The Jews Went to Work? Organization Todt

[Callafangers]

So Europe is thus "European" states that are primarily Aryan in terms of ethnic makeup?

I don't need to explain this further. It is sufficient to show that Korherr does not appear to include the GG as part of Europe, which is now done and sealed.

[bombsaway]

So Europe is thus "European" states that are primarily Aryan in terms of ethnic makeup?

I don't need to explain this further. It is sufficient to show that Korherr does not appear to include the GG as part of Europe, which is now done and sealed.

If Europe isn't the GG or the Soviet territories, from where does he subtract 4 million Jews? There weren't enough Jews in this smaller area, not even remotely close. You seem to be colossally confused in argumentation, though I expect some sort of convoluted retcon on this point. I'm glued to my seat waiting for this tbh,

again the quote: "Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

[Callafangers]

So Europe is thus "European" states that are primarily Aryan in terms of ethnic makeup?

I don't need to explain this further. It is sufficient to show that Korherr does not appear to include the GG as part of Europe, which is now done and sealed.

If Europe isn't the GG or the Soviet territories, from where does he subtract 4 million Jews? There weren't enough Jews in this smaller area, not even remotely close. You seem to be colossally confused in argumentation, though I expect some sort of convoluted retcon on this point. I'm glued to my seat waiting for this tbh,

again the quote: "Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

Please continue pretending not to comprehend what I have shared bombsaway, I expected nothing else from you.

Korherr subtracts those who are being "sifted through the camps in the General Government" -- they are not in Europe, they are being sifted through work channels whose destinations entail Eastern territories, per official policy. They have no contact with Europeans, they are not any part of Europe in terms of racial contact or engagement. The GG itself was shown as conceptually distinct from Europe, per the report excerpts already shown which I note that you avoid addressing directly. Here they are again (in green, for your enjoyment):

• Territorial categorization: Korherr consistently distinguishes between "Reich territory" and areas like the General Government and eastern territories. For example, he notes that balance sheet figures "do not include the newly acquired eastern territories" and separately mentions "about 1.3 million Jews in the General Government."
• Administrative distinction: When discussing evacuations, Korherr refers to "Transportation of Jews from the eastern Provinces to the Russian East" where "the following numbers sifted through the camps in the General Government." This framing suggests the General Government serves as a channeling, filtration, or processing zone rather than a mere transit corridor or final European destination.
• Geographical conceptualization: In his concluding section on "Balance Sheet for The Jews in Europe," when discussing the pre-war distribution of European Jewry, Korherr refers to Jews being "concentrated in Europe especially in the former Polish-Russian territories occupied by Germany." The phrasing "former Polish-Russian territories occupied by Germany" suggests these areas might be viewed as administratively separate from his conception of core Europe.

Don't be mad at me, bombsaway, be mad at Korherr, he is the one saying it.

[bombsaway]

I don't need to explain this further. It is sufficient to show that Korherr does not appear to include the GG as part of Europe, which is now done and sealed.

If Europe isn't the GG or the Soviet territories, from where does he subtract 4 million Jews? There weren't enough Jews in this smaller area, not even remotely close. You seem to be colossally confused in argumentation, though I expect some sort of convoluted retcon on this point. I'm glued to my seat waiting for this tbh,

again the quote: "Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

Please continue pretending not to comprehend what I have shared bombsaway, I expected nothing else from you.

Korherr subtracts those who are being "sifted through the camps in the General Government" -- they are not in Europe, they are being sifted through work channels whose destinations entail Eastern territories, per official policy. They have no contact with Europeans, they are not any part of Europe in terms of racial contact or engagement. The GG itself was shown as conceptually distinct from Europe, per the report excerpts already shown which I note that you avoid addressing directly. Here they are again (in green, for your enjoyment):

• Territorial categorization: Korherr consistently distinguishes between "Reich territory" and areas like the General Government and eastern territories. For example, he notes that balance sheet figures "do not include the newly acquired eastern territories" and separately mentions "about 1.3 million Jews in the General Government."
• Administrative distinction: When discussing evacuations, Korherr refers to "Transportation of Jews from the eastern Provinces to the Russian East" where "the following numbers sifted through the camps in the General Government." This framing suggests the General Government serves as a channeling, filtration, or processing zone rather than a mere transit corridor or final European destination.
• Geographical conceptualization: In his concluding section on "Balance Sheet for The Jews in Europe," when discussing the pre-war distribution of European Jewry, Korherr refers to Jews being "concentrated in Europe especially in the former Polish-Russian territories occupied by Germany." The phrasing "former Polish-Russian territories occupied by Germany" suggests these areas might be viewed as administratively separate from his conception of core Europe.

Don't be mad at me, bombsaway, be mad at Korherr, he is the one saying it.

Your AI is selectively judging the paper. Ask it to adjudicate the meaning of this sentence since you're clearly incapable of it.

"Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

This sentence makes clear that he is including the General Government in Europe, since there is no possible way you can reach the 4 million figure without accounting for the 3.3 million Jews that he reports were there in 1937.

