Forensic Chemistry

[ConfusedJew]

Just so I am clear in the argument going forward, you seem to zoning into the idea that the lack of iron was the determining factor. I have not heard it argued before that either the iron was not present (?) or suitable (?) for PB formation. This is strange as we have examples of PB formation in concrete at Majdanek in Barrack 41.



Mr Stubble above has produced a photo of the evident Prussian Blue formation in concrete due to HcN exposure so really this argument is boxed out.

Here's what I am seeing and we can zoom in on these factors.

I am assuming that the picture of Majdanek was a delousing chamber. Can you show me data for what materials were in the wall there so that I can objectively compare?

Crematoria II & III were reinforced concrete with interior plaster or lime wash coating. They were underground morgues (Leichenkeller 1) that were converted into gas chambers. The walls were coated in lime plaster, which is alkaline but lacks ferrous iron. The plaster coating limited exposure of reactive iron compounds, and the walls were smoothed and sealed—poor for cyanide absorption or reaction.

Crematoria IV & V were brick with cement mortar, possibly some unplastered areas. Some walls may have been bare brick, but others were limewashed or cement-rendered. This provided limited exposed ferrous iron.

Bunkers I & II were early makeshift gas chambers which were converted farmhouses with basic brick or stone walls. The interior finish was likely whitewashed or plastered so the walls were not chemically optimized for long-term cyanide retention or Prussian blue formation.

The walls of the homicidal gas chambers—typically plastered concrete or limewashed brick—were lacking in reactive ferrous iron, and not chemically favorable for Prussian blue formation. Maybe these are wrong but this is what ChatGPT is telling me so please address these directly.

Green also mentions that the delousing chambers used 16,000 ppm hydrogen cyanide for hours or even days to kill lice.
Homicidal chambers used only ~300 ppm for 15–30 minutes to kill humans. Prussian blue formation is slow and requires prolonged exposure to high cyanide concentrations. The much greater exposure time and concentrations in delousing chambers allowed for the formation of Prussian blue. Homicidal chambers simply did not operate under those conditions.

So to prove your point, and then we can move on, you need to show that there was (1) reactive iron in the homicidal chambers and (2) 300 ppm for 30 minutes over multiple cycles is enough to form Prussian Blue.

If you think that they used more than 300 ppm for more than 30 minutes then feel free to show that too because that would strengthen your argument.

[HansHill]

Just so I am clear in the argument going forward, you seem to zoning into the idea that the lack of iron was the determining factor. I have not heard it argued before that either the iron was not present (?) or suitable (?) for PB formation. This is strange as we have examples of PB formation in concrete at Majdanek in Barrack 41.



Mr Stubble above has produced a photo of the evident Prussian Blue formation in concrete due to HcN exposure so really this argument is boxed out.

Here's what I am seeing and we can zoom in on these factors.

I am assuming that the picture of Majdanek was a delousing chamber. Can you show me data for what materials were in the wall there so that I can objectively compare?

Correct, Barack 42 in Majdanek was indeed a delousing chamber using Zyklon B. However, it is claimed that people were also gassed to death in here using Carbon Monoxide. If this is striking you as odd, then welcome to the club - but this is the official story. This image below from Wikipedia shows the sign post, which verifies what I am saying.

Crematoria II & III were reinforced concrete with interior plaster or lime wash coating. They were underground morgues (Leichenkeller 1) that were converted into gas chambers. The walls were coated in lime plaster, which is alkaline but lacks ferrous iron. The plaster coating limited exposure of reactive iron compounds, and the walls were smoothed and sealed—poor for cyanide absorption or reaction.

In the image above from Majdanek, the sign post confirms the construction was concrete. And the concrete is a perfectly hospitable environment for the PB to reside. Likewise in the image below, Rudolf documents the materials he took his samples from, the screenshot below shows two samples from concrete and two samples from plaster were obtained:



Regarding absorption, we can consult the expert literature for the rates of absorption in building materials, and the various building regulations and determine these properties.



When we review the material, both concrete and lime mortar are more porous than brick, not less. Which is the opposite to what you are arguing.

Likewise the diffusion properties of various building materials are known, and both lime plaster and concrete have higher diffusion co-efficients than brick when compared:



All of this builds us a compelling picture that the environment of the homicidial gas chambers is even more hospitable to PB formation than the delousing chambers on every metric you can possibly conjure.

Crematoria IV & V were brick with cement mortar, possibly some unplastered areas. Some walls may have been bare brick, but others were limewashed or cement-rendered. This provided limited exposed ferrous iron.

