Why Do you Guys Think the Holocaust is Fake?

[Stubble]

That audio book by Dalton that I linked is fairly concise, although with a 12 hour run time, a little long. It covers much ground though, and a listen would be worth your time in my opinion.

I'd also suggest actually reading it.

[ConfusedJew]

To be fair, I'll address your points directly, one-by-one:

But how is it possible that basically every serious historian across countries and political lines converge on the same conclusion about the Holocaust?

It's possible in the same way religious leaders often converge upon key principles of their common religion. What you are doing is pointing out a common thread in a belief system, rather than taking a critical look at the methodology which leads to those beliefs. You've actually joined this discussion at a perfect time, one in which one of the world's premier anti-revisionist Holocaust historians, Dr. Nick Terry (SanityCheck), has demonstrated in remarkable fashion the orthodox Holocaust narrative's need to do away with fundamental critical thinking principles, in order to be accepted at all.

I understand that large groups of people can be very wrong about a subject due to groupthink, but aren't some groups more believable than others? Some groups have stronger willingness and ability to pursue truth than others. I don't think it makes sense to compare historians to religious leaders.

National politics, religions, schools, media, etc. all make very clear that indoctrinating people is far from a difficult task when powerful networks and 'authorities' are put to work in doing so. Even generating 'authorities' and 'experts' in any field are not so difficult; give them a flawed methodology and some satisfactory rationale, and they will become 'experts' in applying it. It also helps to tilt the social and professional incentives firmly in one direction (posh careers and social praise for 'Holocaust historians', social banishment and persecution for 'deniers').

So it is true that school systems can effectively brainwash their students to believe in myths. One can not be truly educated until they are self educated. But some self educated people believe some pretty dumb and crazy things. Conspiracies happen all the time, but there are definitely wildly false conspiracy theories. If you believe the Holocaust was faked, do you also believe that the spherical earth is fake or the moon landing was faked?

Your claim that 'basically every serious historian' converges upon the 'Holocaust' narrative does not account for how many have vs. have not been thoroughly exposed to revisionist arguments and interpretations. It doesn't account for how many are disincentivized from coming public about more critical views they may genuinely have. Only once open debate is widespread and normalized can we begin to estimate a true, meaningful distribution.

That's fine, I will look at the strongest "revisionist" arguments there are out there myself. There are like a million different arguments though so it is better if I can take a look at the very strongest claims first. If they don't hold up, the less strong arguments almost certainly.

It's great that you say questioning narratives like the Holocaust is "fair and necessary". Whether or not I believe you're sincere in saying this, I should point out that many Jews would certainly not say that, and they might even promote or tolerate that 'deniers' be put into prisons or at least be robbed of all financial opportunities and social standing.

This is a tricky subject but if somebody truly believes something and they say if for the right reasons, then it would be terrible to throw them in jail for what they said. But if people knowingly spread lies that can lead to violence, that's a very different question. We should come back to that one later because that one is hard to address right now.

If this is just about the Holocaust, and not anti Jewish in general, why are there so many other non-holocaust related criticisms of Jews and Israel on here?

Are Jewish matters not more relevant to a forum debating the Holocaust than to forums or other discussion venues in general? There are many Jewish individuals and networks involved in questions surrounding the development and proliferation of the 'Holocaust' narrative, and the fact that acceptance of this problematic narrative extends into present-day is an indication that concern and criticism about these networks still remains relevant. This naturally leads to other questions like, "well, what else might we be missing?".

I get that this could be a "safe space" to debate controversial topics that other people are afraid to discuss, but why is this largely focused on Jewish controversies and not a million other controversies like who killed JFK, did pharma cover up vaccine related deaths, is the Earth flat? This seems to be focused largely on Jewish controversies which would clearly demonstrate a bias.

Perhaps you are uncomfortable with people placing a critical eye upon Jewish behavior, for whatever reason. We don't shy away from any topic here, however, so long as appropriate in advancing the global knowledge, critical perspectives, and open debate surrounding our most central topic: the 'Holocaust'.

