The Keen vs Confused jew debate

[bombsaway]

It ties the event to the jewish 'zeitgeist' for lack of a better term and mints the event into a fable.

Incredibly useful if you ask me.

Furthermore it instills in the zionist a righteousness about the theft of Palestine because to them it becomes a fulfillment of prophecy.

So the people who "directed" these events, decided on these numbers based on the predictions in the bible? This number specifically, so they could link it back?

[HansHill]

It ties the event to the jewish 'zeitgeist' for lack of a better term and mints the event into a fable.

Incredibly useful if you ask me.

Furthermore it instills in the zionist a righteousness about the theft of Palestine because to them it becomes a fulfillment of prophecy.

So the people who "directed" these events, decided on these numbers based on the predictions in the bible? This number specifically, so they could link it back?

It's a bit unfair BA for you to be interrogating both Stubble & Keen on the specifics here, as they were the ones asking the original questions. We know the 6 Million Jews is a recurring trope; if you choose to debate the point you would need to either reject its pre-Holocaust recurrence as immaterial / co-incidence / fake (!) or, offer us something as to why he's wrong to introduce it as an argument against the modern Holocaust.

Wow-just-wowing is weak.

[bombsaway]

It ties the event to the jewish 'zeitgeist' for lack of a better term and mints the event into a fable.

Incredibly useful if you ask me.

Furthermore it instills in the zionist a righteousness about the theft of Palestine because to them it becomes a fulfillment of prophecy.

So the people who "directed" these events, decided on these numbers based on the predictions in the bible? This number specifically, so they could link it back?

It's a bit unfair BA for you to be interrogating both Stubble & Keen on the specifics here, as they were the ones asking the original questions. We know the 6 Million Jews is a recurring trope; if you choose to debate the point you would need to either reject its pre-Holocaust recurrence as immaterial / co-incidence / fake (!) or, offer us something as to why he's wrong to introduce it as an argument against the modern Holocaust.

Wow-just-wowing is weak.

Maybe you didn't see this, but I had this argument before on this forum or another, maybe Rodoh, but I showed using google search that the 6 million number was just as common as 5 million, when describing Jews. There's no evidenced significance to the 6 million, so yes, you could call it a coincidence, but not a very good one because 5 million shows up just as much.

I told Stubble why the biblical interpretation was nonsensical, he responded with, this is just pilpul, which is a discussion ender.

What all of this shows, is the tendency of people on your side of the debate to believe in anything that "fits" the narrative, no matter how preposterous (some things are more or less preposterous than others). You fall into this category too, with your apparent defense or at least sympathy towards these viewpoints. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5900972/

This stuff (finding patterns where there are none) is an interesting counterpoint to orthodoxy, where the patterns is indisputably there but the evidence is considered to be fabricated, witnesses lying, archeologists lying or incompetent.

[bombsaway]

previous discussion about "6 million", I found it

https://rodoh.info/thread/686/don-under ... -6?page=32

[SanityCheck]

It ties the event to the jewish 'zeitgeist' for lack of a better term and mints the event into a fable.

Incredibly useful if you ask me.

Furthermore it instills in the zionist a righteousness about the theft of Palestine because to them it becomes a fulfillment of prophecy.

So the people who "directed" these events, decided on these numbers based on the predictions in the bible? This number specifically, so they could link it back?

It's a bit unfair BA for you to be interrogating both Stubble & Keen on the specifics here, as they were the ones asking the original questions. We know the 6 Million Jews is a recurring trope; if you choose to debate the point you would need to either reject its pre-Holocaust recurrence as immaterial / co-incidence / fake (!) or, offer us something as to why he's wrong to introduce it as an argument against the modern Holocaust.

Wow-just-wowing is weak.

The 'recurring trope' stemmed from growth in the Jewish population of Europe in the 19th and early 20th Centuries; six million was especially by the 1900s a perfectly reasonable rounding-up of censuses for Eastern Europe, with population growth continuing despite large-scale emigration. Other millions were however also referenced in the press and publications. The same applied in the interwar period and in WWII, since the Jewish population of Europe was aggregated via censuses and estimates at 9-10 million in 1939.

