The Keen vs Confused jew debate

[Keen]

It starts off with CJ answering THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX - Mass Graves / Buried Remains - Forensic Evaluation Form (AKA): 60 simple questions that expose the holocaust archaeology hoax

PART ONE:

*1 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; “You shall return minus six million” is - JEWISH PROPHECY - that has allegedly been fulfilled via the “jewish holocaust of WWII” - ??

*2 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The persecution and extermination of 6 million jews was repeatedly mentioned in the media for years - PRIOR TO WORLD WAR II - ??

*3 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; In 1933 - JEWS DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY - ??

*4 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The once alleged - AUSCHWITZ DEATH TOLL - of 4 million has been - MARKEDLY REDUCED - ??

*5 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; It was once seriously alleged that - A SMALL POND - in Auschwitz contained the - “ASHES” - of 4 million people - ??

*6 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The alleged Auschwitz - “ASH POND” - / - BURIAL SITE - has never been archeologically / forensically / scientifically proven to contain so-much-as 1 / 100 of 1 percent of - THIS DEATH TOLL - figure - ??

*7 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; It was once seriously alleged that the so-called - “ASH MOUND” - “mass grave” at Sobibor was comprised of - “ASHES” OF JEWS - ??

*8 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Sobibor's alleged - “ASH MOUND” - “burial site” has never been archeologically / forensically / scientifically proven to contain so-much-as 1 / 100 of 1 percent of - THIS DEATH TOLL - figure - ??

*9 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Not one of the alleged - “HUGE MASS GRAVES” - of Treblinka II alleged by so-called “eyewitnesses” - has ever been proven to exist - ??

*10 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits in question at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II, in which verified human remains have been tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, is - THIS SOBIBOR GRAVE - ??

PART TWO:

I - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; “Eyewitness testimony” was instrumental in “proving” the so-called “historical truth” of the alleged Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II holocausts - ??

II - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; “Eyewitness accounts” of the existence of “huge mass graves” is an integral aspect of the alleged Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II holocausts - ??

III - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The alleged “eyewitnesses” to the alleged Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II holocausts - allege that jews were murdered, buried, dug up, stacked in huge piles and burned like cordwood, and their remains were then reburied into the same “huge mass graves” and covered over with “a thick layer of sand” - ??

IV - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Covering millions upon millions of pounds of bones and teeth with “a thick layer of sand” makes them magically disappear - ??

V - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 100 graves contained the bones and teeth of 2.1 million people - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 21,000 people - ??

VI - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Blacks Law Dictionary defines - Burden of Proof - as: “The necessity or duty of affirmatively proving a fact or facts in dispute on an issue raised between the parties in a cause.” - ??

VII - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The maxims of law found in Bouvier's Law Dictionary include: “The claimant is always bound to prove: the burden of proof lies on him.” - and - “The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not he who denies.” - ??

VIII - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If “huge mass graves” containing tons of human remains really were “forensically proven” to exist at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - via bona fide, verifiably honest, and conclusively documented archaeology - then such “scientific proof” would be considered credible and convincing evidence in a U.S. court of law - ??

IX - Is it - True. - or False. - that; If something really is an “undeniable scientifically proven fact” - then it should be provable as such in a U.S. court of law - ??

X - Has it been legally determined in the U.S. that all 100 of the alleged graves / cremation pits in question - currently contain human remains - Yes. - or - No. - ??

XI - Has it been legally determined in the U.S. that all 100 of the alleged graves / cremation pits in question - contained human remains at some point in time - Yes. - or - No. - ??

XII - Has it been legally determined in the U.S. that all 100 of the alleged graves / cremation pits in question - even exist - Yes. - or - No. - ??

XIII - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The following: “That which does not appear to exist is to be regarded as if it did not exist.” - is a legally recognized maxim of law in the U.S. - ??

XIV - Is it - True. - or False. - that; It is common for juries in the U.S. to be given instructions that include some form of the following: “If you decide that a witness has deliberately testified untruthfully about something important, you may choose not to believe anything that witness said.” - ??

XV - Is it - True. - or False. - that; The maxims of the United States Supreme Court include: “Cross examination is the greatest legal engine ever invented for the discovery of truth.” - ??