Personally I am not uncomfortable with criticisms of Jewish people. Criticism becomes a problem when people are inaccurate in their criticisms or hypocritically focus on issues within other vulnerable groups and not their own.

[ConfusedJew]

That audio book by Dalton that I linked is fairly concise, although with a 12 hour run time, a little long. It covers much ground though, and a listen would be worth your time in my opinion.

I'd also suggest actually reading it.

I unfortunately just don't have 12 hours to commit to listening to a single audio book and I also don't like audio books. Do you have a PDF or transcript though I could go through. With AI, you can get to the key points very quickly and then go even deeper if it is worth doing.

[Stubble]

Hang on for a minute and I'll see what I can do.

I'll edit this post when I find it, shouldn't take too long.

That took about 30 seconds;

https://odysee.com/@hocuspocusfocus:5/D ... _edition:0

Click the 3 dots and a dropdown will show with a download option.

Another thing to consider, I take that audiobook in chunks. I listen to a stoping point, then I do other things. I ruminate over it, for it is not enough just to possess a great volume of works lest we turn over them again and again, gleaning every oz of insight and meaning from their pages.

[Archie]

I don't really have the mental capacity to read through all these diverse arguments.

Can you present me with the 3 strongest reasons why you think the Holocaust didn't happen and we can go from there?

Something like an FAQ would be helpful so that each point can be addressed clearly.

So the five bullet points I gave you were too many for you? Really? Why don't you pick one of them and we can discuss it further.

Here is Germar Rudolf's FAQ
https://codoh.com/library/document/holo ... visionism/

[Callafangers]

I understand that large groups of people can be very wrong about a subject due to groupthink, but aren't some groups more believable than others? Some groups have stronger willingness and ability to pursue truth than others. I don't think it makes sense to compare historians to religious leaders.

It isn't about "believable", since this is a subjective term. Every Christian finds every Christian pastor "more believable" than they find any Muslim Imam to be.

The issue is: methodology, and whether this process stands up to scrutiny.

So it is true that school systems can effectively brainwash their students to believe in myths. One can not be truly educated until they are self educated. But some self educated people believe some pretty dumb and crazy things. Conspiracies happen all the time, but there are definitely wildly false conspiracy theories. If you believe the Holocaust was faked, do you also believe that the spherical earth is fake or the moon landing was faked?

This is an obvious fallacy, not worth addressing further.

That's fine, I will look at the strongest "revisionist" arguments there are out there myself. There are like a million different arguments though so it is better if I can take a look at the very strongest claims first. If they don't hold up, the less strong arguments almost certainly.

Revisionists are not the ones making the "claims" (least of all the absurd ones). It is exterminationists who make the claim that millions of Jews were forced into tiny chambers and 'gassed' via extraordinary methods - a claim they do not support with credible evidence of any kind.

This is a tricky subject but if somebody truly believes something and they say if for the right reasons, then it would be terrible to throw them in jail for what they said. But if people knowingly spread lies that can lead to violence, that's a very different question. We should come back to that one later because that one is hard to address right now.

Oh no, not another 'October 7th'.

I get that this could be a "safe space" to debate controversial topics that other people are afraid to discuss, but why is this largely focused on Jewish controversies and not a million other controversies like who killed JFK, did pharma cover up vaccine related deaths, is the Earth flat? This seems to be focused largely on Jewish controversies which would clearly demonstrate a bias.

Jewish controversies are very often related to Holocaust controversies. Jewish power, networks, history, and behavior being a common thread.

Personally I am not uncomfortable with criticisms of Jewish people. Criticism becomes a problem when people are inaccurate in their criticisms or hypocritically focus on issues within other vulnerable groups and not their own.

If you're really as open as you claim to criticism of Jewish people and networks, you're going to very much enjoy your time here. If what you're saying is not exactly true, however, you're going to have some challenges.

We don't shy away from the truth, we see right through 'pilpul' tactics and could not care less as you "cry out in pain" as you strike. Bring facts and valid inferences or you will only be humbled, here. It will be a big 'chillul Hashem'.

