"Systemic" issues with gas chamber investigations.

[Nessie]

Archie, referring to investigations into claims about the use of gas chambers, such as at Dachau said,

If I may borrow the terminology of the modern left, there are "systemic" issues with these investigations that you are completely ignoring.

Hopefully he will explain those issues so we can all learn.

[Archie]

I don't see how I can explain this to somebody who's so clueless he thinks Poland was independent of the Soviet Union after the war and thinks minor countries in Europe would have had an incentive to debunk the Holocaust.

Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

[Nessie]

I don't see how I can explain this to somebody who's so clueless he thinks Poland was independent of the Soviet Union after the war and thinks minor countries in Europe would have had an incentive to debunk the Holocaust.
Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

It is your claim there were systemic issues, so spell them out. Stop procrastinating.

[Nessie]

There are no systemic issues with the way the Holocaust has been investigated by historians and by those responsible for the war crimes trials.

[Archie]

Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

[Nessie]

Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

It is up to you to present your case that there were/are systemic issues with the investigators. As for who was doing the investigations, the answer is there have been multiple organisations set up, whose task it is to investigate crimes committed during WWII. You could start with the Central Office of the Land Judicial Authorities for Investigation of National Socialist Crimes in Ludwigsberg.

https://zentrale-stelle-ludwigsburg.jus ... stigations

"The task of the Central Office is to collect, to scrutinise and to evaluate the entire accessible material on Nazi crimes in Germany and abroad. Its main aim is searching for acts limited in space, time and committed by a certain group of culprits and to determine which persons involved into these atrocities can be still prosecuted. As soon as the Central Office has found the group of the perpetrators who are to be prosecuted, the preliminary investigations are closed and the files are transferred to this prosecutor’s office in charge. The latter is obliged to process the whole case. Here, the Central Office renders investigative assistance further on. This method enables the public prosecutor’s offices not only to conduct investigations in every single case (as it had been until 1958) but from that point onward, to handle the case, divided into component complexes, profoundly and systematically as a whole."

[HansHill]

I don't see how I can explain this to somebody who's so clueless he thinks Poland was independent of the Soviet Union after the war and thinks minor countries in Europe would have had an incentive to debunk the Holocaust.

Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

For posterity

Didn't Nessie use to argue that because the investigators were nominally Polish, this meant they were unbiased and essentially made up an "independent" investigatory party, and that they were in no way directed by the Soviets? I don't know if he has abandoned this line of argument because of how facially ridiculous it was or if he's still running with it.

...Poland regained its independence after the war...

[Nessie]

What is the systemic issue, with the Romanian Holocaust trials? Romanian's, under "The People's Tribunal", prosecuted Romanians, for their role in the mass murder of Jews, including prosecuting Jews who collaborated with the Nazi allied Antonescu government;

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 1B7AEDA8E4

"While several individual Jews were indicted in various trials, an entire trial at the Bucharest People's Tribunal examined the case of prominent Jewish collaborators of the Antonescu regime, namely the wartime employees of the Jewish Centre (Centrala Evreilor), which was a Romanian version of a Jewish Council under the Nazi sphere of influence."

Then you can explain the issues over Romanians prosecuting Hungarians,

"The nine trials held at the Cluj branch of the People's Tribunal starting with July 1945 examined the crimes perpetrated mostly by Hungarian military and civilian authorities (soldiers, policemen, and gendarmes) and local Hungarians and Germans against Jews, ethnic Romanians, and anti-fascists during their rule of Northern Transylvania (1940–1944)".

[Archie]

I don't see how I can explain this to somebody who's so clueless he thinks Poland was independent of the Soviet Union after the war and thinks minor countries in Europe would have had an incentive to debunk the Holocaust.

Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

For posterity

Didn't Nessie use to argue that because the investigators were nominally Polish, this meant they were unbiased and essentially made up an "independent" investigatory party, and that they were in no way directed by the Soviets? I don't know if he has abandoned this line of argument because of how facially ridiculous it was or if he's still running with it.

...Poland regained its independence after the war...

There's something almost wholesome about Nessie's naivete about politics.

[Nessie]

I don't see how I can explain this to somebody who's so clueless he thinks Poland was independent of the Soviet Union after the war and thinks minor countries in Europe would have had an incentive to debunk the Holocaust.

