Evidence and Implementation

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Nessie
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Nessie »

Wahrheitssucher wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 10:52 am ....
Clarification for anyone who may be having difficulty comprehending the fairly obvious parallels:
1.) hysterical girls acting peculiarly in unison; breasts of a middle-aged woman allegedly being full one day then empty the next; warts and moles on a person’s body; pigs unexpectedly dying; and other physically detectable occurrences perceived as misfortunes and calamities are ALL discernible realities well within the range of what can be deemed ‘physical evidence’ of something. When there is a pre-conditioned belief + confirmation bias, these things could be — and WERE — deemed proof of satanic sorcery.
They were all cited as caused by witches casting spells or curses, which are physical impossibilities. The witch finders mistakenly claimed that warts, pig dying etc had been caused by the women accused of witchcraft, which we know to be not possible. It is the casting of spells that is the impossibility, which is a false analogy with Germans building gas chambers, which is not an impossibility.
It is the same sort of simple-minded and delusional pre-conditioned belief + confirmation bias that led people to believe a calculated deceit regarding an unevidenced 3 to 4 million disappeared jews, magically vanishing into never evidenced gas chambers and then non-existent colossal mass-graves (Treblinka) and supernatural ‘pools’ (Birkenau).
There is evidence to prove that 6-7 million Jews were arrested and sent to camps and ghettos, 1939-44. The ghettos were gradually closed down, mainly in the period 1942-3, and those people were mostly sent to the AR camps and Chemno, where they did disappear from the Nazis paper trail. There is witness and archaeological evidence to prove mass graves at the camps and most of the ashes at Birkenau were dumped into rivers, not the pools.

Revisionists who have never bothered to make themselves familiar with the evidence, fall for the Holocaust denier lies about a lack of evidence.
2.). Ensatzgruppen reports are OBVIOUSLY NOT proof of a massive mass-gassing programme.
Indeed, they are part of the evidence to prove the Nazis and some allies were prepared to mass murder Jews.
Finally, there is another parallel between the witch trials at Salem starting in 1692 and the post war trials starting after 1945.
It is this:
BOTH — because of flawed understanding and deliberately malicious, deceitful, self-motivated deceptions — posed as being about combatting, exposing, eliminating and punishing wickedness.
Yet BOTH are regarded by fair-minded, knowledgeable, reasonable, decent people as ironically wicked and evil.

What the accusers and judges did at Salem at the end of the 17th century was wicked and evil.
Anyone who doesn’t recognise that now regarding Salem would be regarded as a superstitious simpleton or someone with wicked motivations.

I predict the day is not so far off when the same will apply to the show-trials of National Socialists who were — like at Salem — also accused of monstrous but never-properly evidenced crimes.
It is deluded to claim that there is a lack of evidence of the mass killings, of 5-6 million arrested Jews, by gassings, shootings and in the camps and ghettos. It is a delusion used to deflect from the genuine lack of evidence of 6-7 million arrested Jews, still alive in camps and ghettos in 1944-5.

As for the show trial claim, most of the SS death camp staff were tried by German prosecutors, in West, East and unified Germany. The SS accused did not deny mass killings happened, and still those prosecutors gathered evidence from witnesses and conducted site visits to the camps in Poland. The trials, run by the Germans and Western Allies, all used Nazi documents and the site examinations by the Poles, as corroborative evidence.

The attempted analogy with witch trials fails on every level.
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Nazgul
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Nazgul »

Nessie wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:41 pm There is evidence to prove that 6-7 million Jews were arrested and sent to camps and ghettos, 1939-44. The ghettos were gradually closed down, mainly in the period 1942-3, and those people were mostly sent to the AR camps and Chemno, where they did disappear from the Nazis paper trail.
You continue to repeat non stop. The Jews were put on trains whose final destination post war were determined to be AR camps on the basis of very flimsy evidence. Those Jews disembarked in all probability at the site of a multitude of labour camps for jews en route. It is true that the organizations responsible for labour the Schmelt and Todt organizations had all of their paper work missing at wars end. It is suspected the Soviets were responsible for this. To fill unknown gaps of knowledge of the times with "murder by gassing" is more than asinine.