[ConfusedJew]

Hi CJ. Welcome to the forum. It might save us some time if you give us some indication of your background on the topic. Would you say you are new to the topic or are you well read on the Holocaust and/or Holocaust revisionism?

I am a little familiar but I'm far from an expert.

As far as our reasons, it's a complex topic so there are many different angles to take. Here are a few common ones (just high level, obviously sourcing and explaining the basis for each point would take some time):

-It's said to be 100% certain (most of us find this suspicious, especially when this confidence clashes so sharply with the actual evidence)

Will you provide the 3 most powerful pieces of evidence that I can take a look at? Each individual person will have different arguments so I definitely have heard all of them. Nothing is 100% certain in this world, so if you actually present good arguments or evidence, then I will address them and change my mind or estimates as long as I feel you are making good faith arguments and make enough logical sense.

-It's mostly based on testimonies, most of which fall apart when they are critically (or even casually) read and compared

I've seen a lot of non-testimonial evidence although testimonial evidence is not worthless. It has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Some of the testimonial evidence is very strong and credible in my opinion, but we can debate that.

-Lack of hard documentary evidence for an extermination program or mass scale gassing
-Lack of physical evidence for gas chambers. The Allies discovered "gas chambers" at Majdanek, Dachau, Mauthausen, etc but there were in our view mundane facilities like showers, morgues, delousing chambers, etc. These rooms lacked the technical features needed for a gas chamber. Many of these are not even claimed to be gas chambers anymore. We think all atrocity propaganda by the Allies.

The Wannsee Conference Protocol (1942) was signed by high-ranking Nazi officials and outlined the plan for the Final Solution, including mass extermination. It’s clear from this document that the Nazis intended to kill millions of Jews. Do you think that was a fake document?

The gas chamber at Majdanek was discovered largely intact after the camp was liberated. Archaeological studies of the structure show evidence of Zyklon B residues (the pesticide used for gassing) on the walls, which is hard scientific evidence that it was indeed used for mass murder. Additionally, the crematoria at Majdanek were found with remains of victims that confirm the scale of the killings. Why else would there have been residue of Zyklon B?

-Lack of physical evidence that six million were killed. Around 3M Jews are said to have been killed at just a handful of extermination camps (i.e., precisely known locations). And many of them are said to have been buried (and later dug up and burned). The corresponding mass graves (which would have been enormous) have never been demonstrated, and the implied cremation rates are not realistic, especially for the camps that relied on outdoor cremation with wood.

The figure of six million Jews is based on estimates from multiple sources including Nazi records, demographic studies, and post-war investigations. But it is an estimate and not an exact count of every individual victim.

The Nazis themselves kept detailed records of the number of people they transported to the camps. The train schedules, transport lists, and camp registration books, provide evidence of millions of Jews being sent to camps and list kept record of nationality, gender, and age.

We have a beginner's guide here if you want to get up to speed on what revisionists say.
viewforum.php?f=9

Thanks I will take a look at this.

[ConfusedJew]

'Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come to worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee'. Revelation 3:9.

This is a forewarning of the tribe, the thirteenth tribe who are the ashkenazi 'jews' but who are not jews they are imposters, fake. It is these people who the holocaust is all about and they are not jews. They are liars and imposters and have been lying today and for the past nigh on 1000 years.

As a non religious Jew, I don't accept the Torah as very credible source, nor do I accept the New Testament, especially Revelation, as being credible. That gets to be a religious debate rather than a historical debate so I would rather discuss things from a secular and historical perspective.

[ConfusedJew]

Hang on for a minute and I'll see what I can do.

I'll edit this post when I find it, shouldn't take too long.

That took about 30 seconds;

https://odysee.com/@hocuspocusfocus:5/D ... _edition:0

Click the 3 dots and a dropdown will show with a download option.