Thus, 'six million' would not only be one of 9-10 options for particular millions that could arise, it would also be a good summary-guesstimate of 'the majority of', 'more than half of' and even 'two-thirds of' European Jews in WWII. The probability of six million being referenced is therefore decidedly above average, just considering pure demographics and general knowledge as reflected in e.g. the American Jewish Yearbook (which Eichmann's office used as a source, among other consumers of this quite standard data).

The number was not preordained since estimates of death tolls during the war went from 2 million at the end of 1942, to 3 million in 1943 (Hitler's Ten Year War On the Jews), and then higher. Richard Lichtheim and Gerhard Riegner from their 'observation point' in Geneva, receiving a great deal of information, were talking of 4 million dead by August 1943.

By 1944 when six million starts appearing as a guesstimate, there was widespread awareness that all but a minority of Polish Jews were gone, 3 million for them still left the remaining survivors in camps and in hiding, plus refugees, as a perfectly reasonable rounded guesstimate. Some of the first observers to reference six million were Soviet Jews, who were acutely aware of the extent of killing in the USSR and knew enough about further west that this fitted.

By the start of 1945 when most of occupied Europe had been liberated, the earlier estimates plus newer reports confirmed the scale, so the Institute of Jewish Affairs followed up on Hitler's Ten Year War on the Jews with a July 1945 statistical report, arriving at 5.7 million. Other early calculations also got towards six million but essentially none reached it exactly and few exceeded it, so together with the equally rounded and estimated six million from Hoettl cited in the IMT Nuremberg judgement, 'six million' became the most repeated number.

When researchers scrutinised the numbers, as in Reitlinger 1953 and Hilberg 1961, the assumptions of the 1940s estimates could be queried and corrected with a variety of better data, coupled with some caution/skepticism (especially on Reitlinger's part). Their lower calculations of 4.2+ and 5.1 million were widely cited, e.g. Alan Bullock used Reitlinger in his Hitler biography 2nd edition, Hannah Arendt referenced the range with Reitlinger as a floor, Heinz Hoehne relied on Hilberg in The Order of the Death's Head. But in other publications and it would seem the media, six million became the canonical number.

One unexplored possible reason why six million may have caught on more generally (i.e. beyond the Jewish world) is that Christianity via the Book of Revelation identifies 666 as the number of the beast/Antichrist. But more likely the popular phrase 'six feet under' might also have reinforced the psychological appeal of referring to six million dead. Six shooter for revolver is another unconscious example of associating six with morbid/lethal things.

Other peoples also had their six millions after WWII - this was especially true of Poland. The relationship between these six millions has still not been clearly established, i.e. exactly when Polish sources started speaking of six million Polish dead (half of whom were Jewish). Soviet war crimes investigations calculated just over six million civilians killed under German/Axis occupation, but this wasn't publicised. Stalin opted to reduce the Soviet death toll to 7 million so as not to admit weakness or too heavy a wartime loss; it wasn't until the 1960s that Soviet authorities admitted to at least 20 million dead (after the 1959 census, when one could extrapolate backwards to identify a serious probable demographic loss).

German war losses have been estimated/calculated at between 5 and over 7 million total dead for the 1937 borders; there were overlapping estimates of 2 million dead during the Heimatvertreibungen which became as rounded and canonical as six million for the Holocaust, or one million for the Armenian and Rwandan genocides, or the equally canonical 3 million for the Bangladesh genocide of 1971. So there is no Jewish monopoly on rounded million figure death tolls.

[Stubble]

I apologize for the derailment, the 6,000,000 deserves it's own thread.

I find irony in all of this pilpul centered around 'there were other numbers' while ultimately this one, with a root in jewish gematria, was chosen as the total.

[HansHill]

Maybe you didn't see this, but I had this argument before on this forum or another, maybe Rodoh, but I showed using google search that the 6 million number was just as common as 5 million, when describing Jews. There's no evidenced significance to the 6 million, so yes, you could call it a coincidence, but not a very good one because 5 million shows up just as much.

I told Stubble why the biblical interpretation was nonsensical, he responded with, this is just pilpul, which is a discussion ender.