This poster has little interest in the real truth which may dignify the real suffering and hardship brave people experienced.
Omnia transibunt. Oblivione erimus imperia surgent et cadunt, sed gloria Romae aeterna est!
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Wahrheitssucher
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Wahrheitssucher »

Both at Salem + world-wide in 1692 and Nuremberg + world-wide in 1945, we have a situation where judges, accusers, accused and gullible public believed in phantoms, superstition and unempirical nonsense.

Whether it is ‘wicked witches’ or ‘wicked Nazis’ the parallels are so obvious that only simpletons and deluded individuals or deliberate deceivers would fail to see them.

If ConfusedJew should read this I ask you to consider this and ask yourself whether he wants to be a co-believer with people who deny such obvious reality.

Here is another parallel: in both cases those accused (whether of witchcraft and consorting with the Devil or of participation in mass-gassings) sought to escape a death penalty by admitting to and conceding the REALITY of the false charges.
The reason: to deny the basis of the charge guaranteed a verdict of guilt and a resultant death penalty.

Those apparently ‘corroborating’ confessions at Salem — at least to most sane, intelligent people — does not provide credible EVIDENCE of there actually being witches with supernatural powers. :roll:

And those admissions of there being witches and of the accused’s participation in witchcraft DEFINITELY DID save accused people from death on the gallows.
Whereas those who denied their guilt of witchery were executed.

E.g. Susannah Martin, a 70 year old widow accused of witchery.
She laughed in court when the ‘afflicted’ girls went into hysterical fits at her denials.
When asked why she laughed, replied: “Well I may, at such folly.”
The Magistrate replied: “Is this folly? The hurt of persons?”
Susannah Martin said: “I never hurt man or woman or child.”
One of the girls posing as afflicted exclaimed: “She hath hurt me a great many times and pulls me down.”

Susannah Martin was also forced to submit to physical examination twice in order to find evidence of a "witch's tit or physical protuberance which might give milk to a familiar." No such deformity was found on Susannah Martin, but it was noted that "in the morning her nipples were found to be full as if the milk would come," but by late afternoon, "her breasts were slack, as if milk had already been given to someone or something." This was thought to be an indication that she had been visited by a witch's familiar, and was considered clear evidence of guilt. And this was when she was nearing 71 years old!
For denying her guilt and for laughing at the ridiculous behaviour of the girls posing as ‘afflicted’ and the gullibility of the court and judges, she was described as “one of the most impudent, scurrilous, wicked creatures of this world”.
CONCLUSION: Gullible dupes do not like their naivety and stupidity being shown to them and resort to vengeful denunciation of those who show it to them.

For any possibly dimwitted persons who may be reading, this about Susannah Martin’s breasts was ‘physical’ evidence. That we now know it was not credible does not detract from that. Obviously. :roll:

Here is another example that has parallels to Third Reich admissions of ‘mass-gassings’.
It is the case of an accused witch named Martha Carrier.
Martha responded with a plea of “not guilty,” and boldly asserted that those who accused her had lied. She was bound in chains and taken to jail to await trial while more evidence could be found.
Martha’s two oldest sons, Andrew and Richard, ages 18 and 15 respectively, and her seven-year-old daughter, Sarah, were also put in jail as suspected witches.
Under intense pressure, little Sarah confessed that she was a witch, and that it was her mother who made her a witch. Her sons Andrew and Richard were “tied neck to heel until the blood was ready to come out of their noses,” before they confessed. Under the persuasive magistrates, the children told the examiners about journeys, meetings and “mischiefs by them performed, and were very credible in what they said.”
How anyone can not see that obvious parallel with coerced admissions and “confessions” of accused in both cases is a mystery.
As far as I can see, only an extremely unintelligent person would argue that coerced testimony in either case (whether witchery or nazi genocide of millions in gas chambers) is credible ‘evidence’ and even ‘proof’ of guilt.

Regarding ‘phantom’ EVIDENCE, here is a list of phantom ‘extermination camps’ which were at one time falsely accused of being places of planned genocide of jews using non+existent, phantom gas-chambers.