Bunkers I & II were early makeshift gas chambers which were converted farmhouses with basic brick or stone walls. The interior finish was likely whitewashed or plastered so the walls were not chemically optimized for long-term cyanide retention or Prussian blue formation.

The walls of the homicidal gas chambers—typically plastered concrete or limewashed brick—were lacking in reactive ferrous iron, and not chemically favorable for Prussian blue formation. Maybe these are wrong but this is what ChatGPT is telling me so please address these directly.

see above

Green also mentions that the delousing chambers used 16,000 ppm hydrogen cyanide for hours or even days to kill lice.
Homicidal chambers used only ~300 ppm for 15–30 minutes to kill humans. Prussian blue formation is slow and requires prolonged exposure to high cyanide concentrations. The much greater exposure time and concentrations in delousing chambers allowed for the formation of Prussian blue. Homicidal chambers simply did not operate under those conditions.

So to prove your point, and then we can move on, you need to show that there was (1) reactive iron in the homicidal chambers and (2) 300 ppm for 30 minutes over multiple cycles is enough to form Prussian Blue.

If you think that they used more than 300 ppm for more than 30 minutes then feel free to show that too because that would strengthen your argument.

Yes the concentration argument will be next up, but I'll address that separetley and give you time to review the above and concede or reply on the properties-of-iron argument as you see fit, before moving on.

[Fred Ziffel]

How does pee, poop and blood make it to the upper walls where you would have to clean it?
I live on earth and when I do either of these, the direction of flow is downwards. is gravity a new thing?
for females their waste discharge orifices are such it runs down their leg.
In a panic everyone would start throwing their shit like a gorilla?
See photo, note the level of the man's crotch to the mid to upper walls and ceiling

I included the GCs at Majdanek. these two rooms side by side have a shared wall. one should not show one without the other
Neither Majdanek B41 or B42 had gas chambers for humans, period! The photo above is "A" Chamber, NOY Barrack 42
Here is why CO was not used in these two rooms: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6gsf1sn7 ... iqa63&dl=0

[Stubble]

To be 100% clear, the LK's were of a mainly brick construction, with the floor and the ceiling being concrete, but the walls were constructed with red bricks.

The walls may have been faced with morter or plaster, but I have not seen much evidence of that. I will grant that the delousing chambers were faced with plaster, but, that didn't inhibit iron blue formation. I wouldn't assume if they faced the LK's with plaster, they used a special plaster.



I reiterate, the LK's were constructed of 1) red brick, 2) concrete and 3) plaster. These are all materials that are demonstrated to form iron blue in the presence of hydrogen cyanide.

Since you admit bricks form iron blue, why hasn't anyone found it, especially in the red brick air extraction channels?

[Nessie]

To be 100% clear, the LK's were of a mainly brick construction, with the floor and the ceiling being concrete, but the walls were constructed with red bricks.

The walls may have been faced with morter or plaster, but I have not seen much evidence of that. I will grant that the delousing chambers were faced with plaster, but, that didn't inhibit iron blue formation. I wouldn't assume if they faced the LK's with plaster, they used a special plaster.



I reiterate, the LK's were constructed of 1) red brick, 2) concrete and 3) plaster. These are all materials that are demonstrated to form iron blue in the presence of hydrogen cyanide.

Since you admit bricks form iron blue, why hasn't anyone found it, especially in the red brick air extraction channels?

Only Krema the walls of can be closely examined. But, it was converted to an air raid shelter in 1944 and then reconstructed as a gas chamber in the 1950s. It was also the least used of the gas chambers. That can explain the lack of obvious Prussian blue.

There is no possibility of a close examination of Krema II and III as shown in the photo above. Kremas IV and V and the two farm house bunker gas chambers, were completely demolished. For all you know, Prussian blue had started to form and become visible, prior to the demolitions.

As for why, has it not, allegedly started to form in the ventilation channels, again, for all you know, it has, or it did, or, fast moving airflow prevents the formation.

That you will not be satisfied with my answers, is not evidence to prove those buildings were never used as gas chambers. The arguments, in lieu of evidence, have no evidential value. You cannot argue that the Kremas were not used as gas chambers, you have to evidence they were not used, with contemporaneous evidence, as to the usage of the buildings, when the camp was in operation.

[HansHill]

To be 100% clear, the LK's were of a mainly brick construction, with the floor and the ceiling being concrete, but the walls were constructed with red bricks.

The walls may have been faced with morter or plaster, but I have not seen much evidence of that. I will grant that the delousing chambers were faced with plaster, but, that didn't inhibit iron blue formation. I wouldn't assume if they faced the LK's with plaster, they used a special plaster.



