Holocaust Revisionism vs. Flat-Earth Theory

[HansHill]

Orthodox Holocaust Enjoyer: "B-b-but you can't find millions of jews!"
Chad Holocaust Rejector: "Exactly because they are not in the ground like you said they were"

???

[bombsaway]

Orthodox Holocaust Enjoyer: "B-b-but you can't find millions of jews!"
Chad Holocaust Rejector: "Exactly because they are not in the ground like you said they were"

???

I believe Archie conceded that based on the evidence at Belzec, 20,000 were buried there, presumably Jews. I think it's a terrible misread of the evidence, but even this is far more than anything you have for resettlement. You rely instead on notions of "liars" affecting a mass cover up of all the evidence, when nothing would suggest they were capable of it. If by liars you mean the USSR, they failed miserably to conceal much smaller events, like deportations of minority groups at a lower scale. If by liars you mean Jews, they failed conceal internal evidence of things like the Nakba and their other crimes against Palestinians. This was brought to light by Israelis themselves - see New Historians.

[Nazgul]

I knew that revisionism & accurate historical analysis of the Holocaust has been picking up steam—but wow I didn’t realize that the majority of humans think that the Holocaust is demonstrably false.

A new survey suggests that many Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners, young people, Muslims, and Hindus believe that facts about the genocide have been distorted. Only 54 percent of the world's population has heard of the Holocaust. Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts. the Atlantic
Here is the reality.

world.jpg (46.06 KiB) Viewed 155 times

[Nessie]

So many people would have left a lot of evidence and instead, there is none.

Left evidence doing what, exactly?

Living in camps and ghettos. The logistics accommodating, clothing, feeding and guarding millions of Jews in 1944 would have left a lot of documentary and eyewitness evidence.

We can speculate, just like how you speculate as to why millions of Jews or any humans' worth of remains aren't found under Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka, Chelmno, and Auschwitz-Birkenau combined.

There is evidence of huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains and the disposal of cremains in rivers at A-B. You just chose not to believe that evidence, so you have to speculate. I don't speculate, I follow the evidence.

We can speculate that Jews were doing something other than just scheming, hiding and assimilating, emigrating abroad, freezing, starving, rotting away, or getting shot behind the Iron Curtain, just like countless thousands (millions?) of others who also more or less 'vanished' there.

There is evidence of what happened to Jews who ended up on the Soviet side of the front line. Many got sent to gulags, as the Soviets did not trust them. The issue is the Jews who were arrested by the Nazis. They are the ones for whom evidence trails run out, primarily inside only 5 camps.

We can assume Jews and their communist networks were disconnected from postwar 'denazification' efforts and awareness of the role of a supposed 'millions of missing Jews' in that narrative and would prefer instead to be documented as "found" rather than "gassed".

We can speculate that someone should/would have been looking for a particular set of displaced Jews postwar and documenting their timelines and travels. We can assume there were no Jews who might have contradicted your narrative, had they been asked 60 years ago while they were still alive.

You are admitting the use of assumption and speculation, rather than evidence. The bottom line is, you cannot evidence what happened.

We can pretend your pool of witnesses is honest (or at least mostly so) and that wartime liars suddenly became interested in universal truth and that their having literally conquered the world is totally inconsequential in being able to shape its narratives thereafter.

It is terrible for you, when you admit to having to pretend.

We can pretend to believe that despite all of the liars we know exist, not a single one of them ever made it into the historical or postwar trial archives to meddle with the record, for better or worse.

We can do all of this assumption, speculation, etc. and maybe then do you have a point.

I follow the evidence, to establish what happened. You assume, speculate and pretend.

Or let's just keep it real: you can say nothing of the 'people who would have left a lot of evidence', given that you haven't found them -- and not finding them much better reflects movement than 'extermination'.

Not being able to find people, fits better with extermination, than movement.

You need them to be buried under Treblinka, though... because how else can you face your son at his bar mitzvah and tell him it'll be easy to keep swindling the goyim?

