On the Use of Sonderkommando For TB Poles

[fireofice]

Picking up from this recent thread:

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=478

Bombsaway highlights these phrases from the letter:

I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
...
Considering the urgency of this project I ask for your approval in principle as soon as possible. This would enable us to take the preparations with all necessary precautions now to get the action against the Poles suffering from open tuberculosis under way, while the action against the Jews is in its closing stages.

Well he never said where the Sonderkommando were to come from. He's probably talking about taking some Sonderkommando from Auschwitz to carry out this action against the Poles. According to the revisionist account, Auschwitz was already dealing with quite a lot of dead bodies in the camp by May 1942, which would increase in the months to come. See here:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/docum ... books/381/

According to the revisionist account, dealing with dead bodies was one of the jobs of the Sonderkommando.

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/conce ... mando/844/

So yeah, he probably is referring to the use of Sonderkommando to deal with the bodies of dead Poles that they would kill. I don't see how this proves the existence of an extermination program against Jews though.

The 100,000 "euthanized" Jews lines up perfectly in terms of quantity and timeline with the deportation of 100,000 unfit for work Jews from Greiser's district, their disappearance after heading in a westward direction which transport records make clear was very near to Chelmno, the Just Memo which speaks of 97,000 killed at Chelmno. This is what convergence of evidence means btw. The Just memo is powerful by itself, but is corroborated in these different ways.

The document is fake though. Lots of contradictions between it and the equally fake Becker letter, as well as contradicting itself. And it doesn't "corroborate" something that doesn't prove the extermination program anyway.

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/legal ... mpany/306/

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/witne ... er-august/

[Nessie]

The euthanising of prisoners, and the disabled, proves that the Nazis would kill those they deemed unfit, unnecessary, the useless eaters. That is circumstantial evidence that they would also kill Jews, who they saw as an enemy, in the same group as partisans and Communists.

It would seem odd for the Nazis to kill the disabled, prisoners who could not work, partisans and Communists, but not Jews.

[bombsaway]

Well he never said where the Sonderkommando were to come from.

Look at this paragraph:

The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.

Their use has to do with whatever happened to the 100,000 Jews in his district.

[bombsaway]

He's probably talking about taking some Sonderkommando from Auschwitz to carry out this action against the Poles. According to the revisionist account, Auschwitz was already dealing with quite a lot of dead bodies in the camp by May 1942, which would increase in the months to come.

German SS were also called Sonderkommando, eg SK Lange http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... erman.html

which did Euthanasia in 40/41 and then was moved to Chelmno (Kulmhof in German documents)

[bombsaway]

That connection is explicit here from Greiser

The Higher SS and Police Leader Posen, 3 May 1942
on the Staff of the Reich Governor
Posen in Wehrkreis XXI

Secret

To the Reichsführer SS, Personal Staff,
attention: SS-Obersturmbannführer Brandt
Berlin SW 11
Prinz Albrecht Street 8

Subject: Poles afflicted with TB.

Dear Comrade Brandt!

May I ask that you submit the following matter to the Reichsfuehrer SS:

The Gauleiter will shortly ask the Reichsfuehrer SS for permission to have those Poles who have been shown to be afflicted with open TB sent to the Kommando Lange for special treatment. This request is motivated by the Gauleiter's serious and understandable concern for the physical welfare of the German people here. For there are about 20-25000 poles in the Gau who, according to the doctor's opinion, are afflicted with incurable TB and who will not be fit for assignment to work again. In view of the fact that these Poles live very closely crowded together, particularly in the cities, and that, on the other hand, they come in constant contact with the German population, they constitute a tremendous source of contagion which must be checked as quickly as possible. If this is not done the infection of numerous large numbers of Germans and most serious physical damage to the health of the German population must be expected. Today already the number of cases of Germans, among them also members of the Police Force, becoming infected by Poles and coming down with TB is increasing.

Under these circumstances, I consider the solution desired by the Gauleiter as the only possible one, and ask that you inform The Reichsfuehrer SS accordingly.

With comradely greetings and Heil Hitler
[signature]

This whole matter is obvious really and an exemplar for the way revisionists selectively read documents. When he mentions Sonderkommando, Greiser is referring to SK Lange ( " the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando" ). That work was killing, which is attested to in other sources.

[fireofice]

OK sure, he is referring to the unit of the SS, fine. And this unit has dealt with engaging in euthanasia before, also fine. This is just restating the argument for Aktion Reinhardt being an extermination camp because euthanasia people were used for it. Not a new argument. If an SS unit was in the area that can do euthanasia and other forms of killing, that doesn't necessarily mean they were killing 100,000 Jews. Even if they were engaging in "euthanasia activities" in the area, it still doesn't follow they were killing all of the Jews. The SS also did lots of things involving things that don't involve killing. Maybe they were recently engaging in killing, maybe not. All we know is that they are "used to" work like that. We don't know any more and can't make an argument out of this. Totally unconvincing and addressed further here:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/event/euthanasia/502/

[bombsaway]

You should reread the letter again

Reich Govenor of the Reichsgau Wartheland Posen, 1 May 1942

Secret State Affair

Personal

To the Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, Führer-Headquarters.

Reichsführer!

The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.

There are about 230,000 people of Polish nationality in my district, who were diagnosed to suffer from TB. The number of persons infected with open tuberculosis is estimated at about 35,000. This fact has led in an increasing frightening measure to the infection of Germans, who came to the Warthegau perfectly healthy. In particular reports are received with our increasing effect of German children in danger "infection. A considerable number of well known leading men especially of the police, have been infected lately and are not available for the war effort because of the necessary medical treatment. The ever increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the deputy of the Reich Leader for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) Comrade Professor Dr. Blome as well as by the Leader of your X-rays battalion SS Standartenfuehrer Professor Dr. Hohlfelder.