[SanityCheck]

Nick, you aren't listening. The records were minimized by a number of factors:

• No OBL units and a general lack of administrative structure further East - few or no documents ever created
• Germany covering their tracks on Jewish dispossession and policy and war's end - even fewer documents
• Soviets and Allies (and their Jews) pillaging and corrupting any remaining records at war's end - those who forge will also shred

This is why it is necessary for you to show official, veritable, contemporary documents or physical/forensic evidence that supports your case, which is 'conveniently' where you repeatedly and inevitably fail.

Nah, sorry, your ignorance of the besetzten Ostgebieten is truly spectacular. Have you ever read *anything* conventional about them?

I went over some very inconvenient sources for your 'theory' at RODOH a while back, specifically showing that by mid-1943, multiple sources indicated 72,000 Jews remained in the RK Ostland, a mixture of Latvian, Lithuanian and Reich Jews. The four Generalkommissariate ranged in population from 1 million to nearly 3 million, so adding further populations would have been a spectacularly obvious burden on the food supply, something especially critical in the most populous district, Weissruthenien, which was also the region most affected by partisan warfare (with both Soviet and Polish partisans by 1943). Army Group Centre's occupation zone was larger at 6 million (4 million in the army group rear area) but facing a constant threat to its control from Soviet partisans. Army Group North's zone was smaller at 1.2 million, very under-urbanised, agriculturally not very fertile, and also faced down something of a partisan threat.

I pointed to the known size of the OT-Einsatzgruppen with multiple dates in 1942-43. The OT employed Dutch and Flemish workers but also many, many Polish workers, alongside Russians, Belarusians and Balts, looking at Nord and Mitte, which operated into the military zone of operations.

This means that there are quite a range of sources in the records of the civil administration (spread across four national archives in addition to NARA/the Bundesarchiv and further materials in Moscow), the military administration and Economics Staff East which discuss the various construction projects and sources of manpower, and requests by the OT to be supplied with labour. I pointed to some examples earlier in this thread, records concerning Latvia, employment of the remaining Jews there, the labour market as a whole, use of POWs, and providing workers for Baugruppe Giesler, one of the component parts of OT-Einsatzgruppe Russland-Nord, which Giesler commanded once the OT-Einsatzgruppen were set up. A close reading of such sources can identify specific construction firms, just as one can find out the names of construction firms operating in the Government-General.

Mostly, though, it's time for you to consider the administrative structure and general pattern of urbanisation and what the Germans would do with these rear-area towns, i.e. who was based where and how they might use up the available housing, barracks, and what they might require. POW camps could provide labour - even for agriculture in Latvia - while different services had need of labour, such as Luftwaffe commands needing workers to improve, maintain or expand air fields.

Weissruthenien had 10 districts and Minsk as a municipality. In 1941-2 there were five Stalags for Soviet POWs in Minsk (352 until November 1943), Slutsk (362), Glebokie (351 until April 1942), Molodechno (342 until March 1943) and Baranovichi (337 until September 1943). Those were all districts and generally not very large towns, Minsk a small city. The former Stalag sites at Slutsk and Baranovichi became transit camps for Soviet civilian evacuees in 1943.

The initial garrison was one short infantry division, the 707th, with six infantry battalions. This was replaced in spring 1942 with the same number of territorial battalions, with Wehrmacht forces being added over 1942, including Reserve units training new recruits.

Weissruthenien rapidly filled up with SS, Police and Schutzmannschaft units to combat the rising threat from partisans, already by mid-1942. As of July 1, 1942 there were already seven battalions of Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian Schuma dispersed through the provincial districts, and 3 battalions of Belarusian Schuma doing guard duty around Minsk. By 1943 multiple battalions of Ukrainian Schuma had been added, along with several German police regiments. Sonderkommando Dirlewanger finally moved there in February 1943, it operated in the military zone until then.

(The military zone was equslly densely garrisoned; security divisions in Army Group Centre ended up fairly quickly with three regiments instead of two. The SS-Police force ran to two regiments in the summer of 1942, out on almost constant operations.)

The 10 districts of Weissruthenien had substantial Jewish populations still at the start of 1942, and they were murdered over the course of the year; 139,000 Jews were reduced to below 30,000, with the latter figure including the survivors of the 7000 Reich Jews deported to Minsk in 1941. Another 17,000 Reich Jews were murdered at Maly Trostenets and one transport at Baranovichi from May to October 1942. Other than selecting a few to work in the Maly Trostenets camp and agricultural estate, these 17,000 Reich Jews showed up nowhere else in either Weissruthenien or Army Group Centre's rear area.

The SS developed a practice of reducing or destroying surviving provincial ghettos during the major antipartisan operations, 'Swamp Fever' (Baranovichi ghetto was hit), 'Hamburg' and 'Nuernberg', 'Hornung' in February 1943 (the Slutsk ghetto was destroyed, 3300 killed, amply and multply documented).

