A simple Sobibor Challenge for "Revisionists"

[Keen]

I had started at 10% of the alleged tally based on physical grave space projected by Kola.

I have amended my position to roughly 5,000 persons maximum buried at the alleged mass murder site based on review of the digs. I readily admit that this could be further drawn downward if the remains were actually quantified and found to be even less, which I consider to be very likely.

This is not 'The Revisionist Position' but merely my own personal assessment of the data as it has come down to us.

Callafangers:

you will need to at least take on the largest graves and make some attempt to estimate what is actually there, based on the descriptions provided between Kola/Mazurek.

...please quantify what you are saying.

This is easy work. The fact that you do not do it is transparent to anyone reading this thread. You are making the 'Holocaust' establishment look very weak and indefensible by your inability or unwillingness to even attempt to quantify, here.

Please take note of Callafangers gross hypocricy.

[Keen]

[Stubble]

Keen, I think 'The Revisionist Position' on Sobibor is the one outlined by Mattogno in the Holocaust Handbook by that name.

[Keen]

Keen, I think 'The Revisionist Position' on Sobibor is the one outlined by Mattogno in the Holocaust Handbook by that name.

Callafangers:

you will need to at least take on the largest graves and make some attempt to estimate what is actually there, based on the descriptions provided between Kola/Mazurek.

...please quantify what you are saying.

This is easy work. The fact that you do not do it is transparent to anyone reading this thread. You are making the 'Holocaust' establishment look very weak and indefensible by your inability or unwillingness to even attempt to quantify, here.

[Keen]

Keen, I think 'The Revisionist Position' on Sobibor is the one outlined by Mattogno in the Holocaust Handbook by that name.

Actually Stubble, I think the revisionist position on Sobibor was stated by Callafangers here:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19790#p19790

Callafangers:

* The ghettos notably did not have cremation facilities of their own
*Germany was greatly concerned about buried corpses poisoning ground water (e.g. this is the official reason for switching to cremation at Sobibor and at Chelmno, among other locations)
*As of 1942, Germany was establishing border stations (i.e. where AR camps were located) for typhus control purposes
*Trains were already leaving the ghettos en route toward the AR camp facilities (revisionists and exterminationists agree on this)

All of this strongly suggests the corpses dying of typhus in the ghettos ended up at the AR camps for sanitary disposal. The order of magnitude insofar as measurable corpse remains at the AR camps aligns with this perfectly, and it aligns not at all with the 'extermination' theory.

It's the retarded "holocaust by train" theory again.

This is what it really boils down to:

The exterminationist magically disappearing jew theory vs the exterminationist light holocaust by train theory.

And both of those theories are founded on the convergence of unsubstantiated allegations theory.

And both sides convergence of unsubstantiated allegations theory is "supported" by extrapolations based on estimates derived from assumptions.

You can't make this shit up.

[Keen]

Callafangers:

The revisionist narrative considers all of the evidence and fits it perfectly, once complete context is shown... the numbers of corpses we find under Sobibor (and other AR camps) aligns far better with a portion of natural deaths at ghettos sent to AR camps for cremation... The evidence is circumstantial but it's obviously the only possible explanation for why we see a few hundred (at most several thousand) corpses' worth of remains at camps like Sobibor...I might concede 2,500 but with certain questions and caveats; as low as 250 seems plausible... I should clarify that ~250 would be my absolute lower end...If we were playing The Price Is Right, I'd stand on ~3,500.

So it looks like the latest revisionist position on Sobibor keeps getting lower. It seems like it was just yesterday that they lowered their estimates:

Callafangers:

I'd lower my Sobibor estimate even further (from ~10-40,000 to ~9-36,000)

There's still one little itsy bitszy tiny little fact that the revisionists are trying hard to ignore:

OPENING / FUNDAMENTAL STATEMENT OF FACT: It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 100 graves in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these five sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

Note: Using the information presented on this website and applying legal standards used in U.S. courts, the above opening / fundamental statement of fact, which is written as, and can be defined as - a rebuttable presumption - can be - LEGALLY - ACCEPTED - AS - TRUE - in a U.S. court.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

Anyway, it seems the latest revisionist reduction has the Sobibor figure

down to 3,500.

And now for this:

Callafangers (to Nessie):

You will need to at least take on the largest graves and make some attempt to estimate what is actually there, based on the descriptions provided between Kola/Mazurek... please quantify what you are saying.

This is easy work. The fact that you do not do it is transparent to anyone reading this thread. You are making the 'Holocaust' establishment look very weak and indefensible by your inability or unwillingness to even attempt to quantify, here.

[Stubble]

Keen, did you, clip what I said, and remove my italics?

At this point, the theoretical grave space remaining according to the digs, would be sufficient for around 5,000 persons.

Being as generous as possible, and granting that grave space is grave space, and, has bodies in it, the orthodoxy is left, a few short of their alleged death tally.

For fuck's sake man.

[Keen]

Keen, did you, clip what I said, and remove my italics?

