The Korherr Report

[bombsaway]

So to sum up Korherr lists 2 million Jews evacuated from by the Germans from "non-Russian Europe" and an additional 600k from the Russian territories, which would apparently be Belarus, Ukraine, and the Baltics (though these figures are incomplete according to korherr, with obvious gaps, eg they don't include Romania). So total at least 2.6 million outgoing from Europe , through German actions, placed somewhere in Russia proper. If you claim this could include Ukraine and Belarus, you have to add to that population the mass amount of Jews who were already there, which compounds the problem. At a minimum you're looking at 2.5 - 3 million Jews being settled in a certain area in Russia in 1943. So the question is where?

Stubble has been looking for Hungarian Jews but this is quantitatively a 10x larger problem. The reason you guys are viewed as laughing stocks is the zero evidence here, when evidence for mass killing operations (and circumstantial evidence of an overarching policy) is indicated in all sorts of different ways

For comparative purposes we can look at this eavesdropped conversation I posted a few days ago to support my assertion that the British knew. It's minor evidence, I think hardly used in the literature

NEUFFER: What will they say when they find our graves in POLAND?
The OGPU213 can’t have done anything worse than that. I myself have
seen a convey at LUDOWICE(?)214 near MINSK; I must say it was
frightful, a horrible sight. There were lorries full of men, women and
children–quite small children. It is ghastly, this picture. The women, the
little children who were, of course, absolutely unsuspecting–frightful! Of
course, I didn’t watch while they were being murdered. German police
stood about with tommy-guns, and–do you know what they had there?
Lithuanians, or fellows like that, in the brown uniform,215 did it. The
German Jews were also sent to the MINSK district, and were gradually
killed off, so far as they survived the other treatment. By treatment I
mean housing and food and so on. It was done like this: when Jews were
taken away from FRANKFURT–they were only notified immediately
beforehand–they were allowed to take only a little with them, a hundred
marks, otherwise nothing, and then the hundred marks would be
demanded from them at the station to pay the fare.216 But these things are
so well known–if that ever gets known in the world at large–that’s why I
was so surprised that we got so frightfully worked up over the KATYN
case!217
BASSENGE: Yes.
NEUFFER: For that’s a trifle in comparison to what we have done there.

Neuffer was a high ranking army officer (a luftwaffe general) and was in Minsk in the direct vicinity of massacres. Not only this but his reporting explicitly points to a policy (in bold) that the German Jews sent there (mostly in 41) were either dying due to conditions in the ghettos (insufficient housing and food) or being shot. This is affirmed in Kube's report of 1942, which talks about the blanket killing of non-employable German Jews and their planned further total elimination after the labor situation stabilizes.

If revisionists are going to claim the evacuation of Jews out of Europe really did happen as per Korherr, the only evidenced explanation for what happened to them once they arrived was that they were "killed off". There is again zero evidence, witness, documentary, archeological of 2.5-3 million Jews being maintained in this area. All the ghettos were closed down or massively depopulated. Minsk ghetto, which at one point held 80-100k, was closed in 1943.

[Stubble]

Revisionists have jews flooding Europe from Poland after ww2.

Exterminationists have 3.5 Olympic sized swimming pools worth of grave space at treblinka for twice the population of liverpool worth of 'holocaust victims'.

Who has the less tenable position Bombsaway?

I'm outside of my footing here and am not equipped to argue the particulars here.

I'm going to keep counting Hungarian jews.

I encourage others to figure out how many jews the 'REFUGEES' files are referring to as a flood and to quantify it. I also encourage others to look at the train stops and how many disembarked before reaching the Reinhardt camps and to look at the infrastructure past them and from where their labor pool was drawn.

If nobody does, I'll get there. Eventually I'd like to audit the camp system and get an actual headcount both in and out.

[bombsaway]

Revisionists have jews flooding Europe from Poland after ww2.

Exterminationists have 3.5 Olympic sized swimming pools worth of grave space at treblinka for twice the population of liverpool worth of 'holocaust victims'.

Who has the less tenable position Bombsaway?