The 10 districts (Gebietskommissariate) controlled 59 Soviet districts or raiony - some were Polish counties in the west or divided from these. The region was very rural, heavily forested and contained some swamps. Already in August 1942, Soviet partisans attacked and captured raion capitals; this was a pattern common also in eastern Belarus under military administration and in the southern Belarusian Polesie region in the north of Generalkommissariat Shitomir in RK Ukraine. They usually could not hold them against determined efforts to recapture them, but the disruption was palpable.

In the sticks, at raion level, there would be even fewer officials, various Gendarmerie posts and local Belarusian Schumas, all taking significant casualties from partisan attacks. The raion capitals or market towns were all basically shtetls, so over 1941-2 the Jews of these towns were murdered or concentrated in the district capital, or skilled workers selected to be so concentrated, until they could be replaced by Belarusians or Poles.

It so happens there is an inspection tour report for OT-Einsatzgruppe Russland-Mitte for 28 July to 4 August 1942, which I would consider to be a decisive refutation of any claims that the Great Deportation from the Warsaw ghetto sent anyone via Treblinka into Weissruthenien or Army Group Centre. The Warsaw-Malkinia-Bialystok-Baranovichi-Minsk main railway would, if the 'transit camp thesis' had any substance to it, have logically pointed in *exactly* this direction.

The report noted the recrutment of 3700 Russians evidently in Army Group Centre's area, before mentioning the Sondereinsatz Werlin repair works in Minsk (which has records from the Mercedes-Benz archive) and problems with managing both Russian peasants and POWs. From mid June to mid July 1942, the OT-Einsatzgruppe Russland-Mitte lost 68 killed and 104 wounded in partisan attacks - the implication being these were Germans. Most would have been in the military part, but from April to July 21 1942, in Weissruthenien 27 OT men were killed and 9 wounded. A 500 man German Schutzkommando was impending but had yet to arrive.

The OT secured agreement to deploy 1-2000 Jews from the Baranovichi ghetto as long as they could be held in barracks (kaserniert), for the Eisenbahneinsatz. No mention of Jews from Warsaw.

A further report for the end of August/start of September 1942 noted that *Italian* workers for the OT in this region had reached the end of their contracts and were returning home; 50 however had extended their contracts. The Arbeitseinsatz section of this report further discusses a promise in July 1942 to supply 5000 POWs and 1000 Ukrainian civilians 'from Army Group South' (they could have moved up via Chernihiv) but the transfer was cancelled. There was a demand of 2-3000 workers for the railway Einsatz and 6-7000 workers for the Durchgangsstrassen. On the other hand, 7000 Russian civilians had been recruited (again presumably mostly in AGC, but Russen could equally be used casually for Belarusians. This report confirms that 2000 Jews had indeed been assigned to the Eisenbahneinsatz, given the previous report from Baranovichi - no hint they had arrived from outside the region. The partisan threat was causing a high rate of flight among 'civilians' (not Jews). From mid-July to mid-August 1942, the OT-Einsatzgruppe lost a further 68 killed and 194 wounded. There was also a discussion of the issues arising from contracting Polish construction firms based in the GG, due to the wage differential. Multiple reports in other records note Polish OT workers in the central sector (Mitte-Weissruthenien).

In this time frame, the era of the Great Deportation from the Warsaw ghetto (July 22-September 21, 1942), two transports of Jewish workers *were* sent from Warsaw to the Mitte-Weissruthenien region. But they were taken from 11,000 able bodied Jews selected for the Dulag and left directly from Warsaw; this contingent also saw transports deported directly to Majdanek (as workers) in September 1942. The bimonthly report of the Warsaw district governor as well as information available to the Judenrat and thus ghetto underground both agree on the destinations of the two transports. They did not come from the 250,000 documented as resettled and from the train schedules and other sources sent to Treblinka to be killed (and a few selected to work in either Treblinka II, like Jankiel Wiernik, or Treblinka I)

One transport was sent to the SS-Nachschubkommandantur Russland-Mitte near Bobruisk, which had already received a labour transport from Warsaw since the SS in Bobruisk had exterminated all the native Belarusian Jews in 1941. The other was slated for Luftgau Moskau headquartered in Minsk.

That transport provoked a freak-out from Gauleiter Kube, the Generalkommissar Weissruthenien, who threatened to have it destroyed. What happened to the transport is unknown. Kube further freaked out in mid-August at a false report of another incoming transport of Jews reaching Baranovichi - to repeat, the paper trail withdrew the accusation and said this was a false report. Kube and the mayor of Minsk, Janetzke, had complained extensively about being lumbered with a mere 7,000 Reich Jews in 1941. Kube did not object to the 17 transports from the Reich being killed at Maly Trostenets and Baranovichi or small numbers being selected to work on the SS estate at Trostenets, because he didn't have to worry about them, they would not need to be housed, fed or looked after.