XVI - Is it - True. - or False. - that; Those who allege to have “scientifically proven” the alleged graves / cremation pits in question - refuse to accept their burden of proof and expose themselves to cross-examination under oath by Greg Gerdes in a U.S. civil court - ??

PART THREE:

A - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Non-nefarious diggings for such things as garbage pits, cellars, wells, latrines, etc. - were dug at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - ??

B - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; It has been alleged in orthodox historiography and/or the media that huge pits were dug and utilized as mass graves at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - ??

C - Can you provide credible and convincing evidence that it has been alleged in orthodox historiography and/or the media that huge pits were dug and utilized as mass graves at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

D - Can it be conclusively proven that it has been alleged in orthodox historiography and/or the media that huge pits were dug and utilized as mass graves at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

E - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; It has been alleged in orthodox historiography and/or the media that mass graves have been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - ??

F - Can you provide credible and convincing evidence that it has been alleged in orthodox historiography and/or the media that mass graves have been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

G - Can it be conclusively proven that it has been alleged in orthodox historiography and/or the media that mass graves have been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

H - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Mass graves have actually been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - ??

I - Can you provide credible and convincing evidence that mass graves have actually been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

J - Is there a preponderance of credible and convincing evidence that mass graves have actually been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

K - Can it be conclusively proven that mass graves have actually been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

L - Is it a fact that mass graves have actually been discovered by archaeologists / forensic investigators at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

M - Can you conclusively prove that archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of mass graves at one or more of the following camps: Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor or Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

PART FOUR:

1 - List all of the Belzec graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove actually exist and currently contain at least an iota of human remains: __?__.

2 - List all of the Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove actually exist and currently contain at least an iota of human remains: __?__.

3 - List all of the Ponary graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove actually exist and currently contain at least an iota of human remains: __?__.

4 - List all of the Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove actually exist and currently contain at least an iota of human remains: __?__.

5 - List all of the Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove actually exist and currently contain at least an iota of human remains: __?__.

6 - List all of the Belzec graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: __?__.

7 - List all of the Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: __?__.

8 - List all of the Ponary graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: __?__.

9 - List all of the Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: __?__.

10 - List all of the Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: __?__.

11 - List all of the Belzec graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 21 human beings: __?__.

12 - List all of the Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 21 human beings: __?__.

13 - List all of the Ponary graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 21 human beings: __?__.

14 - List all of the Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 21 human beings: __?__.

15 - List all of the Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 21 human beings: __?__.

16 - Of the 33 alleged Belzec graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: __?__.

17 - Of the 21 alleged Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: __?__.

18 - Of the 7 alleged Ponary graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: __?__.

19 - Of the 24 alleged Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: __?__.

20 - Of the 15 alleged Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: __?__.

21 - Of the 100 alleged graves / cremation pits of Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: __?__.

https://thisisaboutscience.com/

The debate centers around how many of the 100 fraudulently alleged / insinuated - mass graves / cremation pits - of Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - that CJ can conclusively prove have been scientifically proven to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of at least 21 people.

I say he can't prove even one.

[Keen]

Note to CJ: I am traveling and will have very limited access to computers for a while, so it may take a while for me to respond to your posts.

[HansHill]

This is my Super Bowl.

[Archie]

Keen, why not cut out the middle man and debate ChatGPT directly?

IMO Keen vs Nessie is the more compelling match-up.

[Nessie]

Keen, why not cut out the middle man and debate ChatGPT directly?

IMO Keen vs Nessie is the more compelling match-up.

Keen, like Gerdes, will not debate. Instead, he demands lots of his questions are answered, and if that demand is not complied with, he resorts to abuse. I would debate Keen if he agrees to no abuse, one question at a time, alternating between us, and the question has to be answered, but the answer cannot be in the form of a question, before we move on to the next question.

I predict he will not agree to that.

[HansHill]

[Stubble]

[bombsaway]

Looking at the first 3 questions, aren't you guys embarrassed by this?

