Just as a test I had the AI read me Auschwitz: Forensically Examined. I ran it at 3.5x normal speed. It was intelligible and the run time wasn't too bad. I didn't time it, but, it was either an hour and a half or two hours (I was doing morning rat killing).
To my surprise, the AI will read it. So, it would be possible for CJ to listen to it.
This is of course not as useful or fruitful an exercise as, say, reading it, or, ideally, reading and handling a paper copy, but, it is possible.
Just food for thought.
Forensic Chemistry
Re: Forensic Chemistry
If I were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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Re: Forensic Chemistry
Please lay out those differences here and I'll tell you what I think of it. It seemed very pedantic at first but I will take a closer look.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
Sure.ConfusedJew wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 3:58 pm Please lay out those differences here and I'll tell you what I think of it. It seemed very pedantic at first but I will take a closer look.
Model A: The pellets stay inside the column for the duration of the gassing, to be extracted via the same column after the gassing has completed*
Model B: The pellets fall through the column onto the floor and swept up**
This was in direct refutation of:
“Why did both survivors and SS officers describe the same gassing method independently if it never happened?”
* As per Pressac, Jan Van Pelt, Green
** As per Sonderkommandos, example below:
[Greif] Did the grid column through which the gas was dropped reach all the way down to the floor?
[Chazan] Nearly to the floor. One had left a space which made it possible to clean there. One poured water out and brushed up the remaining pebbles.”
G. Greif, Wir weinten tränenlos… Augenzeugenberichte der jüdischen “Sonderkommandos” in Auschwitz, Böhlau Verlag, Cologne/Weimar/Vienna 1985, p. 237.
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Re: Forensic Chemistry
None of Pressac, Jan Van Pelt, Green were direct witnesses as I understand it and it doesn't really matter to me that they made a minor error about the delivery mechanism whether the poison fell all the way to the floor or not, especially if they were not there.
Yes, I doubt many neutral people would care at all about a minor error from some historians. Is this where we are hitting our impasse?
I wanted to do the chemistry though and this is an eyewitness testimony. I already knew that you guys cherry picked minor blemishes with the testimonies to try and deny the whole story.
Yes, I doubt many neutral people would care at all about a minor error from some historians. Is this where we are hitting our impasse?
I wanted to do the chemistry though and this is an eyewitness testimony. I already knew that you guys cherry picked minor blemishes with the testimonies to try and deny the whole story.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
Thank you Confused Jew, and yes I agree - it's a real shame that Pressac, Van Pelt and Green not only deviated from, but insisted on reversing the testimony of those that were there.ConfusedJew wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 8:35 pm None of Pressac, Jan Van Pelt, Green were direct witnesses as I understand it and it doesn't really matter to me that they made a minor error about the delivery mechanism whether the poison fell all the way to the floor or not, especially if they were not there.
Yes, I doubt many neutral people would care at all about a minor error from some historians. Is this where we are hitting our impasse?
I wanted to do the chemistry though and this is an eyewitness testimony. I already knew that you guys cherry picked minor blemishes with the testimonies to try and deny the whole story.
Fellas?
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Re: Forensic Chemistry
You aren't explaining yourself here well.HansHill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 8:42 pmThank you Confused Jew, and yes I agree - it's a real shame that Pressac, Van Pelt and Green not only deviated from, but insisted on reversing the testimony of those that were there.ConfusedJew wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 8:35 pm None of Pressac, Jan Van Pelt, Green were direct witnesses as I understand it and it doesn't really matter to me that they made a minor error about the delivery mechanism whether the poison fell all the way to the floor or not, especially if they were not there.
Yes, I doubt many neutral people would care at all about a minor error from some historians. Is this where we are hitting our impasse?
I wanted to do the chemistry though and this is an eyewitness testimony. I already knew that you guys cherry picked minor blemishes with the testimonies to try and deny the whole story.
Fellas?
But I am also still waiting for a compelling reason as to why they found cyanide residue in the gas chambers and what is wrong with the Markiwiecz report.
This discrepancy is also small enough that it wouldn't matter if it came from eyewitness testimony in my opinion.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
I am staggered at the lack of critical thinking on display. Utterly staggered.