In April 1943, the district commissars, Minsk officials and SS held a conference to discuss achievements and new goals, with many of the district commissars as well as the SS (von Gottberg the SSPF and Strauch the KdS) noting the extermination of the Jews of their districts or the killings of Jews and the now much lower number left alive. After the civil administration fled Weissruthenien in June-July 1944, each district commissar filed an experience report with several more noting the problems from the loss of Jewish labour.

I'd like you to outline a scenario for how the 250,000 Jews of Warsaw deported to Treblinka could possibly have ended up along the Mitte-Weissruthenien axis, over and above those two known transports from the 'Dulag'.

Army Group Centre was busily trying to offload Russian civilians evacuated from the Rzhev salient onto Weissruthenien, which it managed to do to the tune of many thousands before one brought typhus along and the transports were suspended. Some of the evacuees from near Rzhev were resettled into housing in Lida freed up by the reduction of the ghetto there in May 1942.

Offloading large numbers of Jews into the zone of operations is not feasible, not without triggering protests and refusals. The SS depot at Bobruisk could bring in explicit workers in small numbers without being especially noticed, but there weren't further SS staffs in the Army Group Centre area capable of absorbing and controlling five or six figures of deported Jews. In 1941, plans to send just a few transports beyond Minsk into the military zone met with the response that they would be turned away with force of arms (Waffengewalt), due to the transport crisis. In 1942, every train was needed to supply the colossal battle in the Rzhev salient, while the rail lines were being harried endlessly by the partisans. Since the SS were committed to antipartisan operations in AGC at this time, there wasn't an infrastructure to handle five or six figures of deported Jews. The OT was not involved in this sector in large-scale use of Jewish forced labour. The statistics for OT-Einsatzgruppe Russland-Mitte in spring 1942, August 1942 and into 1943 don't allow for this.

Moreover, there are multiple reports from Einsatzgruppe B from late August through the whole of September 1942, with some preserved in multiple copies captured by the Americans as well as the Soviets, which do not mention the arrival of any Jews from Poland, or indeed from Maly Trostenets if you remember you have to account for the whereabouts of 16,000 deportees from the Reich killed there and 1000 killed at Baranovichi.

Offloading large numbers of Jews in Weissruthenien was just as problematic. The SS-Police were also committed to antipartisan operations in this region. The Minsk ghetto was being reduced in this time-frame and its size counted in reports of the civil administration, the employment of workers in Minsk noted in other reports. Dispersing 250,000 Jews deported from Warsaw, even allowing for a 20% casualty rate en route, would mean 20,000 Jews being settled in each district. For this to go unremarked in all of the many sources surviving from GK Weissruthenien, whether from the National Archives of the Republic of Belarus or the NARA-Bundesarchiv records, including in several OT reports from this exact time-frame, is not credible. For this also not to be noted by any diarists, letter-writers, partisan units, the Polish underground and Armia Krajowa (who were for sure operating in western Belarus) is even less credible.

But, I'm willing to hear out a scenario dividing up the 250,000 Jews of Warsaw deported to Treblinka by regions and districts in Mitte-Weissruthenien.

This would not be the only cohort to explain away - the more than 300,000 Jews of the Radom district deported to Treblinka, the deportations from provincial ghettos in the Warsaw district and the deportations from parts of the Lublin district to Treblinka all would logically flow from Malkinia-Bialystok-Baranovichi-Minsk. The Bialystok district deportations southwestwards to Treblinka might have better been sent from the transit/collection camps without boomeranging westwards to Treblinka, but the same route would apply. However, maybe you have an idea of how the Radom district Jews were deflected into the Polesie and Pripyat marshes, or how actually it was the Radom district Jews who needed to be sent to Weissruthenien while the Jews of Warsaw really ended up in the Pripyat marshes.

The scenario needs to outline where these contingents were sent - were they sent to the Gebiet capitals or dispersed into the provincial raiony, who guarded them and was there any intention of feeding them? (Because there's also no hint in the agricultural administration records of adding hundreds of thousands of people to the ration lists in either Mitte or Weissruthenien).

'Muh OT' ain't gonna cut it now.

[SanityCheck]

There is, of course, the further problem of explaining what happened to the 139,000 Jews of Weissruthenien at the start of 1942, whose presence before their murder is amply documented (eg a report noting 18,000 native Jews in the Minsk ghetto at the start of the year), the 17,000 deportees from the Reich, and around 30,000 Jews documented in Army Group Centre's area at the start of the year. The native Jews were all controlled and many explicitly ghettoised, security could have been tightened rather than deciding to kill them if some escaped to the partisans. The saturation of partisan activity either side of the Warsaw-Minsk-Smolensk highway spread progressively westwards through 1942, so the Jew = partisan equation already argued for in 1941 was just reiterated. But ghettoised shtetl Jews were not actual partisans just potential recruits.

So, either the documented, definitely-there Jews were killed, in which case why on earth would the Germans move even more Jews into the area, or they have to be added to the number who need proper tight confinement in designated areas. Either the native Jews were killed to the tune of 130+ thousand or they were resettled and concentrated somewhere, which might cause even more space problems for accommodating and controlling incoming Polish Jews, in the revisionist 'theory'.