I'm outside of my footing here and am not equipped to argue the particulars here.

I'm going to keep counting Hungarian jews.

I encourage others to figure out how many jews the 'REFUGEES' files are referring to as a flood and to quantify it. I also encourage others to look at the train stops and how many disembarked before reaching the Reinhardt camps and to look at the infrastructure past them and from where their labor pool was drawn.

If nobody does, I'll get there. Eventually I'd like to audit the camp system and get an actual headcount both in and out.

3.5 olympic swimming pools max? Lol I think that's what you want to believe they believe.

According to Romanov’s measurements shown in Image 7.17, the "Death Camp"
sector on Bay’s Figure 14 has an area of (40,500 + 1,380 =) 41,880 m² (Laponder: 41,390
m²), whereas the area of the "Receiving Camp" is 14,190 m² (Laponder: 19,930 m²) and the
area of the "Living Camp" is 38,290 m² (Laponder: 45,850 m²). The sum of these three areas
inside Treblinka’s inner perimeter is 94,360 m² (Laponder: 107,170 m²). We see that two
researchers (Alex Bay and Peter Laponder) reached very similar results independently of
each other, especially as concerns the size of the "Death Camp" sector.
Bay projected 9 areas representing mass graves with an area of 50 x 25 meters into the
"Death Camp" sector just to show that that the same could comfortably fit into the "Death
Camp."

Soil Removed from the Graves
The surface area of these projected graves is 9 x 1,250 = 11,250
m², and their volume was calculated by Bay as being 9 x 8,502 = 76,518 cubic meters. The
grave space accordingly required to bury the ca. 721,555 Jews murdered at Treblinka in
1942, with the density of ca. 12 corpses per cubic meter assumed by Bay, was somewhat
smaller: 721,555 ÷ 12 = 60,130 cubic meters, corresponding to a surface area of 60,130 ÷
76,518 x 11,250 = 8,841 m² (roughly 21-22 % of the "Death Camp" sector’s entire area).

This is so elementary dude, it took me less than 2 minutes to look this up with the help of an LLM. You can debate the numbers of course but you are dead wrong in your assessment, as per usual (no offense, and I hope you had a good time with my mom).

https://dn790001.ca.archive.org/0/items ... ersies.pdf

Oh those refugees, you got a source for that?

[Stubble]

I was going by the GPR and LIDAR. We can talk about that in one of the treblinka threads though.

Yes, source is the REFUGEES files. I'll go look up which reel and which frame and get a document number later. I may have provided the document number for some of the memoranda concerning the influx and its destabilizing nature in the research section of the forum in Archie's thread.

As a married man, it wasn't so much my fun with your mom [insert derogatory banter] etc.

[bombsaway]

Were these Soviet or Western sources? How many Jews do they indicate came back?

[Stubble]

840.48 refugees/ 8-346

Here is one talking about Vienna being flooded with jews and it creating some angst.

Let me get you a link for the reel, it isn't available as a single, so, you will have to scroll.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/301659429

[bombsaway]

840.48 refugees/ 8-346

Here is one talking about Vienna being flooded with jews and it creating some angst.

Let me get you a link for the reel, it isn't available as a single, so, you will have to scroll.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/301659429

I can't find this description of "flooded" but Vienna was not in the Soviet Zone. You're probably not familiar but the revisionist theory about resettlement is there was tremendous witness control by the Soviets (parallel to them suppressing the voluminous documentary evidence of resettlement). If a substantial amount of the resettled Jews made it to the west it's inevitable that we would be hearing about it. You've shot yourself in the foot here.

[Stubble]

Again, I'm off my footing as this isn't where I have been grinding my face against the stone as it were.

More diligence is due on my end specifically on this point of contention.

There is obviously flack here however, which indicates a target, so, I suppose I will adjust my path so I can drop some bombs here.

Recommended reading from both sides of the fence is welcome, and i will glean the REFUGEES files again.

In the mean time, i am going to duck out of this thread and leave it to more experienced hands. And lick my wounds a bit.

[bombsaway]

Again, I'm off my footing as this isn't where I have been grinding my face against the stone as it were.