I warned you two pages ago that you are sleepwalking into a comical contradiction, and I begged you to please start thinking clearly and critically. I begged you to start paying attention to this.
Here you are on page two of this thread, arguing for a <30 minute exposure time:
If the pellets fall through the column onto the floor, they will continue to off-gas, trapped between the pile of 2,000 dead bodies. As the Sonderkommandos open the doors, they will begin to slowly unload the room 1-by-1 as the pellets continue to off-gas the entire time of the unloading and clean up. This alone means you do not have a <30 minute exposure time.
This cannot be made any clearer, I have bent over backwards to spoonfeed this to you. This thread of argumentation is why the experts insist the Sonderkommando is wrong or lying, and insist on the columns to whisk the pellets out immediately. You cannot accept both the Sonderkommandos method and the expert's method simultaneously, and you struggling so much with this concept is alarming, despite all the prompts, warning, spoonfeeding, handholding, and begging for you to start reading and listening and paying attention.
Like I said, I am staggered at your lack of critical thinking skills - You are simply unequipped to think rationally and critically about this material, including what you yourself are writing / copy-pasting, and applying it all to the big picture.
"But i only want to talk about the chemistry!"
This is the chemistry and you don't even realise it.
I warned you two pages ago that you are sleepwalking into a comical contradiction, and I begged you to please start thinking clearly and critically. I begged you to start paying attention to this.
Here you are on page two of this thread, arguing for a <30 minute exposure time:
Here you are on page 14 arguing its no big deal for the pellets to fall out the bottom of the columns:ConfusedJew wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:55 pm 1. Prolonged exposure to HCN - The gassings were short (often <30 minutes) which was too little time for wall absorption.
Confused Jew, I will make this as crystal clear for you as I can - it has been evident to everybody else here paying attention, for at least the last 2 pages but probably 10 pages of this thread:ConfusedJew wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 10:14 pm This discrepancy is also small enough that it wouldn't matter if it came from eyewitness testimony in my opinion.
If the pellets fall through the column onto the floor, they will continue to off-gas, trapped between the pile of 2,000 dead bodies. As the Sonderkommandos open the doors, they will begin to slowly unload the room 1-by-1 as the pellets continue to off-gas the entire time of the unloading and clean up. This alone means you do not have a <30 minute exposure time.
This cannot be made any clearer, I have bent over backwards to spoonfeed this to you. This thread of argumentation is why the experts insist the Sonderkommando is wrong or lying, and insist on the columns to whisk the pellets out immediately. You cannot accept both the Sonderkommandos method and the expert's method simultaneously, and you struggling so much with this concept is alarming, despite all the prompts, warning, spoonfeeding, handholding, and begging for you to start reading and listening and paying attention.
Like I said, I am staggered at your lack of critical thinking skills - You are simply unequipped to think rationally and critically about this material, including what you yourself are writing / copy-pasting, and applying it all to the big picture.
"But i only want to talk about the chemistry!"
This is the chemistry and you don't even realise it.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
All I can do is post this as a rebuttal, I have no words really.
I should have saved it, this post belongs below the two after it.
I should have saved it, this post belongs below the two after it.
Last edited by Stubble on Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
If I were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
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Re: Forensic Chemistry
You simply aren't communicating clearly and you are resorting to being disrespectful which is not OK with me. You are making very technical arguments about things that I am familiarizing myself with now. You are assuming that I have very detailed knowledge of this which I don't and very few do.
What I am gathering is that you are trying to argue that it would have been impossible to apply gas for only 30 minutes?
This is what I'm seeing is an explanation of how the logistics worked:
You're assuming that Zyklon B pellets would continue off-gassing at lethal rates long after gassing ended. In reality, Zyklon B off-gasses rapidly upon exposure to air, and its potency decreases sharply with time, temperature, and ventilation. The Sonderkommandos did not immediately enter sealed chambers; they waited for aeration to reduce toxicity, which matches both technical documentation and testimonies.
You're presenting a false choice between ‘experts’ and ‘Sonderkommandos.’ In fact, expert reconstructions often incorporate and validate key aspects of survivor testimony, even while accounting for inconsistencies under extreme trauma. The insertion columns were designed to allow pellet removal after outgassing, not during body removal — solving the very problem you’re describing.