Bergen-Belsen
Buchenwald
Dachau
Flossenbürg
Gross-Rosen
Kosów Podlaski
Lviv
Mogilev
Nordhausen
Pinsk
Trawniki
Wolzek.
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Wahrheitssucher
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Wahrheitssucher »

Nazgul wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:07 pm
Nessie wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:41 pm There is evidence to prove that 6-7 million Jews were arrested and sent to camps and ghettos, 1939-44. The ghettos were gradually closed down, mainly in the period 1942-3, and those people were mostly sent to the AR camps and Chemno, where they did disappear from the Nazis paper trail.
You continue to repeat non stop. The Jews were put on trains whose final destination post war were determined to be AR camps on the basis of very flimsy evidence. Those Jews disembarked in all probability at the site of a multitude of labour camps for jews en route. It is true that the organizations responsible for labour the Schmelt and Todt organizations had all of their paper work missing at wars end. It is suspected the Soviets were responsible for this. To fill unknown gaps of knowledge of the times with "murder by gassing" is more than asinine.

This poster has little interest in the real truth which may dignify the real suffering and hardship brave people experienced.
Well said!
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Nessie
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Nessie »

Nazgul wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:07 pm
Nessie wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:41 pm There is evidence to prove that 6-7 million Jews were arrested and sent to camps and ghettos, 1939-44. The ghettos were gradually closed down, mainly in the period 1942-3, and those people were mostly sent to the AR camps and Chemno, where they did disappear from the Nazis paper trail.
You continue to repeat non stop. The Jews were put on trains whose final destination post war were determined to be AR camps on the basis of very flimsy evidence.
That is a lie. There is strong corroborating evidence of transports to the AR camps from multiple eyewitnesses, documents and circumstantial evidence.
Those Jews disembarked in all probability at the site of a multitude of labour camps for jews en route. It is true that the organizations responsible for labour the Schmelt and Todt organizations had all of their paper work missing at wars end. It is suspected the Soviets were responsible for this. To fill unknown gaps of knowledge of the times with "murder by gassing" is more than asinine.

This poster has little interest in the real truth which may dignify the real suffering and hardship brave people experienced.
It is you who repeatedly touts an unevidenced claim, showing no interest in finding out the truth.
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Nessie
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Nessie »

Wahrheitssucher wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:52 pm Both at Salem + world-wide in 1692 and Nuremberg + world-wide in 1945, we have a situation where judges, accusers, accused and gullible public believed in phantoms, superstition and unempirical nonsense.
False, there is ample evidence to prove mass killings.
Whether it is ‘wicked witches’ or ‘wicked Nazis’ the parallels are so obvious that only simpletons and deluded individuals or deliberate deceivers would fail to see them.

If ConfusedJew should read this I ask you to consider this and ask yourself whether he wants to be a co-believer with people who deny such obvious reality.

Here is another parallel: in both cases those accused (whether of witchcraft and consorting with the Devil or of participation in mass-gassings) sought to escape a death penalty by admitting to and conceding the REALITY of the false charges.
The reason: to deny the basis of the charge guaranteed a verdict of guilt and a resultant death penalty.
False, there was no death penalty in West and then unified Germany, where the majority of death camp staff were tried.
Those apparently ‘corroborating’ confessions at Salem — at least to most sane, intelligent people — does not provide credible EVIDENCE of there actually being witches with supernatural powers. :roll:

And those admissions of there being witches and of the accused’s participation in witchcraft DEFINITELY DID save accused people from death on the gallows.
Whereas those who denied their guilt of witchery were executed.

E.g. Susannah Martin, a 70 year old widow accused of witchery.
She laughed in court when the ‘afflicted’ girls went into hysterical fits at her denials.
When asked why she laughed, replied: “Well I may, at such folly.”
The Magistrate replied: “Is this folly? The hurt of persons?”
Susannah Martin said: “I never hurt man or woman or child.”
One of the girls posing as afflicted exclaimed: “She hath hurt me a great many times and pulls me down.”

