Why Do you Guys Think the Holocaust is Fake?

[AreYouSirius]

As predicted this pompous person didn’t show any interest in discussing or learning about people who “went through” worse experiences than ‘jews’ did during WW2.

Nor does CJ have any interest in the ongoing genocide and cruel mass-murder being perpetrated bu jews NOW in occupied Palestine.

Very revealing!

I have no interest in discussing anything with you further and you shouldn't expect a response on anything. I'm only responding to this so other people know why I will be ignoring your messages.

I will be only be responding to serious, relevant, and respectful comments and people from now on.

Well that’s convenient. Kind of a feeble attempt to sidestep having to grapple with the difficult notion that Palestinians are suffering at the hands of European Zionist-supremacist (and let’s be real, white-supremacist) colonizers, and are suffering to a greater degree than Jews did during WWII.

[ConfusedJew]

As a matter of principle, I am just not going to deign to respond to clearly racist (and stupid) comments.

[AreYouSirius]

As a matter of principle, I am just not going to deign to respond to clearly racist (and stupid) comments.

I don’t know why you get to “pass go” on the game board and bypass any unflattering conversation or reflection about Judaism, nor ever discuss the cluster of powerful people in modern human society who carry the illusion of embodying authentic Jewish identity.

I’ve had to come to uncomfortable realizations with regards to my Mormon upbringing: the church, its leaders, and their wealth-hoarding to the detriment of the programmed religious adherents.

It’s objectively silly to expect to log in with an account at a Holocaust revisionist forum as a “Confused Jew,” create many conversations and engender discussions, and somehow magically never have to deal with any sort of conversation regarding—what does Norm Finkelstein call it—oh, “Jewish supremacy.”

To be scandalized any time there is a noticing is just wearing thin. Eventually you’re gonna need to work up a justification or perhaps perform some uncomfortable self-reflection.

[ConfusedJew]

Norman Finkelstein is not a serious commentator or scholar. He's narcissistic and he is seeking attention more than societal change or truth.

It's not about flattering or unflattering. It's just disrespectful. I wouldn't make those same comments about the Mormon Church that you made to me but I know a handful of people who have left the Mormon Church and have been badly traumatized by it and the community. All religions and ethnic groups and societies and families have their own issues, I'm not going to single anyone or any group out especially when it doesn't personally affect me.

I don't know about Mormon wealth hoarding but I certainly wouldn't expect all Mormons to do that. Even if there is plenty of of wealth hoarding in the Mormon community, they are certainly not the only ones to do that. You seem traumatized from your experience and you are taking this out on Jewish people. Maybe you should reflect on that behavior.

[ConfusedJew]

Out of curiosity, I am looking at this now.

The LDS Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) became so wealthy through a combination of disciplined financial management, consistent revenue streams from tithing, strategic investments, and asset accumulation over nearly two centuries.

Members are strongly encouraged (and in some cases socially or spiritually expected) to donate 10% of their income to the Church. Millions of members worldwide contribute. These tithes generate billions of dollars annually, even if many members are not high-income earners.

The Church created a secretive but highly effective investment fund called Ensign Peak Advisors in the 1990s which has quietly grown due to investments in stock markets, real estate, private equity, and hedge funds. As of a 2019 whistleblower report, Ensign Peak managed over $100 billion in assets, much of which had grown tax-free because of the Church's nonprofit status.

The Church owns an enormous portfolio of real estate, including temples, meetinghouses, and universities (like BYU), income-generating properties (office buildings, malls, etc.), and agricultural lands (including some of the largest ranches and farms in the U.S. and abroad).

The Church owns a for-profit umbrella company, Deseret Management Corporation, which oversees media, insurance, publishing and distribution, and property management. These enterprises add to the Church’s financial power while also serving internal Church needs.

As a religious nonprofit, the Church pays no taxes on its income from tithing or capital gains on investments. This allows its wealth to compound tax-free, unlike a normal corporation or individual investor.