Numerous forensic studies (e.g., Pressac, van Pelt) have examined the gas chamber layout, airflow, Zyklon B dispersal, and body removal processes. They acknowledge the need for ventilation time — sometimes hours — before Sonderkommandos entered. You seem to assume an unrealistic immediate entry, which the historical record does not support.
This is what I am seeing actually happened but just correct the account if you don't agree with it:
1. Zyklon B came in pellet or granule form, saturated with hydrogen cyanide (HCN). It was introduced through four openings in the ceiling of the gas chamber, which were fitted with wire mesh insertion columns. These mesh columns ran from the roof to the floor.
2. Guards poured pellets into the top of these columns from outside the chamber. The mesh design allowed gas to escape into the room evenly while preventing access to the pellets from inside. This matches both SS blueprints and testimonies from Sonderkommando survivors and post-war confessions from SS personnel (like Rudolf Höss, camp commandant).
3. After the pellets were dropped in, the chamber was sealed. Victims died within 10–20 minutes, depending on conditions. Zyklon B off-gassed very rapidly at warm temperatures. Most of its HCN was released in the first 20–30 minutes.
4. Once the victims were dead, the room was not opened immediately. The chamber had a mechanical ventilation system that pulled in fresh air and pushed out gas. This took up to several hours, depending on external temperature and system effectiveness. Only after ventilation did the Sonderkommando enter — often wearing improvised protection (e.g., wet cloths over mouths). The ventilation cleared most of the dangerous gas before entry, and the remaining Zyklon B pellets had already expelled most of their cyanide.
5. The inner mesh container inside the wire mesh columns could be lifted out from above. By the time this was done, the pellets had finished outgassing and were no longer dangerous. Any residue was handled during chamber cleanup after bodies were removed.
Sources supporting this:
Jean-Claude Pressac (chemist/historian), Rudolf Höss (Nuremberg testimony and memoirs), Filip Müller and other Sonderkommando survivors, Robert Jan van Pelt (architectural historian), Auschwitz blueprints and SS construction documents recovered after the war
The biggest mistake that you are making is that Zyklon B’s gas release slows down quickly after the first ~20 minutes and that the chambers were ventilated before entry. Pellets could be collected later, especially once they were no longer releasing much gas.
What I am gathering is that you are trying to argue that it would have been impossible to apply gas for only 30 minutes?
This is what I'm seeing is an explanation of how the logistics worked:
You're assuming that Zyklon B pellets would continue off-gassing at lethal rates long after gassing ended. In reality, Zyklon B off-gasses rapidly upon exposure to air, and its potency decreases sharply with time, temperature, and ventilation. The Sonderkommandos did not immediately enter sealed chambers; they waited for aeration to reduce toxicity, which matches both technical documentation and testimonies.
You're presenting a false choice between ‘experts’ and ‘Sonderkommandos.’ In fact, expert reconstructions often incorporate and validate key aspects of survivor testimony, even while accounting for inconsistencies under extreme trauma. The insertion columns were designed to allow pellet removal after outgassing, not during body removal — solving the very problem you’re describing.
Numerous forensic studies (e.g., Pressac, van Pelt) have examined the gas chamber layout, airflow, Zyklon B dispersal, and body removal processes. They acknowledge the need for ventilation time — sometimes hours — before Sonderkommandos entered. You seem to assume an unrealistic immediate entry, which the historical record does not support.
This is what I am seeing actually happened but just correct the account if you don't agree with it:
1. Zyklon B came in pellet or granule form, saturated with hydrogen cyanide (HCN). It was introduced through four openings in the ceiling of the gas chamber, which were fitted with wire mesh insertion columns. These mesh columns ran from the roof to the floor.
2. Guards poured pellets into the top of these columns from outside the chamber. The mesh design allowed gas to escape into the room evenly while preventing access to the pellets from inside. This matches both SS blueprints and testimonies from Sonderkommando survivors and post-war confessions from SS personnel (like Rudolf Höss, camp commandant).
3. After the pellets were dropped in, the chamber was sealed. Victims died within 10–20 minutes, depending on conditions. Zyklon B off-gassed very rapidly at warm temperatures. Most of its HCN was released in the first 20–30 minutes.