At this point, the theoretical grave space remaining according to the digs, would be sufficient for around 5,000 persons.

Being as generous as possible, and granting that grave space is grave space, and, has bodies in it, the orthodoxy is left, a few short of their alleged death tally.

For fuck's sake man.

I'm sorry if I misquoted you Stubble. I took what I quoted from this:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19858#p19858

Damn Fangers, you're making me look like a softie over here willing to grant a maximum of 5,000 based off of what I haven't seen.

I don't think I can meet you at 250 until the remains are actually quantified, or, a dig at least excavates more sand from the holes.

Based on the area not excavated, and assuming some bodies there, I get 5,000.

For the record, I think Mattogno should update his writings on the camp to reflect better what the digs turned up.

I edited out the quote in my post above. I must be misinterpreting what you are saying.

[Stubble]

Yup, must be.

Read it, and read what I wrote that had you edit your post. Notice the italics.

Perhaps I have been unclear, and for that, I could apologize. I'll work on being more clear.

In any case, hi Keen, good to see you are still kicking it man! Also, a hearty thank you for making me actually LOOK at what was in the studies, and not blindly read them. I also appreciate you pointing out the incongruency between Kola and the digs at Sobibor man.

[Keen]

Yup, must be.

Read it, and read what I wrote that had you edit your post. Notice the italics.

Perhaps I have been unclear, and for that, I could apologize. I'll work on being more clear.

In any case, hi Keen, good to see you are still kicking it man! Also, a hearty thank you for making me actually LOOK at what was in the studies, and not blindly read them. I also appreciate you pointing out the incongruency between Kola and the digs at Sobibor man.

Don't thank me, thank Mr. Gerdes.

[Stubble]

I'll send an email to the webmaster at his website and hope it reaches him.

This is because, he's not here. He also didn't make me, actually look, you did man.

[Keen]

I'll send an email to the webmaster at his website and hope it reaches him.

This is because, he's not here. He also didn't make me, actually look, you did man.

Thanks Stubble, but give yourself credit as well for having an open mind.

[Keen]

It appears we have an update on the revisionist position on Sobibor.

Callafangers:

Nessie: ...The graves are numbered -- specify which grave numbers (e.g. Grave 1) you are referring to and what proportion you would estimate there, based on the description(s) given by Kola/Mazurek. This is a direct challenge, please do not dodge.

I have gone over each of the instances of reported findings and densities, stoppages, etc. What is important is that there are some major graves where this stoppage was almost non-existent. Grave 1 was excavated at great depth, and it was found that almost no corpse remains are in this grave at all, invalidating Kola's reports here and demonstrating his pattern of exaggeration. This is further reinforced for Grave 2, which only has a smaller 15 x 15 meter core area with minimal cremains overwhelmed by sand. Grave 3/4 turns out to be sand-heavy and only unburnt remains. Other graves (e.g. Grave 5) has only unburnt remains as well, and Grave 6 also consists largely of sand, and Grave 7 is yet another (like Grave 1) that is ruled out entirely as a grave (no corpses at all).

The revisionist narrative considers all of the evidence and fits it perfectly, once complete context is shown... If we were playing The Price Is Right, I'd stand on ~3,500.

Well, hopefully will will soon see Callafangers quantification vs Nessie's quanitification.

3,500 divided by 7 equals 500 and 250,000 divided by 7 equals 35,714.

This should be interesting.

* Note that neither Callafangers or Nessie are bringing up the fact that GPR allegedly proved the exact size of the "huge mass graves" and the exact location of ALL the alleged "huge mass graves."

That is why the NOVA program was disappeared.

[Stubble]

Keen, have you got enough material about the GPR farce for a thread? I find this particular bit of erroneous forensics interesting, not only because it appears to be completely suppressed, but also because when it is mentioned, it is reportedly 'absolute proof'...

I suppose they didn't want to 'prove' Sobibor in the same way Treblinka II was 'proven' with GPR (namely that the data rather disproved the thesis).

[Keen]

Keen, have you got enough material about the GPR farce for a thread? I find this particular bit of erroneous forensics interesting, not only because it appears to be completely suppressed, but also because when it is mentioned, it is reportedly 'absolute proof'...

I suppose they didn't want to 'prove' Sobibor in the same way Treblinka II was 'proven' with GPR (namely that the data rather disproved the thesis).

I really don't Stubble. I shared something with you a while back that showed one GPR scan and the info in the NOVA trailer is the only other info that I have.

With that said, this thread has gotten off track, and I want to get it back on track as per the OP.

Callafangers:

There is an abundance of unburnt human remains found in these graves, especially Graves 3-5... It is honestly staggering how clear-cut and conclusive the revisionist position is regarding the forensics.

Let's see a list of all the people that, it is known for a fact, who actually saw, with their own eyes - "a large quantity / heavy concentrations" of "unburnt corpse remains" within Sobibors alleged "huge mass graves" 1-7.

As Callafangers says: "This is easy work."

I'll discuss other Sobibor issues here:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=602