What all of this shows, is the tendency of people on your side of the debate to believe in anything that "fits" the narrative, no matter how preposterous (some things are more or less preposterous than others). You fall into this category too, with your apparent defense or at least sympathy towards these viewpoints. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5900972/

This stuff (finding patterns where there are none) is an interesting counterpoint to orthodoxy, where the patterns is indisputably there but the evidence is considered to be fabricated, witnesses lying, archeologists lying or incompetent.

I haven't seen it presented by you no, but I'm somewhat familiar with the argument from my Twitter days. It goes something like:

- The Jews routinely mentioned they had being exterminated / persecuted and the number was always 6 million!
- Alot of these mentions pre-date WW2 by decades!
- Therefore The Six Million in The Holocaust TM must be fake or contrived somehow!

I don't believe I'm strawmanning the position here.

I find your rebuttal lacking somewhat - You've shown me an enourmous number of "hits" for the number 5 million that predate WW2, dating as far back as 1900 and I've seen others (not you, i don't think) argue the same for other numbers like 3 million or 8 million or 7 million or what have you. All this really tells me, is the exact people that "my side" think are lying about the 6 million, have a history of lying about a whole range of other numbers too. I don't expect you to defend the WW1 Holocaust claims so I won't even press that point, and I'll just skip to us both agreeing that those claims are garbage and were used for the expedience of the emerging Zionist movement (Balfour Declaration, anyone?)

I'll paste here a quick googled image collating the 6 million pre-WW2, and below that I'll cite WW1 period headlines:

For specifics, these are all from the New York Times, alone – and confined specifically to the WW One era (1914 – 1918):

"Appeal for aid for Jews: American Committee tells of Suffering Due to War. The American Jewish Relief Committee called a conference... to consider the plight of more than 6,000,000 Jews who live within the war zone.”

“6,000,000 are in the very heart of the war zone; Jews whose lives are at stake and who today are subjected to every manner of sorrow and suffering.”

The belligerent government in Europe “has only one aim in view, to ex-terminate the Jewish race.”
The head of a Jewish aid society “declared that even the wrongs of the Belgians could not be compared to the outrages heaped upon the Polish Jews. ‘Nearly six million Jews are ruined, in the greatest moral and material misery... And the world is silent.’”

“Six millions of Jews are living in lands where they are oppressed, exploited, crushed, and robbed of every inalienable human right.”

“6,000,000 Jews need Help.”

Its not exactly a slamdunk to say the same people lying about muh persecuted six million, also lied about 5, and 9 and 4 and 8 and 3 and 7, at various other times when it suited the Zionist movement politically.

As for the biblical / rabbinical / mystical relevance of the 6 million, I've still yet to see a definitive answer - cognitive biases and wayward pattern recognition aside, are you categorically rejecting that there is any link? I think that was Keen's whole question.

[bombsaway]

Maybe you didn't see this, but I had this argument before on this forum or another, maybe Rodoh, but I showed using google search that the 6 million number was just as common as 5 million, when describing Jews. There's no evidenced significance to the 6 million, so yes, you could call it a coincidence, but not a very good one because 5 million shows up just as much.

I told Stubble why the biblical interpretation was nonsensical, he responded with, this is just pilpul, which is a discussion ender.

What all of this shows, is the tendency of people on your side of the debate to believe in anything that "fits" the narrative, no matter how preposterous (some things are more or less preposterous than others). You fall into this category too, with your apparent defense or at least sympathy towards these viewpoints. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5900972/

This stuff (finding patterns where there are none) is an interesting counterpoint to orthodoxy, where the patterns is indisputably there but the evidence is considered to be fabricated, witnesses lying, archeologists lying or incompetent.

I haven't seen it presented by you no, but I'm somewhat familiar with the argument from my Twitter days. It goes something like:

- The Jews routinely mentioned they had being exterminated / persecuted and the number was always 6 million!
- Alot of these mentions pre-date WW2 by decades!
- Therefore The Six Million in The Holocaust TM must be fake or contrived somehow!

I don't believe I'm strawmanning the position here.