6 million comes from obscure Jewish numerology which the creators of the Holocaust were tuned into? What's the reference even? Please quote me directly with a link. And they were putting this reference into newspaper articles decades prior, why?Jews are not a nation, they cannot declare war in any meaningful sense. Did all Jews in 1933 decide it was their mission to destroy Germany? There were even many Jews inside Germany that didn't take Hitler seriously and thought everything would blow over, some organizations actually supported the regime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associati ... ional_Jews

[Stubble]

Regarding the 6,000,000;

https://www.torahtothetribes.com/teachi ... n-part-2c/

6,000,000 has its origins in an ancient Babylonian sorcerers prophecy straight out of the pages of Torah.

Lev 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

תשבו ‘Ye shall return’ = ‘TaShuVU’ - תשבו Tav-Shin-Vet-Vav and it seems to be spelled incorrectly…it’s missing another ו Vav and should be spelt תשובו Tav-Shin-Vav-Vet-Vav תשובו 6,000,000 is the mystical and magical conjure number associated with ushering in the Balaam oracles of return to the land of Israel.

The magic: the letter ו Vav is missing;ו Vav = 6. conjure up the vanishing ו Vav and the spell will be set.

The return will only happen upon the manufacture of the missing ו Vav. The missing ו Vav is what enables the return to happen

In case you don't like that one;

https://www.chaimbentorah.com/2024/09/h ... ll-return/

You see a few hundred years ago esoteric rabbis took the word tashuvu (you shall return) and broke it down into its numerical value. Taw = 400, Shin = 300, Beth = 2 and Vav = 6. For a total of 708. When using the Gematria to determine a date they add the millennia of 5 (based on the belief that creation took place 5,000 years ago) and came up with the year 5708 as the year that they would return to Israel.Ironically (or maybe Divinely) 5708 in the Jewish calendar is 1948 on our calendar, the year Israel was declared a nation by the United Nations. If not for that so called grammatical error the date would have been 5714 or 1954. But the rabbis were still scratching their heads as to why the return had to coincide with a date that was the result of a grammatical error. Why is that Vav missing. In 1948 the rabbis realized the obvious reason for the missing Vav. The Holocaust was one of the main factors that prompted the United Nations to vote to give the Jews a nation. The Vav is the number 6 and there were 6 million Jews who perished in the Holocaust and were unable to return to Israel.

Is all this coincidence or Divine Intent? With this war in Israel ramping up with incursion into Lebanon and the outright support by Iran for the enemies against Israel, if these calculations are not coincidence but Divine Intent, then sit back because God is about to do something big for Israel.

[bombsaway]

There is no grammatical error, it's a common feature you can find in the bible over and over again, with all sorts of different words (vowels are omitted)

In Hebrew, particularly in a Torah scroll (which is written without vowels or punctuation), there are two valid ways to spell many words:

Ktiv Malei (כתיב מלא - "Full Spelling"): Vowels are sometimes represented by "helper" letters, such as Vav for an "o" or "u" sound.
Ktiv Haser (כתיב חסר - "Defective" or "Lacking Spelling"): The word is spelled without the helper letter, and the vowel sound is understood by the reader.

It's very common for Vav to be omitted and for other letters to be omitted as well

. While Vav is a very common letter to be omitted in *ktiv haser* (defective spelling), the same principle applies to other letters that can function as vowel markers, most notably the letter **Yud (י)**, which often indicates an "i" or "e" sound.

Here are several prominent examples of *ktiv haser* that do not involve the letter Vav.

### 1. The Name "David" (דוד vs. דויד)

This is one of the most classic and frequent examples.

* **Defective Spelling (*Haser*):** **דָּוִד** (D-V-D)
* This is the most common spelling of King David's name in the Hebrew Bible, especially in the books of Samuel and Kings. The "i" vowel sound is indicated by a diacritical mark (a *hiriq* dot) under the Dalet (ד), not by a full letter.
* **Plene Spelling (*Malei*):** **דָּוִיד** (D-V-Y-D)
* In this "full" spelling, the letter **Yud (י)** is added after the Dalet to represent the "i" sound. This spelling becomes more common in later biblical books like Chronicles.

This variation occurs hundreds of times and clearly shows that the presence or absence of the Yud was a standard scribal variant, not an error.

### 2. "Gerizim" vs. "Gerizzim" (גרזים vs. גריזים)

The name of Mount Gerizim provides an excellent example within a single book.