I reiterate, the LK's were constructed of 1) red brick, 2) concrete and 3) plaster. These are all materials that are demonstrated to form iron blue in the presence of hydrogen cyanide.

Since you admit bricks form iron blue, why hasn't anyone found it, especially in the red brick air extraction channels?

Mr Stubble is correct as always. We are fortunate that Mr Rudolf took documentary evidence of the locations he chose for his samples.

The photo below corresponds to the "concrete" samples i provided earlier which are samples 1 & 2.



Regarding the plaster, there is no "maybe" about it - samples 3 and 4 per Rudolf were plaster, and he confirms the interior of the walls are plastered:

[TlsMS93]

The burden of proof is not on the one who denies it.

[HansHill]

Mr Nessie is of course wrong as always

There is no possibility of a close examination of Krema II and III

Close examination does not get any closer than this:

[bombsaway]

Now now, to be fair I haven't dismissed it (yet), i've simply asked for more details.

So walk me through it, i would assume the situation was something like this:

- Gassing finishes
- Gas is ventilated via extraction mechanism
- Sonderkommandos enter to remove the bodies
- Bleach / Ammonia is applied to walls & ceiling to remove the blood / urine / feces etc
- Room is prepped for next load of victims

Am i close?

Yeah though according to gpt if ammonia/bleach is used it raises overall ph throughout the room. Nothing would have to be applied to the ceiling to prevent staining/absorption there.

Got it.

And how do the Majdanek gas chambers fit into this gas-bleach-prep model?

How do you think Majdanek chambers got those stains? They were used for delousing right?

Btw, despite being subjected to ultra high levels of HCN with no ventilation, the walls are not totally blue. Why is that?

[Nessie]

Where is Rudolf, here inside Krema II;



On this aerial photo of Krema II.

[Archie]

You know, I remember reading a lot of things from contemporary accounts, there was an orchestra, then a speech, then the people went in to the undressing area, then an 'ambulance' pulled up and ran its engine, then people got on the roof and dropped the pellets in, then 5 minutes later, the sonderkommando grabbed everyone, ran them up to the muffles, crammed 8 people in each one, and the cremation was done in 15 minutes per cycle.
[...]

You must be new here. I guess you are not familiar with bombsaway's buffet-style approach to source criticism which is to hunt through testimonies looking for a stray claim that is convenient for whatever just-so story he's spinning at the moment.

[HansHill]

How do you think Majdanek chambers got those stains? They were used for delousing right?

Btw, despite being subjected to ultra high levels of HCN with no ventilation, the walls are not totally blue. Why is that?

The walls were stained blue due to HCN exposure from delousing. The signpost here tells us zyklon was present (to kill lice)



We are told this room had a dual purpose. Gassing victims with CO and delousing clothing with zyklon.

So i am asking you: following a CO gassing, and the theoretical bleach were applied to the walls and ceiling, we should expect the bleach to inhibit the Prussian Blue formation.

But that's not what we observe, is it?

So to ask again - how does your gas-bleach-prep hypothesis work in this instance

[bombsaway]

How do you think Majdanek chambers got those stains? They were used for delousing right?

Btw, despite being subjected to ultra high levels of HCN with no ventilation, the walls are not totally blue. Why is that?

The walls were stained blue due to HCN exposure from delousing. The signpost here tells us zyklon was present (to kill lice)



We are told this room had a dual purpose. Gassing victims with CO and delousing clothing with zyklon.

So i am asking you: following a CO gassing, and the theoretical bleach were applied to the walls and ceiling, we should expect the bleach to inhibit the Prussian Blue formation.

But that's not what we observe, is it?

Again, according to the AI, alkaline based cleaners or bleach wouldn't have to be applied the ceiling to effect ph levels there.

Within the orthodox frame, it makes sense that chambers like those in Auschwitz would be regularly and strenuously cleaned before use. But why clean chambers being used for delousing?

So to ask again - how does your gas-bleach-prep hypothesis work in this instance

It doesn't, the delousing chambers weren't cleaned.

[HansHill]

Again, according to the AI, alkaline based cleaners or bleach wouldn't have to be applied the ceiling to effect ph levels there.

Within the orthodox frame, it makes sense that chambers like those in Auschwitz would be regularly and strenuously cleaned before use. But why clean chambers being used for delousing?

So to ask again - how does your gas-bleach-prep hypothesis work in this instance

It doesn't, the delousing chambers weren't cleaned.

Read the signpost in my image Bombsaway. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are following multiple threads simultaneously.

[Fred Ziffel]

No holes in the ceiling of the blue stained room to drop in Zyklon B

How did this blue get here outside of the door "A" Chamber?