Susannah Martin was also forced to submit to physical examination twice in order to find evidence of a "witch's tit or physical protuberance which might give milk to a familiar." No such deformity was found on Susannah Martin, but it was noted that "in the morning her nipples were found to be full as if the milk would come," but by late afternoon, "her breasts were slack, as if milk had already been given to someone or something." This was thought to be an indication that she had been visited by a witch's familiar, and was considered clear evidence of guilt. And this was when she was nearing 71 years old!
For denying her guilt and for laughing at the ridiculous behaviour of the girls posing as ‘afflicted’ and the gullibility of the court and judges, she was described as “one of the most impudent, scurrilous, wicked creatures of this world”.
CONCLUSION: Gullible dupes do not like their naivety and stupidity being shown to them and resort to vengeful denunciation of those who show it to them.

For any possibly dimwitted persons who may be reading, this about Susannah Martin’s breasts was ‘physical’ evidence. That we now know it was not credible does not detract from that. Obviously. :roll:

Here is another example that has parallels to Third Reich admissions of ‘mass-gassings’.
It is the case of an accused witch named Martha Carrier.
Martha responded with a plea of “not guilty,” and boldly asserted that those who accused her had lied. She was bound in chains and taken to jail to await trial while more evidence could be found.
Martha’s two oldest sons, Andrew and Richard, ages 18 and 15 respectively, and her seven-year-old daughter, Sarah, were also put in jail as suspected witches.
Under intense pressure, little Sarah confessed that she was a witch, and that it was her mother who made her a witch. Her sons Andrew and Richard were “tied neck to heel until the blood was ready to come out of their noses,” before they confessed. Under the persuasive magistrates, the children told the examiners about journeys, meetings and “mischiefs by them performed, and were very credible in what they said.”
How anyone can not see that obvious parallel with coerced admissions and “confessions” of accused in both cases is a mystery.
As far as I can see, only an extremely unintelligent person would argue that coerced testimony in either case (whether witchery or nazi genocide of millions in gas chambers) is credible ‘evidence’ and even ‘proof’ of guilt.
The witches were accused of physical impossibilities, using poor sources of evidence and a lot of coercion.

The Nazis were accused of physical possibilities, using far higher standards of evidence and in many cases, no coercion.
Regarding ‘phantom’ EVIDENCE, here is a list of phantom ‘extermination camps’ which were at one time falsely accused of being places of planned genocide of jews using non+existent, phantom gas-chambers.

Bergen-Belsen
Buchenwald
Dachau
Flossenbürg
Gross-Rosen
Kosów Podlaski
Lviv
Mogilev
Nordhausen
Pinsk
Trawniki
Wolzek.
Listing examples of investigations that ruled out allegations of mass murder and exonerated the SS camp staff, is not a convincing way of evidencing those people were being fitted up and accused of crimes they did not commit.
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Wetzelrad
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Wetzelrad »

Allow me to respond to this post since Archie did not.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm The electric floor claim was first reported in the New York Times in 1942 and quoted sources from the Polish government-in-exile [...]
This is a great reason not to trust other wartime claims from the Poles, like those about gas chambers!

But also you are wrong about the time. Before the NYT reported it on November 26, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency had already reported it on November 25.
http://pdfs.jta.org/1942/1942-11-25_272.pdf

Electrocution had also been reported in a Ukrainian newspaper Ideya i Chyn in October. And even further back, it was reported in some form in Polish in April, though I don't know the details.
https://archive.org/details/Klukowski19 ... 4/mode/1up

This is another case of your AI giving bad information because it's making declarations based only on cursory web searches.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm [...] but it was not corroborated by later confessions [...]
Wrong again. The electric floor claim came first from Schwarzbart, then Karski. Both claimed to be witnesses, not confessors. Later electrocution claims came from Silberstein, Folkmann, and other sources. The press continued to report electrocution throughout the war. After the war the electric floor story was read into the record at Nuremberg. More sources arose later still.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm [...] or investigation of the camp infrastructure.
Since the infrastructure for homicidal gassings has not been found, I have to say that gas chambers and electrocution chambers are alike in this respect.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pmIt was discarded by historians.
And yet it was not discarded by the courts when people's lives were on the line.

