate
• baptism certificate
• marriage certificate - not always applicable
• Aryan certificate - not always applicable

If the "Confirmation of Aryanness" documents had to be certified by a notary, it's possible this was done outside of the two underground printing presses mentioned in relation to Zegota.

Janina Bukolska, a well-known Zegota activist, worked in a translation/notary public office. The office was used as a meeting place for other conspirators and forged documents were stored there. Maybe in the same "large crate" the USHMM has, or another?

I don't know either way if she was creating Aryan certificates or charging for them.

[pilgrimofdark]

There were also rumors in Warsaw that Jews in the ghetto were engaged in a mass conspiracy to fabricate fake gold in order to hoax the German occupation economy.

Franciszek Wyszynski, himself trading in gold and currencies, noted on January 12, 1942: "People claim that the Jews in the ghetto produce gold dollars and rubles. The coins allegedly have the right weight and proof, and one simply cannot distinguish them from the original pieces. The trick is that a gram of melted gold is valued at 70 zlotys, while the same gram in a coin is worth 42 zlotys more!"

- Jan Grabowski, Rescue for Money: Paid Helpers in Poland, 1933-1945, p. 30.

I haven't run into any material that would substantiate this allegation of a mass conspiracy to forge gold coins.

"Secret Jew gold" could be its own discussion topic.

I suppose Jews could exploit the belief by Germans, Poles, and whoever else, that they actually had secret gold, maybe to try to prolong their lives or something. It doesn't seem like it would work unless they really had some valuables hidden away.

But there's also an instance of a Jew using the "I have secret gold" trick for seemingly no logical reason, other than hoaxing Germans.

AI Translate of a bit more from the recently-discussed VEJ 8/219:

The ghetto was swept a second time on October 30, a third time on October 31, and a fourth time on November 1. A total of approximately 15,000 Jews were brought to the assembly point. Sick Jews and individual children left behind in the houses were executed immediately within the ghetto, in the courtyards. Approximately 1,200 Jews were executed inside the ghetto. There were no incidents, with the exception of one case. Because Jews who had buried gold and reported it were promised their lives, a Jew came forward claiming to have hidden a large amount of gold. A police sergeant accompanied him. However, since the Jew kept hesitating and repeatedly asked the sergeant to go up to the attic with him, the sergeant took the Jew back to a gathering place in the ghetto. There, the Jew refused to sit on the ground like all the other Jews. Suddenly, the Jew lunged at a member of the cavalry squadron, snatched his rifle and a stick from him, and began striking the cavalryman with the stick. Only through the intervention of members of the company was this attack thwarted.

As the firearms could not be used, he was struck on the head with a hatchet during the ensuing struggle, causing him to collapse to the ground and remain there; he was executed on the spot.

The VEJ references a GARF 7021 archival record, which means this is from the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission collection (if I'm not mistaken).

I wonder why this particular Jew thought it was a good idea to hoax the German police that he had secret gold, then grabbed their weapons and attacked them.