Another thing to consider, I take that audiobook in chunks. I listen to a stoping point, then I do other things. I ruminate over it, for it is not enough just to possess a great volume of works lest we turn over them again and again, gleaning every oz of insight and meaning from their pages.

I am starting to go through this with AI to speed up the process. These seem to be his main arguments which I think are either very weak or flawed.

Dalton argues that the figure of six million Jewish deaths is highly questionable. He contends that the number seems to have been used long before the end of World War II and lacks firm documentation. While he acknowledges that many Jews did die during the war, he believes that the actual death toll is much lower, possibly around 500,000.

One of the primary methods for estimating Holocaust deaths is demographic analysis. Researchers compare pre- and post-war Jewish population figures to estimate the number of Jewish victims. The Jewish Virtual Library and other demographic studies estimate the pre-war Jewish population at approximately 9.5 to 11 million. Following the end of World War II, estimates of the Jewish population were conducted, with significant losses in both Europe and Eastern Europe. These estimates are used to approximate how many Jews survived and how many perished. This method provides a broad estimate, and while it doesn't pinpoint the exact cause of every death, it suggests the scale of Jewish suffering in Nazi-occupied territories.

The Nazis did keep records during the Holocaust which provide hard data on the number of Jews deported, the number of individuals entering various camps, and sometimes even the number of individuals executed. However, the destruction of many records, either intentionally by the Nazis as they retreated or by subsequent Soviet and Allied actions, leaves many gaps in the documentation. The Nuremberg Trials and the Institute for Holocaust Research in Israel, as well as other institutions, have compiled and analyzed these records. They are part of the justification for the six million figure, though the incompleteness of the records has led to some uncertainty.

We can look into this more closely, the six million figure is probably overly precise, but I think the actual number would have been way over 500,000.

Dalton challenges the existence of extermination camps designed specifically for mass murder. While acknowledging that Nazi camps existed, he asserts that they were primarily labor camps, not sites of systemic genocide. He emphasizes that no conclusive "Hitler order" has been found to directly mandate the extermination of Jews. This claim undermines the conventional narrative that the Nazis were systematically killing Jews as part of a state-sponsored genocide.

The minutes from Wannsee, signed by Nazis, explicitly discuss the planned extermination of Jews across Europe. It shows there was a centralized, coordinated plan for the mass murder of Jews, beyond just forced labor. The “Final Solution” was specifically about the systematic extermination of Jews.

Himmler was one of the alleged main architects of the Holocaust and kept diaries and reports that directly referenced the implementation of mass extermination, including the use of gas chambers.

Those are very powerful pieces of physical evidence in my opinion. How does the "revisionist" community address those?

Dalton questions the reliability of many Holocaust survivor testimonies and argues that they often contain exaggerations, contradictions, and factual inaccuracies. He claims that much of the oral history surrounding the Holocaust consists of rumors or hearsay, rather than verifiable evidence. He also discusses how many survivor accounts have become standardized and stylized over time, sometimes conflating different events or fabricating details to fit a particular narrative.

Some of the individual survivor accounts most definitely will contain inconsistencies and inaccuracies. If you accept that the Holocaust did happen, you would imagine it would be terribly traumatic which would scramble people's memories. But there are thousands of survivor testimonies, from different nationalities, backgrounds, and experiences that describe events in a very similar way. I have even seen reports that some people lied about being Holocaust survivors but psychopaths exist in the world and they will lie for power, money, status, or sex. It doesn't mean that all testimonies are fake.

How is that for a start?

[Stubble]

Each of those has a corresponding thread I believe.

Your objections are textbook and boilerplate and are presented in the corresponding threads.

I see no reason to revisit them all here. Let's revisit each point in a pertinent containing thread as to make the forum of optimal use to posterity.

Everything I would be saying here has been said better and in more detail by others in the corresponding threads.

If you find a particular has not yet been broached, please, feel free to start a new one.

[ConfusedJew]

If you're really as open as you claim to criticism of Jewish people and networks, you're going to very much enjoy your time here. If what you're saying is not exactly true, however, you're going to have some challenges.