Nessie, who was doing the "investigations"? What was the relationship of those political entities to Nazi Germany?

For posterity

Didn't Nessie use to argue that because the investigators were nominally Polish, this meant they were unbiased and essentially made up an "independent" investigatory party, and that they were in no way directed by the Soviets? I don't know if he has abandoned this line of argument because of how facially ridiculous it was or if he's still running with it.

...Poland regained its independence after the war...

What were the supposed systemic issues with the Polish war crimes trials, under the Supreme National Tribunal?

Where is the evidence that they were directed by the Soviets and what did that direction involve?

[HansHill]

There's something almost wholesome about Nessie's naivete about politics.

The Liberal Boomer mind will forever and always fail Schmitt's Friend Enemy distinction

[Archie]

Since Nessie is obviously struggling:

The IMT was an "international" tribunal. USA, UK, France, USSR. It seems to have escaped Nessie's notice that these countries were coincidentally Germany's enemies during the war.

The NMT - American run.

Supreme National Tribunal - Communist Poland (the Poles had also been enemies of Germany, plus add the Soviet/Communist influence)

'Muh West German Trials'
-The Bonn Government was the consequence of Allied occupation and denazification policies. It joined NATO in 1955. There are still American troops there today.
-The trials were the brainchild of a Jewish prosecutor named Fritz Bauer
-At the start of Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, they had several historians from the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte (an institute set up to police the history of the Third Reich era) and give the "historical context" for the trial, i.e., all the findings of the earlier show trials.

[Nessie]

...

There's something almost wholesome about Nessie's naivete about politics.

More procrastination. I take it you are not aware that Holocaust related war crimes trials took place all over Europe, with multiple investigating authorities, such as "The Treason Settlement" in Norway? What were the systemic issues with Norwegians prosecuting Norwegians?

[Nessie]

Since Nessie is obviously struggling:

The IMT was an "international" tribunal. USA, UK, France, USSR. It seems to have escaped Nessie's notice that these countries were coincidentally Germany's enemies during the war.

The NMT - American run.

Supreme National Tribunal - Communist Poland (the Poles had also been enemies of Germany, plus add the Soviet/Communist influence)

'Muh West German Trials'
-The Bonn Government was the consequence of Allied occupation and denazification policies. It joined NATO in 1955. There are still American troops there today.
-The trials were the brainchild of a Jewish prosecutor named Fritz Bauer
-At the start of Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, they had several historians from the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte (an institute set up to police the history of the Third Reich era) and give the "historical context" for the trial, i.e., all the findings of the earlier show trials.

Your argument appears to be that when a victor prosecutes the vanquished, that is a "systemic" issue. But more detail is needed. If a victor prosecutes the vanquished for crimes that are proven to have been committed, what are the "systemic" issues? When countries from Norway to Romania also prosecuted their own nationals and nationals from other countries, extradited to be tried for their roles in the Holocaust during the war, how does that fit with the victor prosecuting the vanquished?

[Archie]

Since Nessie is obviously struggling:

The IMT was an "international" tribunal. USA, UK, France, USSR. It seems to have escaped Nessie's notice that these countries were coincidentally Germany's enemies during the war.

The NMT - American run.

Supreme National Tribunal - Communist Poland (the Poles had also been enemies of Germany, plus add the Soviet/Communist influence)

'Muh West German Trials'
-The Bonn Government was the consequence of Allied occupation and denazification policies. It joined NATO in 1955. There are still American troops there today.
-The trials were the brainchild of a Jewish prosecutor named Fritz Bauer
-At the start of Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, they had several historians from the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte (an institute set up to police the history of the Third Reich era) and give the "historical context" for the trial, i.e., all the findings of the earlier show trials.

Your argument appears to be that when a victor prosecutes the vanquished, that is a "systemic" issue. But more detail is needed. If a victor prosecutes the vanquished for crimes that are proven to have been committed, what are the "systemic" issues? When countries from Norway to Romania also prosecuted their own nationals and nationals from other countries, extradited to be tried for their roles in the Holocaust during the war, how does that fit with the victor prosecuting the vanquished?

The Norwegians purged all the fascists from the government after the war. Whoa, who could have seen that coming? Now I'm really going to have to rethink everything!

There's no way Vidkun Quisling was going to remain in power in Norway after the fall of the Reich.