The same problem ensues for RK Ukraine and its northern regions which were Belarusian - the Brest, Pinsk, Polesie, Pripyat marshes axis - as well as why the Germans annihilated nearly all the Jews in Volhynia and Podolia, all told 326,000 alive in early 1942 and their presence well documented, but reported as killed by the end of the year in multiple documents. Or were they, too, resettled and if so where?

[Callafangers]

Oh joy, another information-dense wall of text, once again confirming you are incapable of providing a focused argument sufficient for your position on any subcategory of the 'Holocaust'. Only through a thesis-length bombardment can you ever get enough 'convergence' in your favor, eh?

Let's take just one, then:

I went over some very inconvenient sources for your 'theory' at RODOH a while back, specifically showing that by mid-1943, multiple sources indicated 72,000 Jews remained in the RK Ostland, a mixture of Latvian, Lithuanian and Reich Jews.

Yes, fortunately, I was able to dig up this 'inconvenient source(s)' you reference, it's here: https://rodoh.info/post/16436

You said:

Despite all the gaps, these records rule out essentially all 'resettlement' fantasies. In July 1943, a meeting at the Eastern Ministry about labour issues was told there were 72,000 Jews left in the Reichskommissariat Ostland (Memo of 20 August 1943 on a conference of 13 July 1943, NO-1831, Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals, Volume 13, p. 1021).

Let's see what this cited source actually says:

Gauleiter Dr. Meyer mentioned the resettlement of 22,000 Jews and the concentration of 50,000 Jews in concentration camps in the Eastern Territories and emphasizes that the same must be replaced by the Plenipotentiary General for Labor Allocation.

https://archive.org/download/TrialsOfWa ... e%2013.pdf

I do encourage everyone to actually review the document provided in the PDF link above. Remember as you read it that Dr. Nick Terry tells us that this document is direct evidence that there were just 72,000 Jews left in all of RK Ostland at this time.

But while you are reading, also note that:

• Commissioner General Kube (obviously with security focus) specifies "16,000 Jews are still at work for the Wehrmacht" in White Ruthenia (part of RK Ostland), in places like Minsk and Lida, and requests their replacement [by non-Jews] upon evacuation.
• SS Lt. Gen. Berger notes Jews already "in concentration camps for the purposes of the clothing and armament industry, and for the production of shale oil" -- implying an existing labor pool not included in Meyer's 72,000.
• Chief of War Administration Matthiesen references Himmler's order for "the concentration of Jews in concentration camps which, however, must not result in losses of production," showing this is about consolidating remaining groups to bring them out of 'open' areas', not counting everyone.
• Meyer's numbers appear to be a snapshot of Jews targeted for further consolidation/removal, excluding those already deep in the camp system. If he were including all Jews in labor camps, the emphasis on "replacement" doesn't fit as neatly (since camp laborers were already isolated under SS control and could be moved/reassigned, whereas removal from cities/ghettos/etc creates gaps in local economies).

Altogether, some might argue this is actually just a bureaucratic memo on wartime labor logistics on removing Jews still "out in the open", and not any sort of demographic census. The 72,000 are just one contingent being moved/replaced and the document implies many more Jews were already in camps or addressed separately.

Hmm, so, to recap:

• You claimed this particular document as your foremost evidence of "just 72,000 remaining" Jews in RK Ostland
• It turns out, this document has nothing to do with claiming the total number of remaining Jews there
• Actually, this document strongly supports a process of moving and consolidating various contingents of Jews on the basis of labor needs, in great numbers, as of July 1943.

It is worth noting this document also uses the term "evacuation" quite literally, which one can imagine would be very confusing if the same word sometimes meant "mass slaughter and burial":

Commissioner General Kube was of the opinion that White Ruthenia would be able to furnish the labor contingent as demanded by the Plenipotentiary for Labor Allocation, if entire areas were evacuated and the population transferred to the Reich, family by family. Any breaking-up of families would only cause considerable unrest in the land. Moreover, the evacuation must be carried out along peaceful lines under all circumstances, and the transportation and all other measures must be well planned and the treatment must be decent.

[Callafangers]

Your AI is selectively judging the paper. Ask it to adjudicate the meaning of this sentence since you're clearly incapable of it.

"Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

This sentence makes clear that he is including the General Government in Europe, since there is no possible way you can reach the 4 million figure without accounting for the 3.3 million Jews that he reports were there in 1937.

You're just confused, bombsaway, it is yourself who is cherry-picking the document, as are other exterminationists.

There are several key pieces of textual evidence that show Korherr's language deliberately avoids claiming these 4 million Jews "died" or "left Europe completely":

1. Korherr explicitly lists multiple causes for the decline -- not just death or departure:
He states it occurred "in part through emigration, in part through excess mortality of the Jews in central and western Europe, in part through the evacuations especially in the Eastern territories where the population is stronger, which here are calculated as departure."
The key phrase is "which here are calculated as departure" -- this is an accounting methodology, not a factual claim about physical location.