More diligence is due on my end specifically on this point of contention.

There is obviously flack here however, which indicates a target, so, I suppose I will adjust my path so I can drop some bombs here.

Recommended reading from both sides of the fence is welcome, and i will glean the REFUGEES files again.

In the mean time, i am going to duck out of this thread and leave it to more experienced hands. And lick my wounds a bit.

You know I'll give you credit because of all the posters here, you seem to most acknowledge the 'no evidence' thing as A Problem That Must Be Resolved. Most think it is of minor importance, but I think the harsh truth is there is no rational reason to believe a mass event occurred if it cannot be in any way defined, comprehended, the faintest shape of it made out. There is more reason to believe in Adam and Eve than Resettlement. You need a better story. What do you think of the words of Neuffer?

[Archie]

Again half, that is a quarter of the total Jewish population of 1937, has fled to other countries.

So he claims a drop of 4M (perhaps 4.5M) which may or may not be correct. Even if it is right, at the end he says about half of this is Jews who "fled to other countries." There is no reasonable interpretation of this document that would be consistent with 4.5M EXECUTIONS by this time. Even if we were to assume "evacuation" was a synonym for murder, this would be only half the necessary number. You would have to further assume that "fled to other countries" was also "code language" and that the entire population drop was due to murder.

You should check the translation on this. Challen's translation (he is a revisionist) says "About half of these Jews or 'a quarter of the total European Jewish population of 1937 have flowed to other continents." so this is not separate from the "evacuation numbers" but actually the evacuation numbers which is around 2 million

https://codoh.com/library/document/rich ... s-reports/

We also have this: "In addition, only a portion of the deaths of
Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories are shown in these figures,
where~s deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not
included at all"

It's considered that well over a million were shot, then you have ghetto and labor related deaths which Korherr kind of counts anyway. So you're actually pretty close to 3.9 million

-He claims there has been an overall net population decrease of 4M.
-About half of this drop (i.e., about 2M) is from Jews who fled to other countries (I don't see why "flowed" in your other translation would change the interpretation).

He says earlier that the 1937 population was 10M. A quarter of this would be 2.5M.

Again half, that is a quarter of the total Jewish population of 1937, has fled to other countries.

The total Jewish population of the world was estimated at 17 million in 1937. Of these, over 10 million were in Europe.

For your story to work, you need 4,500,000 deaths (nearly all murders) by the end of the 1942. This means you have to argue that they killed even more than what Korherr gives as the overall population decrease even though he says lots of them simply left. Even many orthodox scholars would admit that a non-trivial number of Jews escaped into Soviet territory.

Your other point was about the part where it says "it was not possible to count all the deaths of the Soviet – Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories while those in the remaining European part of Russia and on the front have not been included at all." You take this as an excuse to tack on an extra million deaths to try to make up your big shortfall. I have two main problems with this. For one, Korherr includes a number of 633,300 for the Russian territories and the Baltic areas and you are implicitly already assuming all those people were murdered. Second, there are all those Einsatzgruppen reports which were being sent to the higher ups, so they should have had a good idea of the number of executions in the East. If you want to latch onto "some deaths not included" and use that to throw in another million on top of the 633K, you are welcome to believe that if you want, but don't expect to revisionists to find such leaps convincing. And you would also need to explain why Korherr and Himmler were ignorant of or disregarded the Einsatzgruppen reporting. Obviously they the Germans would not be able accurately track all deaths in the East. Jews fighting in the Red Army for instance. Note also that the number Korherr gives for Russia (4M) is rather high. Hilberg's prewar number for the USSR (including the Baltics) is 3,020,000.

[bombsaway]

-He claims there has been an overall net population decrease of 4M.
-About half of this drop (i.e., about 2M) is from Jews who fled to other countries (I don't see why "flowed" in your other translation would change the interpretation).

He says earlier that the 1937 population was 10M. A quarter of this would be 2.5M.

Again half, that is a quarter of the total Jewish population of 1937, has fled to other countries.

