The Keen vs Confused jew debate

[bombsaway]

This HC argument may or may not hold, but either way it fails to explain the premature six million references in 1942-1945. In particular, the claims that Hitler HAD killed six million. If you agree, then we can move on.

Are you claiming that there were way more mentions of 6 million than any other number, like 5 million?

If there were roughly this many Jews in Nazi controlled Europe, and they believed in a policy of mass extermination, then yes it would make sense for them to say this many were being killed.

The HC argument is that for the really early pre-war examples, you could also compile examples of other numbers. This is a fair point, although this does not in my mind disprove the possibility that the six million is numerologically significant. I myself take no position on the numerology arguments as I like to stick to what I know rather than wade into obscure ancient cabalistic sources. We don't need any of that to show that the six million figure is totally bogus and was used prematurely. The numerology would just be the gravy.

As far as war-time examples, my impression from the war-time sources is that in late 1942-1943, the Zionist lobby was claiming that two million Jews HAD been already been murdered and that 4M were in peril and would be killed unless we gave them Palestine. Occasionally you will see them say 2M+5M (for a total of 7M). That is the main variant that I am aware of. By 1944, the six million was being used by the Weissmandl group in Slovakia, by Joel Brand, by Ilya Ehrenberg, and probably others. And then in 1945, you have Chaim Weizmann's circles using it. Jacob Robinson as well. Probably a bunch of others. And you get the Hoettl affidavit in late 1945. Jackson cited 5.7M "missing" early on at the IMT. Go ahead and count that as a variant if you want, but what happened there is they initially told him six million and they came back with a more "precise" number (hardly) when he asked them for sources.

Same argument could be made for 5 million. 5 million has more hits between 1941 and 1945, at least in cursory search. So at best you have this narrative forming after the war.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225,00 ... =916&dpr=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=%226,00 ... =916&dpr=1

[Stubble]

Dude, you aren't going to gaslight me into thinking I invented a jewish gematria number prophecy about the return of zion.

Weiss had been talking about the 6,000,000 for decades by the time ww2 began...

What, I time travelled and told all these rabbis to parrot the 6,000,000 for 50 or so years?

[Archie]

Are you claiming that there were way more mentions of 6 million than any other number, like 5 million?

If there were roughly this many Jews in Nazi controlled Europe, and they believed in a policy of mass extermination, then yes it would make sense for them to say this many were being killed.

The HC argument is that for the really early pre-war examples, you could also compile examples of other numbers. This is a fair point, although this does not in my mind disprove the possibility that the six million is numerologically significant. I myself take no position on the numerology arguments as I like to stick to what I know rather than wade into obscure ancient cabalistic sources. We don't need any of that to show that the six million figure is totally bogus and was used prematurely. The numerology would just be the gravy.

As far as war-time examples, my impression from the war-time sources is that in late 1942-1943, the Zionist lobby was claiming that two million Jews HAD been already been murdered and that 4M were in peril and would be killed unless we gave them Palestine. Occasionally you will see them say 2M+5M (for a total of 7M). That is the main variant that I am aware of. By 1944, the six million was being used by the Weissmandl group in Slovakia, by Joel Brand, by Ilya Ehrenberg, and probably others. And then in 1945, you have Chaim Weizmann's circles using it. Jacob Robinson as well. Probably a bunch of others. And you get the Hoettl affidavit in late 1945. Jackson cited 5.7M "missing" early on at the IMT. Go ahead and count that as a variant if you want, but what happened there is they initially told him six million and they came back with a more "precise" number (hardly) when he asked them for sources.

Same argument could be made for 5 million. 5 million has more hits between 1941 and 1945, at least in cursory search. So at best you have this narrative forming after the war.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225,00 ... =916&dpr=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=%226,00 ... =916&dpr=1

My view isn't based on a "cursory search." My view is based on my large collection of primary sources which I compiled for more general purposes (i.e., not arbitrarily skewed to have any particular number). Your 5M hits appear to be totally irrelevant and out-of-context.

"The language called Yiddish is spoken by 5,000,000 Jews."

Great research, bombs.

If 5M was more common than 6M (it wasn't) then you need to explain how the 6M took hold which it undeniably did.

[TlsMS93]

In 1936, Chaim Weizmann reportedly told the Peel Commission: “It is no exaggeration to say that 6 million Jews are condemned to imprisonment in this part of the world, where they are unwanted and to whom the countries are divided into those where they are unwanted and those where they are not admitted.”

In an article published in the June 25, 1940, issue of the Palm Beach Post, Dr. Nahum Goldmann, who was the chairman of the administrative committee of the World Jewish Congress, said that “if the Nazis achieve final victory, 6,000,000 Jews in Europe will be condemned to destruction.”

The figure of 6 million appeared again on January 4, 1945, when the Jewish chief of Soviet atrocity propaganda, Ilya Ehrenburg, claimed that this was the number of Jews who died in World War II. On January 8, 1945, the New York Times published an article in which Jacob Lestchinsky, Communist correspondent for the New York Jewish Daily Forward, estimated that the Jewish population in Europe had been reduced from 9,500,000 in 1939 to 3,500,000. Lestchinsky stated: “Of the 6,000,000 European Jews who died, 5,000,000 lived in the countries under Hitler’s occupation.”