We don't shy away from the truth, we see right through 'pilpul' tactics and could not care less as you "cry out in pain" as you strike. Bring facts and valid inferences or you will only be humbled, here. It will be a big 'chillul Hashem'.

There was nothing in this thread that I even could respond to. You just ignored or rejected logical arguments without addressing them or providing any rational response. If there's a fallacy, explain why something is a fallacy and correct the logic. If a fact or argument is weak, explain why the fact or argument is weak. Otherwise, this is no real debate. To have a serious debate requires intellectual honesty and a commitment to solid arguments and evidence. If you're willing to do that, great, if not then you doubtfully believe your own positions.

[HansHill]

If you are looking for a quickfire set of bullet points, here are some I prepared for a different thread

Aktion Reinhardt
- CO isn't lethal in the quantities claimed (0.03% at idle from a diesel engine)
- There was never a reinforced housing mechanism demonstrated to withstand the air pressure buildup to that extent (500 g/cm2, or 80 metric tonnes on the ceiling alone)
- It is not possible to avoid reaching equilibrium and thus stalling the engine almost immediately

Auschwitz
- It has not been demonstrated how to outpace a US-Prison execution time using lower concentrations of HcN
- There is no conceivable way to get Zyklon pellets into the basement and back out again safely
- There is no chemical fingerprint of HcN in the Kremas

Aktion Reinhardt and Auschwitz
- The people making and prosecuting these claims have been found to be lying about untold other things and thus are not credible

Pick your favourites and I'll direct you to a relevant thread or resource to learn more.

[Callafangers]

If you are looking for a quickfire set of bullet points, here are some I prepared for a different thread

Aktion Reinhardt
- CO isn't lethal in the quantities claimed (0.03% at idle from a diesel engine)
- There was never a reinforced housing mechanism demonstrated to withstand the air pressure buildup to that extent (500 g/cm2, or 80 metric tonnes on the ceiling alone)
- It is not possible to avoid reaching equilibrium and thus stalling the engine almost immediately

Auschwitz
- It has not been demonstrated how to outpace a US-Prison execution time using lower concentrations of HcN
- There is no conceivable way to get Zyklon pellets into the basement and back out again safely
- There is no chemical fingerprint of HcN in the Kremas

Aktion Reinhardt and Auschwitz
- The people making and prosecuting these claims have been found to be lying about untold other things and thus are not credible

Pick your favourites and I'll direct you to a relevant thread or resource to learn more.

Here's an expanded version (some additional input and AI assistance ):

Aktion Reinhardt (AR) Camps

- Carbon Monoxide (CO) Lethality Issues: CO from diesel engines isn’t lethal in the quantities claimed (0.03% at idle), insufficient for mass gassing as alleged.
- Structural Feasibility of Gas Chambers: No reinforced housing mechanism has been demonstrated to withstand the extreme air pressure buildup (500 g/cm² or 80 metric tonnes on the ceiling alone) required for such operations.
- Engine Stall Due to Equilibrium: It is not possible to avoid reaching equilibrium in the confined space, stalling the engine almost immediately and rendering mass gassing impractical.
- Lack of Fuel Evidence for Cremations: Alleged mass cremations at AR camps (Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka) would require the largest manual logging operation in history, yet there’s no documentary or physical evidence (e.g., cleared forests, testimonies of massive wood shipments) to support such an endeavor.
- Insufficient Remains: Physical remains at AR camps are far below expected levels—Sobibor shows a maximum of ~15,000-48,000 corpses’ worth, Belzec very low tens of thousands, and Treblinka virtually nothing—disproving claims of millions 'Holocausted,' especially when considering alternative explanations like ghetto corpse disposal due to disease.
- No Documentary Evidence for Arrivals at Treblinka II (T-II): There are no records confirming 800,000 Jews arrived at T-II specifically, only Malkinia/Treblinka; claims of a massive shunting operation to T-II rely on few problematic witness statements with no corroborating documentation.
- Aktion Reinhardt’s Economic Purpose: Research suggests Aktion Reinhardt was named after Fritz Reinhardt, indicating an economic operation focused on dispossession and property reclamation, not extermination.