Plus I question how true this is. Historian Yitzak Arad included five mentions of electrocution in his book, with no hint on his part that he disbelieved in it.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pmThe claim may have originated from a misunderstanding of the high-voltage fences used for perimeter security.
Wrong. The claim bears no similarity to a description of an electric fence. It bears more similarity to a gassing story if anything. Read: "The victims are ordered to strip naked--to have a bath, ostensibly--and are then led to a barrack with a metal plate for floor. The door is then locked, electric current passes through the victims and their death is almost instantaneous."
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm Some of the WW1 claims were pure propaganda and deliberate fictions created by British intelligence. However, these claims regarding WW2 often originated from confused refugee reports, trauma, rumor, or bad translation.
How do you know that WWI claims were created by British intelligence, and how does that understanding compare for example to internal communications by British intelligence during WWII? The chairman of the JIC Victor Cavendish-Bentinck wrote: "As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe there is any evidence that this has been done. There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up in PWE rumours without believing that they had any foundation." He even went on to liken gassings to the WWI propaganda you acknowledge.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pmIf you want, we could do a deeper dive on that section, but I think it's generally pretty normal for there to be false and inaccurate reports during the fog of war.
No one is going to dispute that news reports are sometimes inaccurate. The issue is that there is a consistent pattern here where people opposed to the Nazis made false accusations of murder by electrocution, steam, vacuum, gas chambers, and other inventions. These were often explicit claims made by named witnesses, not only vague unattributed rumors. And these claims were made in tandem with national propaganda efforts which often center atrocity stories.

When this is done to Jews it's not called "inaccurate reports", it's called blood libel.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm Temporal proximity is a foundational heuristic in historiography that sources closer in time to an event tend to be more reliable. However, this is only a tendency and not very applicable to the Holocaust. That principle most strongly applies to very long time gaps between history which is more relevant to ancient history. Today, early evidence is often clarified as historical consensus firms.
You offer no justification for what you are saying here. Anyone in the criminal justice system today would agree that early recollections are more accurate than those months removed.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm This seems to be common sense to me but I would take any macro statistics from eyewitnesses with a huge grain of salt since they obviously didn't see the whole thing. This is accepted as a known issue in legal and historical testimony across all domains.

Credible historians like Raul Hilberg disregarded numerical estimates from testimonies in favor of contemporary Nazi records, forensic data, and transportation logs when reconstructing death tolls.
None of this disputes what Archie said. Obviously Vrba did not witness 1.75 million deaths, but he claimed to have. This is not plausibly consistent with an innocent mistake. It is consistent with lying to vilify an enemy. Surely you agree.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pmYou say that all witnesses claim to have seen flaming chimneys which isn't true as most don't mention that.
Wrong. Archie wrote that "countless" witnesses made this claim. The new Holocaust Encyclopedia lists over 47 of them.
https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/absur ... mneys/290/

You've misread him referring to all of those witnesses to instead be him referring to all witnesses in general. His point stands. This is a large group of eyewitnesses who all parroted the same false claim. That's a lot of corroboration for something that didn't happen.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pmReports of flaming chimneys is interpreted by historians to be a misperception or optical illusion of flaring gases or confusion with burning pits.
Which historians are these? I think this is more false info made up by your AI. To me, Van Pelt is the most respectable PC historian in recent years, but he completely botches the flaming chimney issue in his book. He cites Henryk Tauber's testimony about "fire emerging from the chimney" with no critical comment, and he praises David Olere repeatedly, featuring his drawing of a flaming chimney on page 178.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pmI'm not sure what you mean when you say that those claims were corroborated. They might have been mistakes that showed up a few times, but that doesn't mean that the whole testimonies should be thrown out.
Personally I don't think we have to throw whole testimonies out. It's enough just to recognize that their most extraordinary and unsupported claim -- that of mass homicidal gassings -- is discredited when the witness is shown to have lied in a way that demonstrates an anti-German bias.

So in total you made at least 5 obvious errors in this one post.
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ConfusedJew
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by ConfusedJew »

Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:31 am Allow me to respond to this post since Archie did not.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm The electric floor claim was first reported in the New York Times in 1942 and quoted sources from the Polish government-in-exile [...]
This is a great reason not to trust other wartime claims from the Poles, like those about gas chambers!