Immediately after the end of the war in Europe, an article appeared in the Pittsburgh Press on May 13, 1945, entitled “Nazis Destroy Six Million Jews.” In June 1945, some Zionist leaders were also able to claim that 6 million Jews had died during the war. These Zionist leaders made this statement even though the chaos in Europe at the time made any definitive demographic study impossible.

The incredible coincidence in this common denominator is that there were already many individuals spreading this for a long time, people with common interests.

[Archie]

Dude, you aren't going to gaslight me into thinking I invented a jewish gematria number prophecy about the return of zion.

Weiss had been talking about the 6,000,000 for decades by the time ww2 began...

What, I time travelled and told all these rabbis to parrot the 6,000,000 for 50 or so years?

Ya know, I am happy to let bombsaway and Jeff and these types continue to make these arguments because this nonsense will fall 100% flat with normies. Everyone has heard "six million" about six million times by now, in school, in the media, etc, and so this outrageous retcon just isn't going to fly. If they stopped using it today, they could probably retcon it in a couple generations, but to argue it right now while it is still fresh in memory is just absurd. And yes it is gaslighting.

bombsaway: "I have no idea where you holocaust deniers are coming up with this six million stuff. There have always been a range of careful estimates."

[bombsaway]

The HC argument is that for the really early pre-war examples, you could also compile examples of other numbers. This is a fair point, although this does not in my mind disprove the possibility that the six million is numerologically significant. I myself take no position on the numerology arguments as I like to stick to what I know rather than wade into obscure ancient cabalistic sources. We don't need any of that to show that the six million figure is totally bogus and was used prematurely. The numerology would just be the gravy.

As far as war-time examples, my impression from the war-time sources is that in late 1942-1943, the Zionist lobby was claiming that two million Jews HAD been already been murdered and that 4M were in peril and would be killed unless we gave them Palestine. Occasionally you will see them say 2M+5M (for a total of 7M). That is the main variant that I am aware of. By 1944, the six million was being used by the Weissmandl group in Slovakia, by Joel Brand, by Ilya Ehrenberg, and probably others. And then in 1945, you have Chaim Weizmann's circles using it. Jacob Robinson as well. Probably a bunch of others. And you get the Hoettl affidavit in late 1945. Jackson cited 5.7M "missing" early on at the IMT. Go ahead and count that as a variant if you want, but what happened there is they initially told him six million and they came back with a more "precise" number (hardly) when he asked them for sources.

Same argument could be made for 5 million. 5 million has more hits between 1941 and 1945, at least in cursory search. So at best you have this narrative forming after the war.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225,00 ... =916&dpr=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=%226,00 ... =916&dpr=1

My view isn't based on a "cursory search." My view is based on my large collection of primary sources which I compiled for more general purposes (i.e., not arbitrarily skewed to have any particular number). Your 5M hits appear to be totally irrelevant and out-of-context.

"The language called Yiddish is spoken by 5,000,000 Jews."

Great research, bombs.

If 5M was more common than 6M (it wasn't) then you need to explain how the 6M took hold which it undeniably did.

If you look at the first page, they're all about 5 million Jews being killed. That was to show there are more results.

If you want to prove this point (that 6 million was more significant than 5) during the war, do the research and show that figure being used markedly more. You're just assuming that it is. I did a cursory search.

[bombsaway]

Dude, you aren't going to gaslight me into thinking I invented a jewish gematria number prophecy about the return of zion.

Weiss had been talking about the 6,000,000 for decades by the time ww2 began...

What, I time travelled and told all these rabbis to parrot the 6,000,000 for 50 or so years?

Where? I just saw him mention 5,000,000, in the google search for that number (first link)

You have to show that 6,000,000 occupied a special place for him, otherwise you are just imagining things.

[bombsaway]

The incredible coincidence in this common denominator is that there were already many individuals spreading this for a long time, people with common interests.

It would be an incredible coincidence only if numbers like 5 million weren't used very much. Again, 6 million is just the amount of Jews in central and Eastern Europe, where they were facing persecution or under despotic governments.

[bombsaway]

Dude, you aren't going to gaslight me into thinking I invented a jewish gematria number prophecy about the return of zion.

Weiss had been talking about the 6,000,000 for decades by the time ww2 began...

What, I time travelled and told all these rabbis to parrot the 6,000,000 for 50 or so years?

Ya know, I am happy to let bombsaway and Jeff and these types continue to make these arguments because this nonsense will fall 100% flat with normies. Everyone has heard "six million" about six million times by now, in school, in the media, etc, and so this outrageous retcon just isn't going to fly. If they stopped using it today, they could probably retcon it in a couple generations, but to argue it right now while it is still fresh in memory is just absurd. And yes it is gaslighting.

bombsaway: "I have no idea where you holocaust deniers are coming up with this six million stuff. There have always been a range of careful estimates."