4. Once the victims were dead, the room was not opened immediately. The chamber had a mechanical ventilation system that pulled in fresh air and pushed out gas. This took up to several hours, depending on external temperature and system effectiveness. Only after ventilation did the Sonderkommando enter — often wearing improvised protection (e.g., wet cloths over mouths). The ventilation cleared most of the dangerous gas before entry, and the remaining Zyklon B pellets had already expelled most of their cyanide.
5. The inner mesh container inside the wire mesh columns could be lifted out from above. By the time this was done, the pellets had finished outgassing and were no longer dangerous. Any residue was handled during chamber cleanup after bodies were removed.
Sources supporting this:
Jean-Claude Pressac (chemist/historian), Rudolf Höss (Nuremberg testimony and memoirs), Filip Müller and other Sonderkommando survivors, Robert Jan van Pelt (architectural historian), Auschwitz blueprints and SS construction documents recovered after the war
The biggest mistake that you are making is that Zyklon B’s gas release slows down quickly after the first ~20 minutes and that the chambers were ventilated before entry. Pellets could be collected later, especially once they were no longer releasing much gas.
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Re: Forensic Chemistry
There were a few inconsistencies in the witness testimony, that one would naturally expect under this situation:
Some Sonderkommando survivors described SS men simply dumping pellets through roof holes. Others did not mention wire mesh columns, possibly because they couldn’t see them from their vantage point or weren’t involved in that exact step.
Based on SS blueprints and testimonies from SS men, experts concluded there were wire mesh columns to lower Zyklon B and retrieve it. Not all survivors describe the wire mesh columns — leading to debate about whether they were always used or just assumed based on plans.
This isn't so shocking because survivors may not have seen the process directly or were focused on the horrifying results (dead bodies, not the technical method of pellet insertion). Some may also have been involved in later cleanup stages, not during gassing.
Some Sonderkommandos said they entered the chamber 30 minutes after gassing while others suggested they waited up to 2 hours. Experts believe ventilation took longer — usually an hour or more — especially in colder weather. Some reconstructions (like Pressac’s) argue that re-entry times varied depending on the setup and urgency.
Survivors may underreport or vary in how long they waited due to trauma, stress, or memory distortion. Human memory, especially under life-threatening duress, can easily compress or confuse time estimates. Survivors weren’t timing it — they were trying to survive horrible conditions.
There were variations in how survivors described the size, lighting, and layout of the gas chambers (e.g., number of doors, vents, or capacity). Blueprints give very specific measurements of Crematoria II and III. Some survivor descriptions don’t match exactly (e.g., dimensions, door placement). I really don't know why you would expect survivors to remember the names and architectural plans of buildings where they witnessed and experienced terrible things.
These aren’t “smoking gun” contradictions — they’re normal discrepancies in recollection that you'd expect given the circumstances.
Some Sonderkommando survivors described SS men simply dumping pellets through roof holes. Others did not mention wire mesh columns, possibly because they couldn’t see them from their vantage point or weren’t involved in that exact step.
Based on SS blueprints and testimonies from SS men, experts concluded there were wire mesh columns to lower Zyklon B and retrieve it. Not all survivors describe the wire mesh columns — leading to debate about whether they were always used or just assumed based on plans.
This isn't so shocking because survivors may not have seen the process directly or were focused on the horrifying results (dead bodies, not the technical method of pellet insertion). Some may also have been involved in later cleanup stages, not during gassing.
Some Sonderkommandos said they entered the chamber 30 minutes after gassing while others suggested they waited up to 2 hours. Experts believe ventilation took longer — usually an hour or more — especially in colder weather. Some reconstructions (like Pressac’s) argue that re-entry times varied depending on the setup and urgency.
Survivors may underreport or vary in how long they waited due to trauma, stress, or memory distortion. Human memory, especially under life-threatening duress, can easily compress or confuse time estimates. Survivors weren’t timing it — they were trying to survive horrible conditions.
There were variations in how survivors described the size, lighting, and layout of the gas chambers (e.g., number of doors, vents, or capacity). Blueprints give very specific measurements of Crematoria II and III. Some survivor descriptions don’t match exactly (e.g., dimensions, door placement). I really don't know why you would expect survivors to remember the names and architectural plans of buildings where they witnessed and experienced terrible things.