I find your rebuttal lacking somewhat - You've shown me an enourmous number of "hits" for the number 5 million that predate WW2, dating as far back as 1900 and I've seen others (not you, i don't think) argue the same for other numbers like 3 million or 8 million or 7 million or what have you. All this really tells me, is the exact people that "my side" think are lying about the 6 million, have a history of lying about a whole range of other numbers too. I don't expect you to defend the WW1 Holocaust claims so I won't even press that point, and I'll just skip to us both agreeing that those claims are garbage and were used for the expedience of the emerging Zionist movement (Balfour Declaration, anyone?)

I'll paste here a quick googled image collating the 6 million pre-WW2, and below that I'll cite WW1 period headlines:

For specifics, these are all from the New York Times, alone – and confined specifically to the WW One era (1914 – 1918):

"Appeal for aid for Jews: American Committee tells of Suffering Due to War. The American Jewish Relief Committee called a conference... to consider the plight of more than 6,000,000 Jews who live within the war zone.”

“6,000,000 are in the very heart of the war zone; Jews whose lives are at stake and who today are subjected to every manner of sorrow and suffering.”

The belligerent government in Europe “has only one aim in view, to ex-terminate the Jewish race.”
The head of a Jewish aid society “declared that even the wrongs of the Belgians could not be compared to the outrages heaped upon the Polish Jews. ‘Nearly six million Jews are ruined, in the greatest moral and material misery... And the world is silent.’”

“Six millions of Jews are living in lands where they are oppressed, exploited, crushed, and robbed of every inalienable human right.”

“6,000,000 Jews need Help.”

Its not exactly a slamdunk to say the same people lying about muh persecuted six million, also lied about 5, and 9 and 4 and 8 and 3 and 7, at various other times when it suited the Zionist movement politically.

My argument in that thread was that "6 million" had no special significance, because other numbers like 5 million show up just as much, if not more. If you agree here we can move on.

I would say the reports were hyperbolic sure, to some extent, though not "lying" as you say. There was roughly this amount of Jews in Eastern Europe. Pogroms were a real thing and thousands of Jews were killed, even in the 20th century. I might compare these to claims of white genocide in South Africa. It's understandable and natural for ethnically minded people to try to draw attention to their brethren being harmed. The Jews as a group with significant power in the media would be expected to play up this sort of stuff.

But what is the connection to the Holocaust? The Holocaust is not believed to have happened on the basis of sensationalistic reporting thousands of miles away. For you to link this to the "hoax" narrative, you have to show that evidence was being fabricated (witness testimony/documents).

Otherwise yeah, you're seeing patterns in the noise, a problem which is endemic and fundamental within revisionism as I see it.

As for the biblical / rabbinical / mystical relevance of the 6 million, I've still yet to see a definitive answer - cognitive biases and wayward pattern recognition aside, are you categorically rejecting that there is any link? I think that was Keen's whole question.

Categorically as in 100%? No. I wouldn't categorically reject that mass resettlement happened either. Rather there is no reason to believe these things, and people on your side haven't even described a sensible mechanism for this number being used/implanted based on the esoteric connection. Did someone steeped in esotericism instruct Hoettl about the 6 million?

[Archie]

My argument in that thread was that "6 million" had no special significance, because other numbers like 5 million show up just as much, if not more. If you agree here we can move on.

This HC argument may or may not hold, but either way it fails to explain the premature six million references in 1942-1945. In particular, the claims that Hitler HAD killed six million. If you agree, then we can move on.

[bombsaway]

My argument in that thread was that "6 million" had no special significance, because other numbers like 5 million show up just as much, if not more. If you agree here we can move on.

This HC argument may or may not hold, but either way it fails to explain the premature six million references in 1942-1945. In particular, the claims that Hitler HAD killed six million. If you agree, then we can move on.

Are you claiming that there were way more mentions of 6 million than any other number, like 5 million?

If there were roughly this many Jews in Nazi controlled Europe, and they believed in a policy of mass extermination, then yes it would make sense for them to say this many were being killed.

[TlsMS93]

The 6 million was already mystified before any demographic census in German-occupied Europe.