That comment explains your motive and why you believe in a hoax so impossible, that it is akin to believing the earth is flat.

[Callafangers]

Living in camps and ghettos. The logistics accommodating, clothing, feeding and guarding millions of Jews in 1944 would have left a lot of documentary and eyewitness evidence.

All we know is that they were put into "quarantine" and that this was part of postwar resettlement plans and also that this entire process was kept very secret due to the controversy it entailed. You have this assumption that documentation of such a top-secret facility (or set thereof) would leave documentation like Auschwitz or other facilities which were not near the Eastern front and were under entirely different administrative structure. But there is no reason to assume either that:

• Documentation was kept to a similar standard
• Documentation was maintained in the same locations
• Documentation should have survived post-war in Soviet hands

What we do have is official plans to resettle Jews, bizarre weaponized propaganda making it necessary to conceal perceived atrocities or the location of potential partisan recruits and subversives, and statements which we have every reason to consider authoritative and genuine (e.g. Goebbels' diary) stating plainly that these specific Jews were not genocided but, instead, "in quarantine" in the East.

There is evidence of huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains and the disposal of cremains in rivers at A-B. You just chose not to believe that evidence, so you have to speculate. I don't speculate, I follow the evidence.

It is you who has to speculate, Nessie. Revisionists have taken the only attempts in earnest to ascertain any reasonable estimate of the actual quantity of human remains at any of these sites. By all accounts, when analysis is proportionate to the evidence reported on in the physical investigations, the number of corpses at these sites fall short by orders of magnitude to what they should be, if your narrative were true. This is critical because, if the 'Holocaust' is true, there absolutely must be upwards of millions of Jews buried at these precise locations. Finding a tiny fraction of this figure is far more supportive of these sites having been used as mass cremation facilities on occasion but primarily for property sorting and transit, which is exactly what the documentation indicates 'Aktion Reinhardt' was all about.

There is evidence of what happened to Jews who ended up on the Soviet side of the front line. Many got sent to gulags, as the Soviets did not trust them. The issue is the Jews who were arrested by the Nazis. They are the ones for whom evidence trails run out, primarily inside only 5 camps.

There is scant evidence of what happened to some Jews on the Soviet side, and yes, the Soviets didn't trust them. This means expulsion or mass murder was by no means off the list, or at least targeting their Jewish identity to press for assimilation. But the question is also whether the Soviets saw value in postwar 'denazification' efforts (this is certainly the case). Either way, the Soviet attitude and position toward Jews at this time is deeply problematic for your position.

We can assume Jews and their communist networks were disconnected from postwar 'denazification' efforts and awareness of the role of a supposed 'millions of missing Jews' in that narrative and would prefer instead to be documented as "found" rather than "gassed".

We can speculate that someone should/would have been looking for a particular set of displaced Jews postwar and documenting their timelines and travels. We can assume there were no Jews who might have contradicted your narrative, had they been asked 60 years ago while they were still alive.

You are admitting the use of assumption and speculation, rather than evidence. The bottom line is, you cannot evidence what happened.

My statements were written tongue-in-cheek, clearly. The point is: Jews were overwhelmingly involved in communist networks hell-bent on sowing anti-German atrocity narratives. This is indisputable. The stark and inexplicable, highly-unusual pattern of lies within anti-German testimony counts as compelling evidence that such efforts were prevalent in key claims of the 'Holocaust'. There are hundreds if not thousands of such examples, compared to your mere dozens of witnesses who tell anything resembling a viable and evidence-based genocide narrative.

We can pretend your pool of witnesses is honest (or at least mostly so) and that wartime liars suddenly became interested in universal truth and that their having literally conquered the world is totally inconsequential in being able to shape its narratives thereafter.

It is terrible for you, when you admit to having to pretend.

We can pretend to believe that despite all of the liars we know exist, not a single one of them ever made it into the historical or postwar trial archives to meddle with the record, for better or worse.

We can do all of this assumption, speculation, etc. and maybe then do you have a point.