But also you are wrong about the time. Before the NYT reported it on November 26, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency had already reported it on November 25.
http://pdfs.jta.org/1942/1942-11-25_272.pdf

Electrocution had also been reported in a Ukrainian newspaper Ideya i Chyn in October. And even further back, it was reported in some form in Polish in April, though I don't know the details.
https://archive.org/details/Klukowski19 ... 4/mode/1up

This is another case of your AI giving bad information because it's making declarations based only on cursory web searches.
ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 7:26 pm [...] but it was not corroborated by later confessions [...]
Wrong again. The electric floor claim came first from Schwarzbart, then Karski. Both claimed to be witnesses, not confessors. Later electrocution claims came from Silberstein, Folkmann, and other sources. The press continued to report electrocution throughout the war. After the war the electric floor story was read into the record at Nuremberg. More sources arose later still.
You aren't actually right about this, but even if you were, I'm not sure why it would matter.

JTA was a wire service that typically distributed its news to Jewish and other affiliated outlets earlier in the day and sometimes the night before printed publication.

The NYT article appeared in the November 25, 1942 morning edition, page 10, and was attributed to a “Special Cable” — meaning it was filed the previous day (November 24) from Washington.

They were published on the same day, but the NYT report likely appeared in print first, as it was part of the November 25 morning edition, while the JTA was a wire bulletin that likely circulated around the same time or shortly after. Both were reporting on the same November 24 press event.

https://www.academia.edu/31591905/New_Y ... 5_Nov_1942

The Polish government-in-exile memo reached the US November 23rd or 24th. Rabbi Stephen Wise held the press conference on the 24th and then it was broadcast more widely after the conference.

The Polish memo from reached Wise after originating from Polish resistance and then traveling to

Polish government-in-exile ➝
British & U.S. governments ➝
State Department ➝
Rabbi Wise (via a formal communication authorizing him to disclose the info publicly).

Information for the memo was gathered from Information was gathered from escapees, railway workers, local witnesses, and members of the Oneg Shabbat group (led by historian Emanuel Ringelblum in the Warsaw Ghetto). Reports detailed activities at Bełżec, Sobibór, and Treblinka, including numbers of deaths and possible methods of extermination.

Why does it matter to you that wartime intelligence, passed through multiple nodes, had some factual inaccuracies?
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ConfusedJew
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by ConfusedJew »

Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:31 am
No one is going to dispute that news reports are sometimes inaccurate. The issue is that there is a consistent pattern here where people opposed to the Nazis made false accusations of murder by electrocution, steam, vacuum, gas chambers, and other inventions. These were often explicit claims made by named witnesses, not only vague unattributed rumors. And these claims were made in tandem with national propaganda efforts which often center atrocity stories.

When this is done to Jews it's not called "inaccurate reports", it's called blood libel.
Some governments weaponize 'blood libel' during times of war to mobilize their base and channel anger towards their enemies. In the case of the Nazis, even if it were intentionally manufactured or even exaggerated, it's not exactly 'blood libel' since they without question killed a ton of innocent Jews.

Though your point has some slight fairness to it. During wartime acts, is it OK to match the evilness or even surpass the evilness of your adversary in order to win? I don't have any answer to that question.

Why this is different from the Jewish blood libel is that the Jews were not at war with their neighbors and blood libel was still used to persecute and kill them because they were different and inconvenient. What is clearly immoral during relative times of peace might become a moral imperative during a serious threat as the lesser evil. It's really hard to say when and how much though.
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ConfusedJew
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by ConfusedJew »

Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:31 am
You offer no justification for what you are saying here. Anyone in the criminal justice system today would agree that early recollections are more accurate than those months removed.
This is sort of true in the criminal justice system but things are very different for war. Criminal trials involve specific details about singular events while war involves chaotic and imprecise details about many events. Also, you still have to do the investigation in a criminal trial to corroborate evidence and filter out the false or mistaken testimony just like in any historical account.
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ConfusedJew
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by ConfusedJew »

Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:31 am
Personally I don't think we have to throw whole testimonies out. It's enough just to recognize that their most extraordinary and unsupported claim -- that of mass homicidal gassings -- is discredited when the witness is shown to have lied in a way that demonstrates an anti-German bias.

So in total you made at least 5 obvious errors in this one post.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. It was not just a single flawed testimony that confirmed the existence of gassings.