2. He acknowledges incomplete information:
"One must not overlook that only a part of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied eastern territories are recorded here"
"All in all, migration streams (unknown to us) of the Jews within Russia into the Asiatic region"
"The stream of emigration of Jews from European countries outside of German influence is also a largely unknown quantity"

3. The 1.27+ million "durchgeschleust" (sifted/channeled/filtered) through the GG camps:
These Jews are counted toward his evacuation totals that contribute to the 4 million decline, yet the German word suggests they may still be within the General Government.

4. His careful qualifier:
He says the number "is likely to have declined" - this is statistical estimation language, not definitive factual assertion.

5. Above all, the methodological admission:
When he writes "evacuations...which here are calculated as departure," he's explicitly telling us this is an accounting convention for his statistical purposes, not necessarily reflecting actual geographical departure from Europe.

The text shows that Korherr is making a bureaucratic accounting claim about population statistics, not an empirical claim about 4 million people having physically died or left European territory.

Oof, again.

[Callafangers]

After re-reading it just now, I was reminded I made a similar argument to my last one above to SC/Nick regarding the 72,000 figure when the same topic came up at RODOH last year, to which he responded at-length:

The 72,000 figure for Jews remaining in the RK Ostland as of July 1943 is confirmed from separate sources, as I noted originally. The reading of NO-1831 to say 50,000 to be sent to KZs and 22,000 'resettled' adding up to 72,000 is standard in the literature. Angrick/Klein agree with this in their book on The Final Solution in Riga and also cite Yitzhak Arad's Ghetto in Flames from 1979 (IIRC) which agreed with them, and first did a breakdown. Hans Safrian in Eichmann's Men (1993) and Christoph Dieckmann in Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Litauen (2011) likewise agree.

The 72,000 consisted of
- 13,200 in Latvia, overwhelmingly in the Riga ghetto, but this figure includes the small provincial ghetto workforces that survived to 1943, such as a few hundred (just under 500) at Dvinsk-Daugavpils, confirmed from multiple sources cited in Angrick/Klein
- 40,800 in Lithuana, with just under 4800 in Siauliai, just under 16,000 in Kaunas and just over 20,000 in Vilnius. This had been just over 44,000 at the start of April 1943, before 4000 Jews from Oszmiana and other shtetls annexed to Lithuania from Weissruthenien were murdered in Ponary that month
- 16,000 in Weissruthenien, with most in the Minsk ghetto (9-10,000), the balance in Lida and Glebokie, with only a few hundred left in labour camps in Nowogrodek and Baranovichi.

The various reports cited by the specialists mentioned (Dieckmann, Angrick/Klein, Gerlach etc) refer to Jews in general, not just labouring Jews. At the end of July 1943, 11,776 Jews were recorded in one count as in work in Weissruthenien, which is lower than the 16,000 being discussed in NO-1831 (Wehrwirtschaftskommando Minsk, Sonderbericht über Arbeitseinsatzfragen, 26.8.43, NARA T77/1144/50). This would fit with some not being counted as in productive work if they were in the ghetto councils or working for the SS, or if the count was incomplete. Unfit Jews and children had almost all been murdered already in Weissruthenien and the Minsk ghetto, unlike in Lithuania. Latvia's surviving Jews in 1943 were essentially all able-bodied.

Thus, it is a mistake to add the 16,000 to the 22 + 50K figure. The 72,000 figure did not just apply to workers, and the issues being debated would have made little sense if all concerned overlooked or were ignorant of a separate set of books counting 'resettled' Jews who were working on different projects.

One can allow for small margins not being included in the 72,000 figure, but for Weissruthenien, the figures go - an overall estimate by Kube in November 1942 of 30,000 versus the SS counting 27,000 at the end of October; the SS talking of killing 11,000 Jews between November 1942 and April 1943, which included big ops in late 1942 that side-swiped ghettos ('Nuernberg' and 'Hamburg') but especially the 3,300 killed in the Slutsk ghetto in February 1943 as a side-gig during Operation 'Hornung'; multiple smaller executions earlier in 1943 and in the early summer in Minsk, and various other small ghettos/work camps wiped out. The Security Police commander Strauch spoke of 22,000 alive in April, 1943, but this was probably referring to earlier in the year; the maximum wiggle would be a few thousand above the 72K, The figures for Latvia and Lithuania are comprehensive.

Impressive as always but, as always, lacking original or compelling evidence of any kind. Notice that what we see here is a compilation of references (likely a written list which SC/Nick keeps handy just for debates like these) which are all supposed to entail a degree of "trust me bro" -- that we should accept that the facts are in there and supportive of SC's statistics and figures based on the fact that somebody wrote a book about it.

