Citation - fire pits

[Booze]

Is there any citation for the holocaust industry abandoning the claim that children were thrown live into fire pits at Auschwitz?

[Stubble]

Nope. Plenty of stuff calling 'night's an eyewitness autobiography though, so, technically, still part of 'The Holy H'. When you point it out though, people will say you are strawmanning.

[Booze]

Nope. Plenty of stuff calling 'night's an eyewitness autobiography though, so, technically, still part of 'The Holy H'. When you point it out though, people will say you are strawmanning.

Elie Wiesel was exactly who I had in mind with this question. They would need to throw a Nobel prize winner under the bus in order to refute this story.

Short of official citation are there any anti-revisionists who have distanced themselves in any way from that claim?

[Booze]

Let me approach this another way.
Do authors such as Raul Hilberg and the like make this claim in their books?

[Stubble]

I'll see if I can find Debbie lipshitz saying it some place. Pretty sure she's the only one stupid enough to actually crow it.

Hilberg would cite authors who said crazy shit, but never the crazy shit, so, I doubt he mentioned the burning babies. Same with Arad and Bauer. Browning wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. I believe Professor Terry said something to the effect of 'it's hyperbole'.

Ole Elie made sure to mention the lakes and rivers of fire and the burning of babies alive (to the background of SS men beating drums to drown out their cries I'm sure), but, oddly omitted the Homicidal Gas Chambers, not unlike many other early authors. Strange that.

Then there is tge part about going to rape and loot upon liberation. How 'pleasant' and what a sterling example of 'Nobel Material'.

[Booze]

omit

[Booze]

I'll see if I can find Debbie lipshitz saying it some place. Pretty sure she's the only one stupid enough to actually crow it.

Hilberg would cite authors who said crazy shit, but never the crazy shit, so, I doubt he mentioned the burning babies. Same with Arad and Bauer. Browning wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. I believe Professor Terry said something to the effect of 'it's hyperbole'.

I just got done checking Hilberg's book on the Internet Archive it's a limited preview but it can be searched (it seems like a full search but I can't be sure).
I used a several search terms (children, pits, flames, fire, Auschwitz etc). As far as I can find he mentions one incident describing a mass shooting, in an unsigned and undated report, that claims children were set on fire. It had nothing to do with Auschwitz.
Hilberg's book seems to be loaded with a lot of Jewish victim-hood through the centuries. He goes very heavy on historic claims of Jews poisoning wells as if it's all baseless defaming by Christians. But recently I read of a report admitting that, post ww2, Jews poisoned Palestinian wells as a method of driving them off their land. Hopefully I'll locate it.
He also mentions that the Einsatzgruppen gave all the dirty work of murdering children to the Ukranians, which obviously conflicts with the idea of Germans burning children at Auschwitz.

Ole Elie made sure to mention the lakes and rivers of fire and the burning of babies alive (to the background of SS men beating drums to drown out their cries I'm sure), but, oddly omitted the Homicidal Gas Chambers, not unlike many other early authors. Strange that.

Then there is tge part about going to rape and loot upon liberation. How 'pleasant' and what a sterling example of 'Nobel Material'.

I'm interested in having those particular excerpts, if they are available.

[Stubble]

On the book night, a thread;

viewtopic.php?p=18990#p18990

Regarding jewish well poisoning in Palestine, you are thinking of 'operation cast they bread'.

ℌ𝔢𝔯𝔯 ℌ𝔦𝔩𝔩 kindly started a thread in the jewish history sub forum about it, and I mentioned the 'jewish Avengers' who tried to poison the water supply during the occupation of Germany post war to kill 6,000,000 Germans in that thread.

I still haven't found anyone bothering to try to support the rivers and lakes for fire into which babies were thrown at Auschwitz. Debbie may have refrained from lending support to the claim.

[Booze]

On the book night, a thread;

viewtopic.php?p=18990#p18990
Regarding jewish well poisoning in Palestine, you are thinking of 'operation cast they bread'.

Thank you for that information

viewtopic.php?p=18990#p18990
ℌ𝔢𝔯𝔯 ℌ𝔦𝔩𝔩 kindly started a thread in the jewish history sub forum about it, and I mentioned the 'jewish Avengers' who tried to poison the water supply during the occupation of Germany post war to kill 6,000,000 Germans in that thread.
[/quote]
I did see a documentary about early Israeli terrorism that mentioned their plot to poison German water supplies post war. It strikes me as amazing that Hilberg fixates on it as pure fiction drummed up by Christians. I will be reading Herr Hill's thread.

viewtopic.php?p=18990#p18990
I still haven't found anyone bothering to try to support the rivers and lakes for fire into which babies were thrown at Auschwitz. Debbie may have refrained from lending support to the claim.
[/quote]
I'm looking through Arad's book to this point I've found nothing.

[Stubble]

Apologies, I forgot to link this one;

viewtopic.php?t=413

[pilgrimofdark]

I don't think any serious historian will explicitly reject Wiesel's flaming pits schlock. That would be edging too close to denial.

"You're denying my Holocaust" is the original "you're not respecting my pronouns."

So it gets labeled as "symbolic" but anyone who believes in its literal truth is also correct. What's most important is that you believe in atrocity Holoporno of some sort.

Wiesel probably used the flaming pits because it corresponds to a more literal definition of "holocaust" as burnt offering.