There is extensive documentation showing that dozens of Nazi perpetrators, collaborators, and bystanders testified—either during trials or in postwar interrogations—that gas chambers were used to kill Jews during the Holocaust. The total number was in the hundreds. The vast majority of these did not involve any coercion, especially in the West, although the Soviets were more hostile towards witnesses. The testimonies are further supported by Nazi documents, photographs, surviving architecture, and independent accounts, forming a robust body of evidence.

Some of the high profile Nazi testimonies that didn't involve coercion include:

Rudolf Höss (Auschwitz): gave extensive written and oral testimony before his trial in Poland, including affidavits in Nuremberg. Although captured and interrogated, he gave consistent and detailed accounts in multiple venues.

Erich Bauer (Sobibor): independently described the gas chambers and his role in them.

Perry Broad, SS man at Auschwitz, wrote a report before being charged.

Hans Stark, SS officer, testified to inserting Zyklon B into gas chambers.

Wilhelm Boger, a Gestapo officer, confirmed many aspects of mass killing procedures under questioning.
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Nessie
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Nessie »

Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:31 am ...

Personally I don't think we have to throw whole testimonies out.
You throw out 100% of the eyewitness evidence from those who worked inside the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas.
It's enough just to recognize that their most extraordinary and unsupported claim -- that of mass homicidal gassings --
The eyewitnesses are variously corroborated by documentary, physical, forensic, archaeological and circumstantial evidence. You know about that evidence, so you have been caught lying that they are not supported.
... is discredited when the witness is shown to have lied in a way that demonstrates an anti-German bias.
The largest single group of eyewitnesses were German. You have failed to prove the witnesses lied and that those places were used for a purpose other than gassings.
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Wahrheitssucher
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Wahrheitssucher »

ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 4:58 am
Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 8:31 amNo one is going to dispute that news reports are sometimes inaccurate. The issue is that there is a consistent pattern here where people opposed to the Nazis made false accusations of murder by electrocution, steam, vacuum, gas chambers, and other inventions. These were often explicit claims made by named witnesses, not only vague unattributed rumors. And these claims were made in tandem with national propaganda efforts which often center atrocity stories.

When this is done to Jews it's not called "inaccurate reports", it's called blood libel.
…Why this is different from the Jewish blood libel is that the Jews were not at war with their neighbours
You maybe ought to be more open to at least receiving an alternative understanding. Otherwise you come across as an arrogantly ill-informed ignoramus.
You don’t have to accept and believe an alternative understanding, but if you aren’t at least open to the idea of receiving one, it makes attempting a dialogue with you a bit pointless.

You claim “the Jews were not at war with their neighbours”. Well “the Jews” weren’t. But cliques of jews operating internationally definitely were. Numerous evidence of that has been posted here recently. Maybe you didn’t notice it. Or maybe your current belief-system made you disregard it.
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ConfusedJew
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by ConfusedJew »

Wahrheitssucher wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:57 pm You claim “the Jews were not at war with their neighbours”. Well “the Jews” weren’t. But cliques of jews operating internationally definitely were. Numerous evidence of that has been posted here recently. Maybe you didn’t notice it. Or maybe your current belief-system made you disregard it.
Who are these "cliques of Jews operating internationally"? Can you provided specifics of who these people were and what they did?

Hitler talked about "international financial Jewry" but I have not seen any specifics.
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Wahrheitssucher
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Re: Evidence and Implementation

Post by Wahrheitssucher »

ConfusedJew wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 3:30 pm
Wahrheitssucher wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:57 pm You claim “the Jews were not at war with their neighbours”. Well “the Jews” weren’t. But cliques of jews operating internationally definitely were. Numerous evidence of that has been posted here recently. Maybe you didn’t notice it. Or maybe your current belief-system made you disregard it.
Who are these "cliques of Jews operating internationally"? Can you provided specifics of who these people were and what they did?

Hitler talked about "international financial Jewry" but I have not seen any specifics.
:roll:

If you were here to GENUINELY understand an alternative viewpoint your question SHOULD have been: “what numerous evidence of that has been posted here recently?”

But you aren’t here to learn, are you.
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