The Church is not known for lavish spending. It spends cautiously, saves aggressively, and avoids debt. Critics and even some insiders have argued the Church hoards wealth, spending relatively little of its surplus on humanitarian aid compared to its income.

The majority of Church spending is heavily weighted toward internal operations and asset growth, rather than external humanitarian efforts. The Church does spend on charity, but it is a small percentage of its overall assets and income. A significant portion of Church funds is not spent at all, but invested through Ensign Peak Advisors to grow the Church’s long-term financial security. The goal appears to be maintaining financial self-sufficiency indefinitely, even if tithing revenue declined.

It's not dissimilar from university endowments. The Catholic Church is estimated to have trillions globally although it's held across thousands of decentralized units. The Church of Scientology has several billion. Some mega churches are very wealthy. Some nonprofits with investment arms like the Gates Foundation or Ford Foundation have massive endowments.

I would be open to discussing the value or harms in doing that but it's not right to single out the Mormon Church in my opinion and it harms people who have nothing to do with that.

[AreYouSirius]

Norman Finkelstein is not a serious commentator or scholar. He's narcissistic and he is seeking attention more than societal change or truth.

It's not about flattering or unflattering. It's just disrespectful. I wouldn't make those same comments about the Mormon Church that you made to me but I know a handful of people who have left the Mormon Church and have been badly traumatized by it and the community. All religions and ethnic groups and societies and families have their own issues, I'm not going to single anyone or any group out especially when it doesn't personally affect me.

I don't know about Mormon wealth hoarding but I certainly wouldn't expect all Mormons to do that. Even if there is plenty of of wealth hoarding in the Mormon community, they are certainly not the only ones to do that. You seem traumatized from your experience and you are taking this out on Jewish people. Maybe you should reflect on that behavior.

Don’t embarrass yourself—Norm Finkelstein is absolutely a serious and searingly articulate scholar.

The Mormon church doesn’t automatically deserve respect. It is an organization, and it is a wealth-hoarding organization that preys upon the third world and is a corporation that has some of the largest cash reserves, stock holdings, real estate, and agriculture in the world. They not only deserve critique, they deserve to be discussed annd questioned in the open.

Judaism doesn’t automatically deserve respect. Jews do. Jews are human beings and human beings deserve respect, understanding, and conversation. However the movements of Judaism, Zionism, (and for the heck of it, lemme also say Sabbatean Frankism) don’t deserve my humble hushed reverence.

You are gonna have to deal with the uncomfortable notion and everyone else’s noticing of “Jewish supremacy.”

Feigning indignation just isn’t gonna work anymore.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Norman Finkelstein is not a serious… scholar. He's narcissistic and he is seeking attention more than societal change or truth.

It's… It's just disrespectful. …You seem traumatized from your experience and you are taking this out on Jewish people.

Maybe you should reflect on that behavior.

Don’t embarrass yourself — Norm Finkelstein is absolutely a serious and searingly articulate scholar.

The Mormon church doesn’t automatically deserve respect. It is an organization, and it is a wealth-hoarding organization that preys upon the third world and is a corporation that has some of the largest cash reserves, stock holdings, real estate, and agriculture in the world. They not only deserve critique, they deserve to be discussed annd questioned in the open.

Judaism doesn’t automatically deserve respect. Jews do. Jews are human beings and human beings deserve respect, understanding, and conversation. However the movements of Judaism, Zionism, (and for the heck of it, lemme also say Sabbatean Frankism) don’t deserve my humble hushed reverence.

You are gonna have to deal with the uncomfortable notion and everyone else’s noticing of “Jewish supremacy.”

Feigning indignation just isn’t gonna work anymore.

Well said, AYS.

This CJ is a person in extremely deep denial. Shockingly deep denial.

Imagine the mind-set of someone who can argue that a highly qualified, published academic with a Ph.d. and a long resumé of teaching as a PROFESSOR is not a “serious scholar”.

Think about it: if someone can’t admit that Prof. Finkelstein is the very definition of a “serious scholar” merely because, as a ‘jew’, they don’t like some of what he’s been saying, then is such a person ever going to be able to be REALISTIC about the obvious flaws in the holocaust mass-gassing narrative?