[bombsaway]

The 6 million was already mystified before any demographic census in German-occupied Europe.

you can keep saying this, but there's no rational reason to place any specific importance on 6 million

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5900972/

[Stubble]

The 6 million was already mystified before any demographic census in German-occupied Europe.

you can keep saying this, but there's no rational reason to place any specific importance on 6 million

We know, yet, here we are.

It isn't about conspiracy theories and me thinking it is a magic number, it is about the belief of Stephen Weiss et al and their belief in the mystical number.

The number had been in the jewish zeitgeist because of the 'prophecy' and the 'reconcecration' of zion long before Buchenwald opened and has been promoted, regardless of fact, long after it closed.

Flatly, there were not 6,000,000 jews that perished during ww2, whatsless were 6,000,000 jews murdered, and yet, to this day, this 'mostly symbolic' number is continually promoted, taught and propped up.

If the 6,000,000 number is indeed unimportant (as it should be), then why is this fable so shamelessly promoted?

The answer is because it is part of a new jewish fable and it justifies the theft of Palestine.

[Archie]

My argument in that thread was that "6 million" had no special significance, because other numbers like 5 million show up just as much, if not more. If you agree here we can move on.

This HC argument may or may not hold, but either way it fails to explain the premature six million references in 1942-1945. In particular, the claims that Hitler HAD killed six million. If you agree, then we can move on.

Are you claiming that there were way more mentions of 6 million than any other number, like 5 million?

If there were roughly this many Jews in Nazi controlled Europe, and they believed in a policy of mass extermination, then yes it would make sense for them to say this many were being killed.

The HC argument is that for the really early pre-war examples, you could also compile examples of other numbers. This is a fair point, although this does not in my mind disprove the possibility that the six million is numerologically significant. I myself take no position on the numerology arguments as I like to stick to what I know rather than wade into obscure ancient cabalistic sources. We don't need any of that to show that the six million figure is totally bogus and was used prematurely. The numerology would just be the gravy.

As far as war-time examples, my impression from the war-time sources is that in late 1942-1943, the Zionist lobby was claiming that two million Jews HAD been already been murdered and that 4M were in peril and would be killed unless we gave them Palestine. Occasionally you will see them say 2M+5M (for a total of 7M). That is the main variant that I am aware of. By 1944, the six million was being used by the Weissmandl group in Slovakia, by Joel Brand, by Ilya Ehrenberg, and probably others. And then in 1945, you have Chaim Weizmann's circles using it. Jacob Robinson as well. Probably a bunch of others. And you get the Hoettl affidavit in late 1945. Jackson cited 5.7M "missing" early on at the IMT. Go ahead and count that as a variant if you want, but what happened there is they initially told him six million and they came back with a more "precise" number (hardly) when he asked them for sources.

[bombsaway]

The 6 million was already mystified before any demographic census in German-occupied Europe.

you can keep saying this, but there's no rational reason to place any specific importance on 6 million

We know, yet, here we are.

It isn't about conspiracy theories and me thinking it is a magic number, it is about the belief of Stephen Weiss et al and their belief in the mystical number.

The number had been in the jewish zeitgeist because of the 'prophecy' and the 'reconcecration' of zion long before Buchenwald opened and has been promoted, regardless of fact, long after it closed.

Flatly, there were not 6,000,000 jews that perished during ww2, whatsless were 6,000,000 jews murdered, and yet, to this day, this 'mostly symbolic' number is continually promoted, taught and propped up.

If the 6,000,000 number is indeed unimportant (as it should be), then why is this fable so shamelessly promoted?

The answer is because it is part of a new jewish fable and it justifies the theft of Palestine.

Sure because to you it's impossible that millions were killed. Another hypothesis is that between 5-6 million were killed, and they "rounded up" or went with the upper bound, and then people like you and Christians interested in promoting some end times narrative find what they're looking for in the bible, just like people find predictions for 9/11 or whatever. Pure silliness.

Wise didn't mention 6 million during the war I believe, he said 3.5 -4 million from what I can tell. During the war the number 5,000,000 seems to appear more (see my response to Archie)