And yet we have seen that books like this:

Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps by Yitzhak Arad
amazon.com/Belzec-Sobibor-Treblinka-Operation-Reinhard/dp/0253213053

...are easily eviscerated by books like this, once the full picture and more relevant sources are revealed:

The Operation Reinhard Camps by Carlo Mattogno
https://holocausthandbooks.com/wp-conte ... 8-torc.pdf

SC/Nick repeatedly leans on the discrepancy in vastness of literature favoring his position -- enforced by law and power dynamics -- as evidence for his position, which is desperate and hilarious to anyone who can see it for what it is.

For a quick glimpse at what his army of sources entail, taking one of the first from his compilation above:

The 'Final Solution' in Riga: Exploitation and Annihilation, 1941-1944 by Angrick/Klein
amazon.com/gp/product/0857456016/

The description reads:

Drawing upon a broad array of sources that includes previously inaccessible Soviet archives, postwar criminal investigations, and trial records of alleged perpetrators, and the records of the Society of Survivors of the Riga Ghetto, the authors have produced an in-depth study of the Riga ghetto...

In other words, Soviet documents, postwar coercive show trials, and 'survivor' storytelling form the vast bulk of every page within this book. Just imagine if revisionists had thousands of hours and infinite money to tear through it all. Do you suppose we'd find 100% accuracy and valid interpretations therein? 90%? 70%?

The only 'edge' that remains in favor of exterminationists is precisely this lopsided dynamic that postwar 'denazification' propaganda and power abuses have created.

The fact that SC/Nick can't even manage to straightforwardly acknowledge this anti-intellectual condition (rather, he argues in such a way as to intentionally benefit from it) reflects on the frailty of his position.

[Stubble]

Just as a matter of curiosity, as Nick mentioned Task Force Jakob on RODOH, I'm curious to know if he can share anything about Unit 51.

See, there was a bit of an administrative scuffle in Kertsch about Unit 51. I'm genuinely curious about it.

I assume it was a unit of specialized equipment like cranes or steam shovels or something.

The entire situation with the paperwork in regards to most of Organization Todt's projects is, atrocious. This particular seems spotty enough that so far I'm drawing a blank.

I want to reiterate that OT was not the only labor org in the east and I will again reference TN. Thus, there is more on my plate. Then there are private firms, like IG Farben (I think I'm spelling that right) and many others.

I'm going to have to get back to digging. I woke up to take a leak and checked on the thread. I see that the orthodox assertion remains unchanged 'no, no, the missing jews are in the dirt at the Bug River camps'.

Just a reminder, no, the missing persons are not now and never were in the dirt there. Maybe it would behoove you to, you know, look for the missing persons and resolve that, rather glaring issue, and, giant hole in the orthodox thesis. Then again, you can just keep using 'where'd they go' as a cudgel I guess and tell me, some fucking hayseed, that I've got to go and count up all the jews or they were fucking gassed to death, grave space be damned.

Been working pretty good for the orthodoxy to do that for what, the last, 80 odd years? Why change a winning strategy, right?...

Yes, my brain hurts, and I'm bitter...

[bombsaway]

Your AI is selectively judging the paper. Ask it to adjudicate the meaning of this sentence since you're clearly incapable of it.

"Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

This sentence makes clear that he is including the General Government in Europe, since there is no possible way you can reach the 4 million figure without accounting for the 3.3 million Jews that he reports were there in 1937.

You're just confused, bombsaway, it is yourself who is cherry-picking the document, as are other exterminationists.

There are several key pieces of textual evidence that show Korherr's language deliberately avoids claiming these 4 million Jews "died" or "left Europe completely":

1. Korherr explicitly lists multiple causes for the decline -- not just death or departure:
He states it occurred "in part through emigration, in part through excess mortality of the Jews in central and western Europe, in part through the evacuations especially in the Eastern territories where the population is stronger, which here are calculated as departure."
The key phrase is "which here are calculated as departure" -- this is an accounting methodology, not a factual claim about physical location.

2. He acknowledges incomplete information:
"One must not overlook that only a part of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied eastern territories are recorded here"
"All in all, migration streams (unknown to us) of the Jews within Russia into the Asiatic region"
"The stream of emigration of Jews from European countries outside of German influence is also a largely unknown quantity"

3. The 1.27+ million "durchgeschleust" (sifted/channeled/filtered) through the GG camps:
These Jews are counted toward his evacuation totals that contribute to the 4 million decline, yet the German word suggests they may still be within the General Government.

4. His careful qualifier:
He says the number "is likely to have declined" - this is statistical estimation language, not definitive factual assertion.

5. Above all, the methodological admission:
When he writes "evacuations...which here are calculated as departure," he's explicitly telling us this is an accounting convention for his statistical purposes, not necessarily reflecting actual geographical departure from Europe.

The text shows that Korherr is making a bureaucratic accounting claim about population statistics, not an empirical claim about 4 million people having physically died or left European territory.

Oof, again.

I never said the document suggested they were killed. The AI slop items (btw you should link to your AI chats, I always did, to provide transparency about how "manipulated" they were) are not strong indications he thought they were in the GG.

For example, nothing about the term "filtered" suggests they are still there. You have to make an actual argument here, just saying it is so is not enough. All you are doing here is arguing for possibility. The term doesn't preclude them being in the GG as you say, but it also doesn't mean they were.