* **Defective Spelling (*Haser*):** **גְּרִזִים** (G-R-Z-M)
* In Deuteronomy 11:29, the name is spelled without a Yud.
* **Plene Spelling (*Malei*):** **גְּרִיזִים** (G-R-Y-Z-M)
* Later in the same book, in Deuteronomy 27:12, the name is spelled with a **Yud (י)**.

The fact that both spellings are used by the same author for the same place demonstrates that this was a normal orthographic variation.

### 3. "Shamayim" ("Heavens/Sky" - שמים vs. שמים)

The word for "heavens" or "sky" is *shamayim*.

* **Defective Spelling (*Haser*):** **שָׁמַיִם** (Sh-M-Y-M)
* This is the standard spelling. The diacritical marks indicate the vowels.
* **Plene Spelling (*Malei*):** **שָׁמַיִם**
* While the standard spelling is already considered plene by some, there are discussions in textual criticism regarding variants, but the key point is the fluidity. A better example here involves plural endings. For instance, the masculine plural ending *-im* is sometimes spelled **-ִם** (*haser*) and sometimes **-ִים** (*malei*) with a Yud.

Let's use a clearer example with the plural ending.

### 4. Plural Endings: "-im" (-ִם vs. -ִים)

This is a widespread phenomenon. The standard masculine plural ending in Hebrew is pronounced "-im".

* **Defective Spelling (*Haser*):** The ending is written as just the letter **Mem (ם)** with a *hiriq* dot underneath.
* Example: **מְלָכִם** (melakhim - "kings").
* **Plene Spelling (*Malei*):** The ending is written with a **Yud (י)** followed by a **Mem (ים)**.
* Example: **מְלָכִים** (melakhim - "kings").

You can find both spellings for the same plural nouns throughout the Bible. For example, the word for "judges" (*shofetim*) appears in both forms: **שֹׁפְטִם** and **שֹׁפְטִים**.

These examples confirm that the principle of *ktiv haser* is a broad feature of Biblical Hebrew orthography and is not unique to the letter Vav. The omission of the letter Yud as a vowel marker is just as common and was considered a perfectly valid way of writing.

There's also zero explanation of how you go from 6 -> 6 million. That's just another leap being taken by biblical theorists who may be motivated by an end of the world situation or want to grift off of that (in the examples you show).

Even aside from this we are to be believe that the people who implanted 6 million in the newspapers, who instructed Hoetl to say Eichmann told him 6 million had been killed, are motivated by this biblical prophecy? But they (in your frame) are lying, so even this doesn't make sense. These theories rely on dubious assumptions about biblical grammar, missing multipliers, and even if we accept them, the motivations are incomprehensible.

[Stubble]

It's gematria man, talk to your rabbi about it.

It's not some antisemitic conspiracy theory, it's rabbinical gematria and it has a history that probably goes all the way back to the expulsion/diaspora from the Levant.

You can pilpul all you want about it, that won't change.

[bombsaway]

It's gematria man, talk to your rabbi about it.

It's not some antisemitic conspiracy theory, it's rabbinical gematria and it has a history that probably goes all the way back to the expulsion/diaspora from the Levant.

You can pilpul all you want about it, that won't change.

I mean that's fine, I think it's patently ridiculous though I can't say I'm surprised, based on your other posts.

But what is the implication here anyway, the cohort that manufactured the Holocaust and manipulated affairs on a global level to set up the Israeli state were like deep esotericists, highly motivated to fulfill some biblical prophecy and bring about the end times?

[Stubble]

It's a 'jewish number prophecy'. Of course the 6,000,000 is ridiculous.

/shrug

[bombsaway]

It's a 'jewish number prophecy'. Of course the 6,000,000 is ridiculous.

/shrug

What's the relevance then? Give me a narrative of how the number went from 'the bible' to being used by Holocaust manufacturers and why they used it.

[Stubble]

It ties the event to the jewish 'zeitgeist' for lack of a better term and mints the event into a fable.

Incredibly useful if you ask me.

Furthermore it instills in the zionist a righteousness about the theft of Palestine because to them it becomes a fulfillment of prophecy.