These aren’t “smoking gun” contradictions — they’re normal discrepancies in recollection that you'd expect given the circumstances.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
HansHill, can you post the testimony where the witness talks about seeing the full load of pellets spilled on the floor?
Re: Forensic Chemistry
For some reason, these latest posts from CJ remind me of the retort given to Rassinier when he rebutted Abbé Jean-Paul Renard.
It doesn't matter if we are talking about what will be pawned off as AI hallucinations, the operation of the gas chambers, the various different interpretations there of, the forced confession of Hoess or anything else, it will all be 'hardly significant'.
No, CJ, it's not. The truth matters.
...during the period directly after the war, a number of former concentration-camp inmates began to publish articles and books about their experiences. One of these concentration-camp authors was a French priest called Abbé Jean-Paul Renard, who had written: “I saw how thousands upon thousands of people entered the showers in Buchenwald, from which then flowed suffocating gas instead of a liquid.”...
H.H.#15-LOTH p.60...When Rassinier objected to this that he knew from his own experience that there were no gas chambers, Abbé Renard responded (Rassinier 1959, pp. 153f.): Ill. 11: Paul Rassinier “Agreed, but this is merely a literary expression, and since such things happened somewhere after all, this is hardly significant.”...
It doesn't matter if we are talking about what will be pawned off as AI hallucinations, the operation of the gas chambers, the various different interpretations there of, the forced confession of Hoess or anything else, it will all be 'hardly significant'.
No, CJ, it's not. The truth matters.
If I were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
What did eyewitnesses say? That is eyewitnesses, not second hand accounts from people who did not see into the chambers.
Tauber; "Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can that was pulled out with a wire to recover the pellets from which the gas had evaporated."
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890
Mueller; "The Zyclon B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars made of sheet metal. They were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible."
"Maurice and I continued stripping corpses. Cautiously I began to look round. I noticed that there were some small greenish-blue crystals lying on the concrete floor at the back of the room. They were scattered beneath an opening in the ceiling. A large fan was installed up there, its blades humming as they revolved. It struck me that where the crystals were scattered on the floor there were no corpses, whereas in places further away, particularly near the door, they were piled high."
https://archive.org/details/three-years ... 2/mode/2up
Kula: "The contents of the Zyklon can were dumped from above onto the distribution cone. That allowed for an even distribution of the Zyklon on all four walls of the post. After the gas had dissipated, the whole middle post was taken out and the silica was removed."
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/sho ... nt?id=3894
Why the difference? The answer is that Kremas II and III had the Kula columns and Kremas IV and V did not.
Tauber; "Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can that was pulled out with a wire to recover the pellets from which the gas had evaporated."
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890
Mueller; "The Zyclon B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars made of sheet metal. They were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible."
"Maurice and I continued stripping corpses. Cautiously I began to look round. I noticed that there were some small greenish-blue crystals lying on the concrete floor at the back of the room. They were scattered beneath an opening in the ceiling. A large fan was installed up there, its blades humming as they revolved. It struck me that where the crystals were scattered on the floor there were no corpses, whereas in places further away, particularly near the door, they were piled high."
https://archive.org/details/three-years ... 2/mode/2up
Kula: "The contents of the Zyklon can were dumped from above onto the distribution cone. That allowed for an even distribution of the Zyklon on all four walls of the post. After the gas had dissipated, the whole middle post was taken out and the silica was removed."
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/sho ... nt?id=3894
Why the difference? The answer is that Kremas II and III had the Kula columns and Kremas IV and V did not.
Re: Forensic Chemistry
The longer the exposure to HCN, the more chance Prussian blue has to form. Witness estimations of how long gassings took and how long pellets were inside the chamber, is part of the evidence explaining the alleged lack of Prussian blue. If all the pellets are pulled out by the wire column, as opposed to just lying on the floor, that reduces the time exposure. Descriptions of pellets on the floor, as opposed to being inside the columns, will be due to the different processes at the different Kremas.
Looking at the forensics, without looking at the other evidence, is cherry-picking and poor evidential procedure.