I follow the evidence, to establish what happened. You assume, speculate and pretend.

Or let's just keep it real: you can say nothing of the 'people who would have left a lot of evidence', given that you haven't found them -- and not finding them much better reflects movement than 'extermination'.

Not being able to find people, fits better with extermination, than movement.

You need them to be buried under Treblinka, though... because how else can you face your son at his bar mitzvah and tell him it'll be easy to keep swindling the goyim?

That comment explains your motive and why you believe in a hoax so impossible, that it is akin to believing the earth is flat.

You are really struggling to understand sarcasm, ridicule, etc. You receive it so often that you can't tell the difference anymore.

[ConfusedJew]

I knew that revisionism & accurate historical analysis of the Holocaust has been picking up steam—but wow I didn’t realize that the majority of humans think that the Holocaust is demonstrably false.

A new survey suggests that many Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners, young people, Muslims, and Hindus believe that facts about the genocide have been distorted. Only 54 percent of the world's population has heard of the Holocaust. Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts. the Atlantic
Here is the reality.
world.jpg

This is ironically probably Holocaust propaganda.

[HansHill]

Two things can be true at once. This can simultaneously be:

A - an example of Jews advancing a narrative to promote Jewish interests, and

B - an example of nobody giving a shit

[Archie]

Orthodox Holocaust Enjoyer: "B-b-but you can't find millions of jews!"
Chad Holocaust Rejector: "Exactly because they are not in the ground like you said they were"

???

I believe Archie conceded that based on the evidence at Belzec, 20,000 were buried there, presumably Jews. I think it's a terrible misread of the evidence, but even this is far more than anything you have for resettlement. You rely instead on notions of "liars" affecting a mass cover up of all the evidence, when nothing would suggest they were capable of it. If by liars you mean the USSR, they failed miserably to conceal much smaller events, like deportations of minority groups at a lower scale. If by liars you mean Jews, they failed conceal internal evidence of things like the Nakba and their other crimes against Palestinians. This was brought to light by Israelis themselves - see New Historians.

No I didn't. I may have said something like 20,000 was possible, but that is not the same as "conceding" 20,000 WERE in fact buried there. Possible != happened. I doubt it is as high as 20,000.

Not really. For one thing, the 21,000 is an extrapolation by Kola. The grave boundaries appear to be generous and that total volume includes the top dirt layer. The effective burial space could easily be a lot less.

In fact, 1-2 bodies per cu meter is not an usual burial density at all. A density of 5 per cu meter is high. Most mass graves are less than that.
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=189

The math ain’t mathing.

1 body in 2 cu m =\= 2 bodies in 1 cu m

Or am I missing something?

You are missing a lot of things.

The density of 1-2 bodies I said was typical. It is not a minimum. There is no real minimum because there is no reason you can't have disturbed soil with zero or very few bodies. If you assume something like 1 meter of top cover, that alone would be around 5,500 cu meters with zero bodies. For 2 meters (the proverbial six feet deep), that's over half of the grave space right there (with zero).

Based on grave space alone, we can discard the traditional claim of 600,000 as well as the alternate figure of 435,000. Cremation considerations are further reason to reject those claims. If it could be proved that some intermediate figure like 50,000 died at Belzec (this has not been done), then both sides would be wrong. In that case, revisionists would need to make a concession or give some accounting for that number of deaths. But since lower figures like 10,000 are perfectly plausible, I see no reason to make such a concession.

[ConfusedJew]

Ways in which Holocaust denial is similar to Flat Earth Theorizing:

1. Both involve dismissing overwhelming evidence and expert consensus. Holocaust deniers ignore extensive historical documentation, eyewitness testimony, and physical evidence. Flat-Earth believers reject centuries of astronomical observation, satellite imagery, and physics.

2. Both rely on the idea that large, coordinated groups are actively deceiving the public. Holocaust deniers often claim governments, historians, or Jews are spreading lies. Flat-Earth believers often assert NASA or the “space industry” is faking photos and data.