Finkelstein is a graduate of Binghamton University and received his Ph.D. in political science from Princeton University. He has held faculty positions at Brooklyn College, Rutgers University, Hunter College, New York University, and DePaul University, where he was an assistant professor from 2001 to 2007. In 2006, the department and college committees at DePaul University voted to grant Finkelstein tenure.

Finkelstein first taught at Rutgers University as an adjunct lecturer in international relations (1977–78), then at Brooklyn College (1988–1991), Hunter College (1992–2001), New York University (1992–2001), and DePaul University (2001–2007).

Finkelstein has described himself as a "forensic" scholar who has worked to demystify what he considers pseudo-scholarly arguments.
He has written scathing academic reviews of several prominent writers and scholars who he says misrepresent facts in order to defend Israel's policies and practices. His writings have dealt with politically charged topics such as Zionism, the demographic history of Palestine, and his allegations of the existence of a "Holocaust industry" that exploits the memory of the Holocaust to further Israeli political interests.

Finkelstein's work has been praised by scholars such as Noam Chomsky, the political scientist Raul Hilberg, and historian Avi Shlaim.

Plus, how can you AYS as someone who is defending Finkelstein, be regarded as a person “taking [their trauma] out on jewish people”?
When Finkelstein very obviously IS ‘jewish’.

These two, when taken together, demonstrate denial to the level of mild psychosis.

SUMMARY: The problem here with CJ’s lack of accurate, realistic understanding is explained by psychology — NOT the archeology, chemistry and the actual historical evidence.

[Callafangers]

...Palestinians are suffering at the hands of European Zionist-supremacist (and let’s be real, white-supremacist) colonizers...

What does it take to lose one's "white card"? Does centuries of self-segregation and backstabbing suffice? Do Europeans who recognize Jewish collective behavior typically still wish to claim and defend this group as their own? Or is it a bit of an extreme overreach to suggest that Jews (who hate Europe and its people) can be thrown neatly into the bucket of "Europeans"?

Not intending to veer us too far off topic here but it has to be said, lest we risk promoting ideas that have already had far too much a platform relative to their truth or validity.

[HansHill]

...Palestinians are suffering at the hands of European Zionist-supremacist (and let’s be real, white-supremacist) colonizers...

What does it take to lose one's "white card"? Does centuries of self-segregation and backstabbing suffice? Do Europeans who recognize Jewish collective behavior typically still wish to claim and defend this group as their own? Or is it a bit of an extreme overreach to suggest that Jews (who hate Europe and its people) can be thrown neatly into the bucket of "Europeans"?

Not intending to veer us too far off topic here but it has to be said, lest we risk promoting ideas that have already had far too much a platform relative to their truth or validity.

+1

I actually missed the "White Supremacy" line initially, so i'm glad CF flagged it. Additional Questions - where exactly does this White Supremacy manifest itself? Is it localised entirely in... Palestine? Are there any White countries that are White Supremacist? I live in a White country and my government are doing everything in its power to replace the native demographic and import Indians & Africans so, this seems very tone deaf

[Nazgul]

I don't get it. How can you guys actually think this? Are you just trolling or are you serious? Are you playing word games about what the Holocaust means?

The term holocaust has become synonymous with the term "Genocide", which it is not. The term Holocaust is specific to Jews. Genocide such as the segregation of sexes to prevent reproduction or the transportation of people anywhere (ethnic cleansing) is genocide. This happened, the holocaust is emotive not factual. We should be discussing the legal term "genocide". United Nations state:
Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:
A mental element:

• The "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"

A physical element
This includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:

• Killing members of the group
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Below are the facts proving genocide. This is not the holocaust.

The Germans did kill Jewish Partisans, civilian combatants liable to summary execution.
The wailing inside the camps is enough to suspect that mental harm was caused.
The conditions in the camps were good at first but deteriorated.
Men and women were isolated.
Children were separated.