Here's how E. Michael Jones analyzes it:

In describing flaming pits, Wiesel was adopting a trope which had already been accepted as evidence at the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal. Like the pericopes which make up the Gospels, the Holocaust Narrative is made up of tropes, which can be inserted at will to provide repositories of meaning. One can replace the other as the narrative develops in time, which is precisely what happened to Wiesel's burning pit narrative when it got replaced by the gas chamber trope after aerial photographs, released in 1979, made it obvious that there were no 80-meter-long flaming pits in the camps.

The Holocaust Narrative, p. 202.

Routledge also has a whole section on Elie Wiesel's flaming pits, "Problem #4: Burning of Victims in Huge Trenches," starting on page 108.

Hilberg bought into the flaming pits trope. Eventually, a French author settled on the fact that such claims are "symbolic," even though the "eyewitnesses" to flaming trenches say they were literal.

It is important to note how Jean-François Forges, the author of the French brainwashing manual for teachers, handles this claim by Wiesel. Not surprisingly, he falls back on the excuse that Wiesel is actually speaking in allegorical terms, not literal ones. First, completely ignoring the aerial photographs which clearly show that Wiesel’s vision is a pure invention, Forges tries to validate Wiesel’s vision by stating that other eyewitnesses also saw flames and smoke.

Elie Wiesel, Saint of the Holocaust, HH#30, p. 123.

When evidence converges to something convenient, it's called "corroboration."

When evidence converges to something inconvenient, it's "symbolic" or the eyewitnesses are diagnosed with mental/cognitive disorders.

In a bizarre book called Fantasies of Witnessing, the author agonizes for dozens of pages how to address Wiesel telling two contradictory versions of how his father died.

But he also believes in the flaming pits:

As director of the President's Commission on the Holocaust, created in 1978, and a council member charged with conceptualizing the Holocaust Memorial Museum's permanent exhibition, [Rabbi Irving] Greenberg has played a major role in shaping Holocaust commemoration in the United States. In a paper presented at a 1974 symposium on the Holocaust, he offered the following dictum: "No statement, theological or otherwise, should be made that would not be credible in the presence of the burning children."

Perhaps no statement better captures the sanctimonious veneration of horror that so often serves to curtail rather than encourage critical thinking about our present-day relationship to the Holocaust. Such statements, it seems to me, promote a kind of dishonesty under the guise of virtuousness. Certainly, in the presence of the children who were thrown alive into the crematorium furnaces or burning pits at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1944, no abstract statement, theological, philosophical, or theoretical, would be appropriate—including, of course, Greenberg's own working principle. But this is precisely not the context in which we make statements about the Holocaust, and pretending that it is limits and distorts understanding of how present concerns shape the historical past.

Fantasies of Witnessing, p. 215-216

"The sanctimonious veneration of horror" I'm going to try to use that one more often.

[Archie]

Dr. Nyiszli also claims this. There are also stories about children being shoved alive into the ovens.



Both Wiesel and Nyiszli are still seen as legit witnesses and their books continue to be presented as factual.

Norman Finkelstein (maybe a little bit outside the "mainstream") is quite critical of Wiesel in The Holocaust Industry.

Robert Rozett of Yad Vashem says this in the introduction to Alfred Wetzler's memoir Escape from Hell.

Escape from Hell, Alfred Wetzler's personal story, straddles the line between memoir and literature, in many ways like Eli Wiesel's much heralded Night.

Hmm, that's one way of putting it. He's admitting the work is partially fictional. Of course he doesn't want to say which parts.

Night is actually part of a trilogy. There were two follow-ups, Dawn and Day. Interestingly, both of those are sold as novels. If they were honest, all three would be labeled as novels.

[Eye of Zyclone]

I'll see if I can find Debbie lipshitz saying it some place. Pretty sure she's the only one stupid enough to actually crow it.

Hilberg would cite authors who said crazy shit, but never the crazy shit, so, I doubt he mentioned the burning babies. Same with Arad and Bauer. Browning wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. I believe Professor Terry said something to the effect of 'it's hyperbole'.

Ole Elie made sure to mention the lakes and rivers of fire and the burning of babies alive (to the background of SS men beating drums to drown out their cries I'm sure), but, oddly omitted the Homicidal Gas Chambers, not unlike many other early authors. Strange that.

David Olère also painted it.

[Stubble]

That's not a painting, it's a photograph! Why by golly gee, there we have it. I'm gonna have to pack it up and go home fellas, holocaust proved, right there.

(My tongue is firmly in my cheek)

[Booze]

Dr. Nyiszli also claims this. There are also stories about children being shoved alive into the ovens.

Great video. I've never heard of Provan. I was unable to find the full video. From what I read on Wiki it seems like he turned away from revisionism.

Both Wiesel and Nyiszli are still seen as legit witnesses and their books continue to be presented as factual.

Norman Finkelstein (maybe a little bit outside the "mainstream") is quite critical of Wiesel in The Holocaust Industry.

Robert Rozett of Yad Vashem says this in the introduction to Alfred Wetzler's memoir Escape from Hell.

Escape from Hell, Alfred Wetzler's personal story, straddles the line between memoir and literature, in many ways like Eli Wiesel's much heralded Night.

Hmm, that's one way of putting it. He's admitting the work is partially fictional. Of course he doesn't want to say which parts.

I'm going to have to try to get a screenshot of that quote.

Night is actually part of a trilogy. There were two follow-ups, Dawn and Day. Interestingly, both of those are sold as novels. If they were honest, all three would be labeled as novels.

I wasn't aware of that.