On the other hand you have no counter interpretation for this "Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million"

Europe is a geographic area, and unless what that was changed betwee 37 and 43, Korherr is saying there were 4 million less Jews there. I should remind you that your position is "GG was not considered to be in Europe". I think your argument is actually much stronger if you do consider it Europe, and that's saying something, since it's still a stinker of an argument.

[Nessie]

Projection isn't a good look, Callafangers, because it's you who've failed to make a case that there were any sievings out of workers en route to the Reinhardt camps

Forgot to mention, on the above, Nazgul has presented in the past Fahrplanordnung documents which clearly show lengthy, unexplained stops at various labor camps en route toward Treblinka and other Reinhardt camps. These stops are not explained by routine maintenance or known deliveries, etc., and only reasonably seem to align with lots of people offboarding/onboarding at each location.

Nazgul also presented a statement from an SS guard from one of the transports, to Belzec, who stated that stops were made to change guards, repair carriages that were being damaged in escape attempts, to wait around the normal daily train services which were given priority and to refuel the trains. He also described an instance when some carriages were split from a transport and taken to a labour camp, but they returned full of other people from that camp.

I also looked at the nearest camp to each stop and found they were small temporary places that closed down and sent the prisoners to either the Warsaw ghetto or to TII.

Then every single witness from a transport and local Poles, all speak to people remaining on the trains and any escape attempts resulting in people being shot.

Plus, every single witness at the AR camps reported trains packed full of people arrived. Plus, Nazi reports record mass arrivals at the camp.

Nazgul's claim is typical of the low standard of investigation, where a lot of evidence is ignored and instead of evidencing what happened, the claim is speculated.

[Nessie]

The ghettos were controversial because it still entailed Jews within major cities and areas, across Europe...

If millions of Jews were not murdered, one would expect millions of Jews to living in ghettos in 1945. But they had all closed down by the end of 1944.

[Nessie]

So Europe is thus "European" states that are primarily Aryan in terms of ethnic makeup?

I don't need to explain this further. It is sufficient to show that Korherr does not appear to include the GG as part of Europe, which is now done and sealed.

Poland disappeared under the Nazis and it became regions, that were to part of a greater Germany. Lebensraum would lead to it becoming German land, populated by Germans with Poles acting as forced labourers.

Other countries occupied by the Nazis did not experience the same level of take over as Poland did, with no Poles being left as part of the government or administration.

[SanityCheck]

Just as a matter of curiosity, as Nick mentioned Task Force Jakob on RODOH, I'm curious to know if he can share anything about Unit 51.

See, there was a bit of an administrative scuffle in Kertsch about Unit 51. I'm genuinely curious about it.

I assume it was a unit of specialized equipment like cranes or steam shovels or something.

The entire situation with the paperwork in regards to most of Organization Todt's projects is, atrocious. This particular seems spotty enough that so far I'm drawing a blank.

Einsatz Jakob was also known as OT-Einsatz I in 1941-2 before the formation of the OT-Einsatzgruppen in 1942. It was named after General der Pioniere Jakob, the OKH General of Engineers.

Seidler, Organisation Todt, pp.88-89 notes that Fritz Todt envisaged this with 20,000 German personnel, 5000 from the Reichsautobahnen, 10,000 from armaments construction workers and 5000 from construction firm personnel. Leadership from the construction administrations of the Generalinspektor fuer das deutsche Strassenwesen in Germany.

20 Einheiten of Einsatz Jakob existed at the start of Barbarossa, and these largely stayed as is. They were deployed with the frontline armies, and each Armeeoberkommando had an OT-Einsatz by 1942 as a coordinating staff. Thus best thought of as a construction regiment, when expanded with POWs and civilians a construction brigade. It was directed from the military side by the Armeepionierfuehrer, whose records are where one can find out more for various armies.

In August 1942, Einsatz Jakob was employing 23,730 foreigners and 26,800 POWs alongside 27,940 Germans. I.e. one can see that there were only so many Einheiten added to these frontline Einsaetze. One can see the allocation of POWs to the OT noted in monthly POW situation reports preserved in various armies' records plus OKH records.

Thus, for the whole of Army Group Centre on 1 August 1942, 17,077 POWs out of 129,900 were working for the OT. On the same date, the OT-Einsatzgruppe Russland-Mitte excluding Einsatz Jakob was employing 11,326 POWs and 35,946 foreigners, so by subtraction the frontline Einsaetze with the four armies of AGC were probably allocated 5,721 POWs, and likely employed more local peasants and Russian civilians.

I want to reiterate that OT was not the only labor org in the east and I will again reference TN. Thus, there is more on my plate. Then there are private firms, like IG Farben (I think I'm spelling that right) and many others.

Technische Nothilfe forces were under the HSSPFs, they were auxiliaries to the police. There were Technische Bataillone of the Army as well, approximately 1 per frontline army. Both were more specialist and more homogeneously German.