3. Both groups tend to focus on perceived inconsistencies while ignoring the vast bulk of supporting evidence. A Holocaust denier might point to minor discrepancies in survivor accounts; a flat-Earth believer might highlight perceived anomalies in horizon lines or airplane routes.

4. Belonging to these groups often becomes part of one’s identity. Members gain social reinforcement by being “aware” while the majority is “deceived.”

5. Both Holocaust denial and flat earthing can be fueled by distrust of authority, anti-establishment sentiment, or a desire to feel special or contrarian.

6. Evidence and logical arguments rarely change adherents’ minds because their beliefs are protected by a self-reinforcing worldview. Contradictory evidence is seen as further proof of conspiracy.

The key difference are the ethical and historical stakes. Holocaust denial erases the memory of genocide and is tied to anti-Semitism, whereas flat-Earth belief is largely harmless pseudoscience.

[bombsaway]

Orthodox Holocaust Enjoyer: "B-b-but you can't find millions of jews!"
Chad Holocaust Rejector: "Exactly because they are not in the ground like you said they were"

???

I believe Archie conceded that based on the evidence at Belzec, 20,000 were buried there, presumably Jews. I think it's a terrible misread of the evidence, but even this is far more than anything you have for resettlement. You rely instead on notions of "liars" affecting a mass cover up of all the evidence, when nothing would suggest they were capable of it. If by liars you mean the USSR, they failed miserably to conceal much smaller events, like deportations of minority groups at a lower scale. If by liars you mean Jews, they failed conceal internal evidence of things like the Nakba and their other crimes against Palestinians. This was brought to light by Israelis themselves - see New Historians.

No I didn't. I may have said something like 20,000 was possible, but that is not the same as "conceding" 20,000 WERE in fact buried there. Possible != happened. I doubt it is as high as 20,000.

The math ain’t mathing.

1 body in 2 cu m =\= 2 bodies in 1 cu m

Or am I missing something?

You are missing a lot of things.

The density of 1-2 bodies I said was typical. It is not a minimum. There is no real minimum because there is no reason you can't have disturbed soil with zero or very few bodies. If you assume something like 1 meter of top cover, that alone would be around 5,500 cu meters with zero bodies. For 2 meters (the proverbial six feet deep), that's over half of the grave space right there (with zero).

Based on grave space alone, we can discard the traditional claim of 600,000 as well as the alternate figure of 435,000. Cremation considerations are further reason to reject those claims. If it could be proved that some intermediate figure like 50,000 died at Belzec (this has not been done), then both sides would be wrong. In that case, revisionists would need to make a concession or give some accounting for that number of deaths. But since lower figures like 10,000 are perfectly plausible, I see no reason to make such a concession.

We know Kola described large presence of "crematory layers" in the graves. Being conservative, there are many hundreds, probably thousands, of cubic meters of layers there. We also know that layers are not pure cremains, but that those were mixed with sand. So based on what he wrote, how many cubic meters of crematory layers do you think there are at Belzec + what percentage of those layers were actually cremains? Answer these two questions, and you have formulated a rough estimate.

If your estimate is only a few hundred cubic meters of crematory layers and those layers were 99.99999% sand with a few human bodies worth of ash there, (say 1 body per grave), this is more evidence than the combined evidence you have for 1 million plus Reinhardt Jews being resettled in Russia. If only 1 Jew was definitively buried at Belzec that's still more evidence.

[HansHill]

Ways in which Holocaust denial is similar to Flat Earth Theorizing:

Except Holocaust revisionists have been exceptionally successful in demanding devastating revisions to the Orthodox narrative over the decades



To my mind, no "Flat Earther" has demanded devastating revisions from NASA to review their models?

What gives Confused Jew? You wouldn't be overtly trying to strain a comparison that doesn't work, would you?

[Stubble]

[...] this is more evidence than the combined evidence you have for 1 million plus Reinhardt Jews being resettled in Russia. If only 1 Jew was definitively buried at Belzec that's still more evidence.

To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.

The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group, in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injection is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green armbands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not reduced.

Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST

https://codoh.com/library/document/thre ... tation-of/

No, Bombsaway, it isn't...

The 'missing persons' are not where you claim they should be. They weren't killed at the transit camps at the rail gauge change points for army group north, center and south. They lived some place else, and perhaps died later.

If you are going to claim they were killed at Treblinka II, Sobibor and Belzec, you are going to have to illustrate where the dead were buried primarily before being cremated on outdoor pyres.

I apologize for the thread drift.

[bombsaway]

[...] this is more evidence than the combined evidence you have for 1 million plus Reinhardt Jews being resettled in Russia. If only 1 Jew was definitively buried at Belzec that's still more evidence.

To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.

The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group, in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injection is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green armbands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not reduced.

Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST

https://codoh.com/library/document/thre ... tation-of/

No, Bombsaway, it isn't...

The 'missing persons' are not where you claim they should be. They weren't killed at the transit camps at the rail gauge change points for army group north, center and south. They lived some place else, and perhaps died later.

If you are going to claim they were killed at Treblinka II, Sobibor and Belzec, you are going to have to illustrate where the dead were buried primarily before being cremated on outdoor pyres.

I apologize for the thread drift.

What's your evidence these Jews were transported through the Reinhardt camps to Russia? It's January 1942, nothing had even started then. Plus Reinhardt Jews were considered for unfit for work, the ones that were fit for work were kept in Poland. Resettlement =/= hard labor which "labour gangs" most certainly denotes. There's no evidence of non-working Jews being maintained anywhere in USSR during the German occupation. This is why Keen's 1 or 2 bodies is more evidence than you have for your silly theories, which by the way includes a mass cover up of this evidence. No indication of resettlement + no indication of a conspiracy to suppress evidence of that.

[HansHill]

What's your evidence these Jews were transported through the Reinhardt camps to Russia? It's January 1942, nothing had even started then. Plus Reinhardt Jews were considered for unfit for work, the ones that were fit for work were kept in Poland. Resettlement =/= hard labor which "labour gangs" most certainly denotes. There's no evidence of non-working Jews being maintained anywhere in USSR during the German occupation. This is why Keen's 1 or 2 bodies is more evidence than you have for your silly theories, which by the way includes a mass cover up of this evidence. No indication of resettlement + no indication of a conspiracy to suppress evidence of that.

!!

Bombsaway, lest we remind you, you need ~750,000 people in the ground at Treblinka. You need another ~250,000 in the ground at Sobibor, and another ~500,000 in the ground at Belzec.

What do you have, exactly?

[bombsaway]

What's your evidence these Jews were transported through the Reinhardt camps to Russia? It's January 1942, nothing had even started then. Plus Reinhardt Jews were considered for unfit for work, the ones that were fit for work were kept in Poland. Resettlement =/= hard labor which "labour gangs" most certainly denotes. There's no evidence of non-working Jews being maintained anywhere in USSR during the German occupation. This is why Keen's 1 or 2 bodies is more evidence than you have for your silly theories, which by the way includes a mass cover up of this evidence. No indication of resettlement + no indication of a conspiracy to suppress evidence of that.

!!

Bombsaway, lest we remind you, you need ~750,000 people in the ground at Treblinka. You need another ~250,000 in the ground at Sobibor, and another ~500,000 in the ground at Belzec.

What do you have, exactly?

Kola's grave descriptions at Belzec detail thousands of cubic meters of "crematory layers". If those layers are 10% cremains, your 500,000 figure may be reached, though I prefer the 434k listed in Hoefle (because it is a direct documentary source lol). The descriptions clearly don't preclude mass body destruction and burial. They are exactly the kind of evidence you would expect to see if hundreds of thousands of bodies were destroyed and buried, though admittedly we can't establish a precise figure (which would entail enormous effort - you tell me how, if not).

re Treblinka (self explanatory)

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition.

But as I said, even Keen's figure of 1 or 2 bodies is more than what exists for those Reinhardt Jews being maintained in Russia. You're not really reckoning with that.