Auschwitz-Birkenau

- HCN Execution Time Disparity: It has not been demonstrated how to outpace U.S. prison execution times using lower concentrations of HCN, suggesting mass gassing timelines impossible.
- Practical Issues with Zyklon B Handling: There is no conceivable safe method to introduce and remove Zyklon B pellets into basement gas chambers, posing significant logistical and safety contradictions for alleged operations.
- No Incriminating Chemical Fingerprint: Despite claims of mass gassings, there are no significant traces of iron-cyanide (FeCN)—the stable compound indicative of long-term HCN exposure—in Krema brick/mortar at Birkenau, directly contradicting Zyklon B use for killing thousands or millions.
- Aerial Photo Discrepancies: Air photos during the war show no consistent evidence of mass cremation activity (e.g., smoke, burnt ground) at Birkenau during alleged peak operations, contradicting witness testimony about constant crematory activity and pyres.

General Issues Across Claims (AR and Auschwitz)

- Witness Credibility and Lies: Key witnesses and survivors frequently cited by orthodox historians exhibit patterns of obvious falsehoods and inconsistencies (e.g., Treblinka testimonies), with no significant in-group accountability among survivors or Allies to counter these lies, suggesting a coordinated narrative.
- No Explicit Extermination Orders or Admissions: Despite extensive archival control by Allied powers post-war, no contemporary explicit orders, diaries, or decoded messages reference 'Holocaust' extermination or gassing operations; claims rely on alleged 'code words' without verifiable proof of any kind, while Nazi diaries mention expulsion and evacuation instead.
- Lack of Photographic Evidence: Wartime air photos fail to show cleared forests or mass cremation traces (e.g., at Babi Yar or AR camps) where expected based on extermination claims, undermining witness accounts and forcing unsupported assertions of external fuel shipments.
- No Evidence of Gas Vans: No physical 'gas van,' blueprints, or designs have ever been found; claims rely solely on inconsistent rumors, spurious documents, and problematic post-war trial testimonies filled with absurdities and embellishments.
- Political and Narrative Suppression: Revisionist critique is suppressed through censorship and legal bans, not to 'protect victims’ memory' but potentially to shield a vulnerable narrative from informed criticism, as evidenced by historical Allied fabrications (e.g., USA, UK, Soviet Union lies and show trials) and lack of cross-accountability among powers post-war.

[Stubble]

If I may, a caveat.

No evidence of 'homicidal gas vans'.

Gas vans for field sanitation and fumigation are known to exist. It is my opinion that these are the historic unicorn 'gas vans' or at least the start of the 'homicidal gas van' rumors.

As far as the Kaiser's Koffee Kafe vans go, I went around and around with that a while back. Such an innocuous and mundane vehicle with a high bed would not have been suitable for loading with executees and then unloading the dead bodies. As a propaganda tool however it would have been very useful as these delivery Van's were common, and so, anyone who saw one would recall the rumor every time, thus propagating a sense of unease and tension and fear in the populace.

It would be like saying Penske or u haul vans were homicidal gas vans.

[Callafangers]

If I may, a caveat.

No evidence of 'homicidal gas vans'.

Gas vans for field sanitation and fumigation are known to exist. It is my opinion that these are the historic unicorn 'gas vans' or at least the start of the 'homicidal gas van' rumors.

As far as the Kaiser's Koffee Kafe vans go, I went around and around with that a while back. Such an innocuous and mundane vehicle with a high bed would not have been suitable for loading with executees and then unloading the dead bodies. As a propaganda tool however it would have been very useful as these delivery Van's were common, and so, anyone who saw one would recall the rumor every time, thus propagating a sense of unease and tension and fear in the populace.

It would be like saying Penske or u haul vans were homicidal gas vans.

I had not thought of that. Very interesting point (and quite comical). One day, Starbucks will also be looked back upon as a secret 'gassing' operation.