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by public health officer.

Considering the urgency of this project I ask for your approval in principle as soon as possible. This would enable us to take the preparations with all necessary precautions now to get the action against the Poles suffering from open tuberculosis under way, while the action against the Jews is in its closing stages.

Heil Hitler!
[signature]

Greiser is saying that Lange (the SK in question) is giving 100,000 Jews Special Treatment and also that the same special treatment should be used on non-employable TB inflicted poles ("use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose")

Then later documents make clear that Greiser's proposal is about getting a large scale euthanasia action going. That is the "special treatment" repeatedly brought up in this correspondence.

[fireofice]

You should reread the letter again

Reich Govenor of the Reichsgau Wartheland Posen, 1 May 1942

Secret State Affair

Personal

To the Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, Führer-Headquarters.

Reichsführer!

The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.

There are about 230,000 people of Polish nationality in my district, who were diagnosed to suffer from TB. The number of persons infected with open tuberculosis is estimated at about 35,000. This fact has led in an increasing frightening measure to the infection of Germans, who came to the Warthegau perfectly healthy. In particular reports are received with our increasing effect of German children in danger "infection. A considerable number of well known leading men especially of the police, have been infected lately and are not available for the war effort because of the necessary medical treatment. The ever increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the deputy of the Reich Leader for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) Comrade Professor Dr. Blome as well as by the Leader of your X-rays battalion SS Standartenfuehrer Professor Dr. Hohlfelder.

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by public health officer.

Considering the urgency of this project I ask for your approval in principle as soon as possible. This would enable us to take the preparations with all necessary precautions now to get the action against the Poles suffering from open tuberculosis under way, while the action against the Jews is in its closing stages.

Heil Hitler!
[signature]

Greiser is saying that Lange (the SK in question) is giving 100,000 Jews Special Treatment and also that the same special treatment should be used on non-employable TB inflicted poles ("use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose")

Then later documents make clear that Greiser's proposal is about getting a large scale euthanasia action going. That is the "special treatment" repeatedly brought up in this correspondence.

The term "special treatment" only shows up in this letter in regards to the Jews, not Poles. We can't therefore say it's the same "special treatment" which shows up in later letters.

[bombsaway]

The term "special treatment" only shows up in this letter in regards to the Jews, not Poles. We can't therefore say it's the same "special treatment" which shows up in later letters.

well let's just look at the first letter for now, when Greiser is talking about his proposal about the Poles with incurable TB, what is he referring to here, when he says "such an action"

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by public health officer.

[fireofice]

The term "special treatment" only shows up in this letter in regards to the Jews, not Poles. We can't therefore say it's the same "special treatment" which shows up in later letters.

well let's just look at the first letter for now, when Greiser is talking about his proposal about the Poles with incurable TB, what is he referring to here, when he says "such an action"

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by public health officer.

Even if he is talking about killing here, this says nothing about the 100,000 Jews. In fact, Jews are not mentioned anywhere in this passage. So what are you talking about???

[bombsaway]

The term "special treatment" only shows up in this letter in regards to the Jews, not Poles. We can't therefore say it's the same "special treatment" which shows up in later letters.

well let's just look at the first letter for now, when Greiser is talking about his proposal about the Poles with incurable TB, what is he referring to here, when he says "such an action"

Though in Germany proper it is not possible to take appropriate draconic steps against this public plague. I think I could take the responsibility for my suggestion to have cases of open TB exterminated among the Polish race here in Warthegau. Of course only a Pole should be handed over to such an action, who is not only suffering open tuberculosis, but whose incurability is proved and certified by public health officer.

Even if he is talking about killing here, this says nothing about the 100,000 Jews. In fact, Jews are not mentioned anywhere in this passage. So what are you talking about???

the clause which links the special treatment of 100,000 Jews to the Euthanasia action you agree he was proposing is this:

"use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose"

[fireofice]

the clause which links the special treatment of 100,000 Jews to the Euthanasia action you agree he was proposing is this:

"use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose"

That doesn't connect anything. You're telling me the SS had experience with killing??? No way!!!

[bombsaway]

the clause which links the special treatment of 100,000 Jews to the Euthanasia action you agree he was proposing is this:

"use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose"

That doesn't connect anything. You're telling me the SS had experience with killing??? No way!!!

Yes the Jews were killed, just like he is proposing to do to "incurable" Poles. After their work with the Jews is done, Greiser is saying, they can commence euthanization of the afflicted Poles.

Why do you think he brings up the Jews and the SK which has been giving them "special treatment"? Just speculate a bit and we'll see if it makes sense.

[fireofice]

Yes the Jews were killed, just like he is proposing to do to "incurable" Poles. After their work with the Jews is done, Greiser is saying, they can commence euthanization of the afflicted Poles.

Why do you think he brings up the Jews and the SK which has been giving them "special treatment"? Just speculate a bit and we'll see if it makes sense.

Or, hear me out, they had experience with killing all kinds of people. There was a war going on and many different people got killed and the SS were, in theory at least, supposed to be an elite unit that did a good job at killing all different kinds of people in war, Jew or not. This has nothing to do with the "holocaust". And nothing in the passage you brought up connects it to any "Jewish holocaust".

[Nessie]

Anyone who thinks this was not an action to kill Jews, should track those Jews and prove they were still alive months later. Of course, no one will do that, because just like many of the Jews sent to the AR camps and Chelmno, they disappear.