The total Jewish population of the world was estimated at 17 million in 1937. Of these, over 10 million were in Europe.

For your story to work, you need 4,500,000 deaths (nearly all murders) by the end of the 1942. This means you have to argue that they killed even more than what Korherr gives as the overall population decrease even though he says lots of them simply left. Even many orthodox scholars would admit that a non-trivial number of Jews escaped into Soviet territory.

Your other point was about the part where it says "it was not possible to count all the deaths of the Soviet – Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories while those in the remaining European part of Russia and on the front have not been included at all." You take this as an excuse to tack on an extra million deaths to try to make up your big shortfall. I have two main problems with this. For one, Korherr includes a number of 633,300 for the Russian territories and the Baltic areas and you are implicitly already assuming all those people were murdered. Second, there are all those Einsatzgruppen reports which were being sent to the higher ups, so they should have had a good idea of the number of executions in the East. If you want to latch onto "some deaths not included" and use that to throw in another million on top of the 633K, you are welcome to believe that if you want, but don't expect to revisionists to find such leaps convincing. And you would also need to explain why Korherr and Himmler were ignorant of or disregarded the Einsatzgruppen reporting. Obviously they the Germans would not be able accurately track all deaths in the East. Jews fighting in the Red Army for instance. Note also that the number Korherr gives for Russia (4M) is rather high. Hilberg's prewar number for the USSR (including the Baltics) is 3,020,000.

Fled means they did it on their own, flowed could mean that but also that they were evacuated. Korherr lists 2.5 million evacuated. I don't assume that they were killed from this document (though a previous version used 'special treatement' instead of 'transported to the Russian East'. There's some plausible ambiguity here then, not so about the numbers. What Korherr presents is a minimum. He missed Romania where some estimates have 300k dying. The million on top of the 633k is thus not accurate, and Korherr also doesn't precisely account for ghetto deaths, though they seem substantial. You have to add that to this 2.5 million figure, they are considered Holocaust deaths. "About half of these Jews or 'a quarter of the total European Jewish population of 1937 have flowed to other continents." This would mean that the remaining half died.

As for why Korherr didn't get SS police figures, maybe this was more about what was happening in "Europe". I don't know but it doesn't preclude the possibility they were killed.

So what of the 2.5 million Korherr lists as evacuated? Do you believe that really happened? What do you make of Nueffer's statement? What happened to the Jews sent east?

[Nazgul]

it doesn't preclude the possibility they were killed.

Another "holocaust of the gaps" argument.

So what of the 2.5 million Korherr lists as evacuated? Do you believe that really happened? What do you make of Nueffer's statement? What happened to the Jews sent east?

Of course it happened. Jewish labour camps, still being discovered, no names known for most. Reports of returns.

[borjastick]

Why is there some difficulty understanding that people who have moved to another 'continent' does not mean that those who chose to stay or couldn't leave for whatever reason are dead?

The word 'evacuate' is not difficult to understand though it could have various levels of weight to it in different languages. Eg. in French the word question is 'demand' which suggest something far stronger than a simple request or basic question or enquiry.

In the second world war youngsters including my mother were 'evacuated' away from larger towns and cities into the countryside for safety. The were not killed.

[bombsaway]

Why is there some difficulty understanding that people who have moved to another 'continent' does not mean that those who chose to stay or couldn't leave for whatever reason are dead?

The word 'evacuate' is not difficult to understand though it could have various levels of weight to it in different languages. Eg. in French the word question is 'demand' which suggest something far stronger than a simple request or basic question or enquiry.

In the second world war youngsters including my mother were 'evacuated' away from larger towns and cities into the countryside for safety. The were not killed.

If it was a hundred million people that had been supposedly evacuated and maintained in an area without a single piece of information (even a rumor) being generated by this mass population movement, would you believe it happened?

[joshk246]

In the second world war youngsters including my mother were 'evacuated' away from larger towns and cities into the countryside for safety. The were not killed.

My whole family had to be evacuated into the countryside as well, there were numerous allegations of sexual/physical abuse and other mistreatment by families who took in the evacuated.

Where’s our reparations?