Where did I talk about the number not being important post-war? My argument is that it had no special significance until effort started being put into making estimates or investigating how many had died.

[SanityCheck]

But what is the connection to the Holocaust? The Holocaust is not believed to have happened on the basis of sensationalistic reporting thousands of miles away. For you to link this to the "hoax" narrative, you have to show that evidence was being fabricated (witness testimony/documents).

This is the crux of the problem. The premature 6M spiel has been around for decades and seems to entice a few people in or provide another talking-point for revisionists. But it's never been connected to the more specific claims.

On the contrary, overestimates of camps were entirely rife in the 1940s, something revisionists also like to harp on about, while ignoring how these either referred to people (like the Auschwitz 4M) or were very early reports and when added up come to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than 6M, before being revised downwards pretty rapidly.

Plus the numbers for different countries had distnct ceilings based on prewar censuses and population figures; one could not kill 4 million Polish Jews when the highest estimate based on population growth for 1939 was 3.5 million, and it was obvious there were at least some survivors. It was quite clear already in 1944-46 that Polish Jews didn't just die in camps, and over time the breakdowns by town and region and the knowledge of documents only became more detailed - that is the evidence which has not been shown to have been fabricated, through to the Hoefle telegram in the 2000s.

The same is true of the pre-1939 USSR and Baltic states, of Hungary, of the Reich and the rest of Europe.

There's no evidence anyone raised a death toll about a component part in order to meet the magic 6M total. They couldn't possibly have coordinated this, either. But this is the insinuation in the premature 6M spiel.

[Stubble]

June 11th of 1900 he said 6,000,000 jews were 'living, breathing, suffering arguments for Zionism', for example.

JUNE 11, 1900 - NEW YORK TIMES - page 7 - Rabbi Wise's Address

'Oh, but, it wasn't significant to him' you smirk and say...

This rabbinical prophecy about a state for the jewish people being established in 1948 and 6,000,000 jews vanishing, this is just some Christian antisemitic fever dream you say...

No, it isn't.

That the 6,000,000 number was established before the war and just happened to work out to be what is taught and propagated is just some wild cohencidence you say...

No, it isn't.

Anyone not trying to excuse this away and sweep it under the rug can see it for what it is, a convenient and useful lie.

50+ years of bleating about the 6,000,000 before ww2, all lies, every time, but, as if by magic, this one time, when it had to be, it was true, cremations and all, for the whole burnt offering, to give zealots the pretext, even if only in their own mind, to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and they wasted no time at all in getting the ball rolling on it.

Of note, if the jews at Auschwitz were to be an offering to sky daddy, someone should have told the Germans so they could have built the facility in a high place rather than basically a swamp...how was sky daddy supposed to know the jews had been burned if their 'sweet odor' didn't 'fill his nostrils'.

Perhaps drums should have been beaten as well, at least when the babies were being unloaded with pitchforks into the lakes and rivers of fire at Auschwitz...

I reiterate, 6,000,000 jews did not die in ww2, and most certainly 6,000,000 jews were not murdered. The number is a jewish fable, not unlike the geysers of blood, the rivers of fire and the 4,000,000,000 killed by the Romans, wrapped up in religious texts and placed on open air pyres alive.

These numbers in these fables are gematria, either that or jews are very, very poor at counting.

[bombsaway]

Stubble, so what?

There's "bleating" about 5 million, 4 million.

you are doing this https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5900972/

[Stubble]

Well by golly gee bombs, there are people claiming lower death tolls, fortunately we didn't need to investigate that at all, because 6,000,000 was 'proven at Nuremberg (tm)'.

Again, if the 6,000,000 figure is as arbitrary and unimportant as you say, and I'm just some fucking nut bag, then why is the 6,000,000 figure, 'mostly symbolic in nature', so paramountly important?

This really deserves it's own thread.

To keen and chat jew pt, I apologize, this was supposed to be a thread for your debate.

Seriously, can we end the thread Jack and move this to a holiest of holies 6,000,000 thread?

[bombsaway]

Again, if the 6,000,000 figure is as arbitrary and unimportant as you say, and I'm just some fucking nut bag, then why is the 6,000,000 figure, 'mostly symbolic in nature', so paramountly important?

Because the real figure is between 5 and 6 and they rounded up. I'm not sure how important it is considering many orthodox historians give lower estimates and are fine, eg Hilberg and Codoh's own Sanitycheck .

It's people, like yourself, who think the number is overinflated by 5-10x or maybe even more, that are responsible for the pearl clutching that goes on regarding this figure. Nobody cares if you give an estimate closer to 5 million.

[Stubble]

This thread jack really should stop bombs, and we should really move this to a 6,000,000 thread.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, preferably in a new thread, but, didn't you use Hilberg saying 6,000,000 in an argument the other day? I mean, just a few weeks ago even.

Now it is 'Hilberg used a lower number'.

So far as how many jews died in the shoah, I'm not done counting, hell, I still haven't stopped finding Hungarian jews.