bombsaway wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 3:59 am
the AI, without any leading questions, states that Prussian Blue would be unlikely to form in a room regularly cleaned with bleach or ammonia products
Ammonia is basic (alkaline) and releases ammonia gas (NH₃), which rises and can create a more alkaline microenvironment near the ceiling.
So unless:
You sprayed or spilled iron salts and ferrocyanide onto the ceiling,
Or iron was somehow already deposited up there (e.g., from rust dust, iron-containing paint, or lab aerosols),
...you won't see blue staining.
I started reading it and right away this seems completely wrong and unreliable. Or at least it's wrong in the context we are interested in. I suspect you did not give it enough context and it is assuming some totally irrelevant scenario.
PHlevelGPT.jpg (57.7 KiB) Viewed 222 times
Both Rudolf and Green say the exact opposite. See Chemistry of Auschwitz, section 6.5.5 Alkalinity.
At neutral pH values, equilibrium concentrations of CN– are within the range of 3×10-4 to 1×10-3 mol per liter, depending on the temperature. An increase in the pH value by one point results in a ten-fold increase in the cyanide
equilibrium concentration. The actual cyanide concentration in masonry is determined, apart from the material’s alkalinity, by the actual concentration of HCN in the air, the velocity of absorption of the gas, adsorption effects within
the solid material, and possible reactions of the cyanide.
In fact, one of Green's key arguments was that the wall samples were not sufficiently alkaline for Prussian blue to form. Rudolf's counter was that fresh construction is highly alkaline. But the moisture and PH level decline over time. Green's samples in the 1990s therefore did not reflect conditions in 1943-44, which were ideal (moist and alkaline).
bombsaway wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:13 pm
Again, according to the AI, alkaline based cleaners or bleach wouldn't have to be applied the ceiling to effect ph levels there.
Within the orthodox frame, it makes sense that chambers like those in Auschwitz would be regularly and strenuously cleaned before use. But why clean chambers being used for delousing?
So to ask again - how does your gas-bleach-prep hypothesis work in this instance
It doesn't, the delousing chambers weren't cleaned.
Read the signpost in my image Bombsaway. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are following multiple threads simultaneously.
I meant to say the chambers weren't cleaned between delousing runs. Don't know what you're struggling with here.
Archie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:25 pm
I started reading it and right away this seems completely wrong and unreliable. Or at least it's wrong in the context we are interested in. I suspect you did not give it enough context and it is assuming some totally irrelevant scenario.
So your contention is that if we do a deep dive through the literature we'll see Prussian Blue is going to more readily form in high alkaline conditions?
Stubble wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:40 am
You know, I remember reading a lot of things from contemporary accounts, there was an orchestra, then a speech, then the people went in to the undressing area, then an 'ambulance' pulled up and ran its engine, then people got on the roof and dropped the pellets in, then 5 minutes later, the sonderkommando grabbed everyone, ran them up to the muffles, crammed 8 people in each one, and the cremation was done in 15 minutes per cycle.
[...]
You must be new here. I guess you are not familiar with bombsaway's buffet-style approach to source criticism which is to hunt through testimonies looking for a stray claim that is convenient for whatever just-so story he's spinning at the moment.
I forget about arguments du jour prepared by our guest chefs to my own detriment it seems. They are a bit of a salve applied liberally wherever a conspicuous problem arises. Aside from this example, you elucidate the fact that this is a pattern, or web of arguments and that this example does not live in isolation.
I thank you for pointing this out Archie. As a rather blunt instrument myself, I sometimes miss subtle nuances such as this.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Anyway, the gas-bleach-prep cycle requires that exact sequence every time a gassing was completed, correct?
Remember our model:
- Gassing finishes
- Gas is ventilated via extraction mechanism
- Sonderkommandos enter to remove the bodies
- Bleach / Ammonia is applied to walls & ceiling to remove the blood / urine / feces etc
- Room is prepped for next load of victims
So I'm asking you: between homicidal gassings where bleach was deployed in step 4, why did your model not inhibit HCN staining in any subsequent delousings?
I am testing your propopsed mechanism from Birkenau in Majdanek, and it has collapsed due to visible blue staining.
Archie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:25 pm
I started reading it and right away this seems completely wrong and unreliable. Or at least it's wrong in the context we are interested in. I suspect you did not give it enough context and it is assuming some totally irrelevant scenario.
So your contention is that if we do a deep dive through the literature we'll see Prussian Blue is going to more readily form in high alkaline conditions?
Why are you being cagey? My contention was perfectly clear. Do you concede the point or not? You won't concede it, but you didn't offer any counterpoint. That sort of non-response is why you have a poor reputation.
I see no reason why a "deep dive" is necessary here since both sides seem to accept this. Below is a link to Green.
HansHill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:41 pm
]why did your model not inhibit HCN staining in any subsequent delousings?
The gassings at Majdanek are evidenced to have been sporadic in nature, meaning that regular cleanings didn't occur. I don't believe that a single cleaning would permanently (or for weeks or months) prevent staining.
I do not accept, based on nothing more than ChatGPT, that the optimal PH is 4-7, contradicting all specialized expert sources I have read on the topic. GPT is either just totally wrong or it is pulling something from some irrelevant context.
Archie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:25 pm
I started reading it and right away this seems completely wrong and unreliable. Or at least it's wrong in the context we are interested in. I suspect you did not give it enough context and it is assuming some totally irrelevant scenario.
So your contention is that if we do a deep dive through the literature we'll see Prussian Blue is going to more readily form in high alkaline conditions?
Why are you being cagey? My contention was perfectly clear. Do you concede the point or not? You won't concede it, but you didn't offer any counterpoint. That sort of non-response is why you have a poor reputation.
I see no reason why a "deep dive" is necessary here since both sides seem to accept this. Below is a link to Green.
HansHill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:41 pm
]why did your model not inhibit HCN staining in any subsequent delousings?
The gassings at Majdanek are evidenced to have been sporadic in nature, meaning that regular cleanings didn't occur. I don't believe that a single cleaning would permanently (or for weeks or months) prevent staining.
That's fine Bombsaway and I will stop grilling you over it now, because that's about as far as we can take your hypothesis. It requires very specific parameters as we explored, and it needs those parameters to be configured exactly as you need them, with no variation possible.
This is called threading the eye of a needle. It is also a case of special pleading, as well as what I mentioned initially that it is God of the gaps style argumentation. I don't really have anything else to explore on this hypothesis other than to say its weak and unconvincing as I have demonstrated. Archie's exploring the of the pH aspect seems more fruitful anyway.
HansHill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 5:07 pm
That's fine Bombsaway and I will stop grilling you over it now, because that's about as far as we can take your hypothesis. It requires very specific parameters as we explored, and it needs those parameters to be configured exactly as you need them, with no variation possible.
So again, these very specific parameters that I have configured are
gas chambers in majdanek weren't cleaned after the evidenced delousing runs were done
gas chambers in Auschwitz were evidenced to have been cleaned after use (and logically this makes sense), no known use as delousing chambers
HansHill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:41 pm
]why did your model not inhibit HCN staining in any subsequent delousings?
The gassings at Majdanek are evidenced to have been sporadic in nature, meaning that regular cleanings didn't occur. I don't believe that a single cleaning would permanently (or for weeks or months) prevent staining.
That's fine Bombsaway and I will stop grilling you over it now, because that's about as far as we can take your hypothesis. It requires very specific parameters as we explored, and it needs those parameters to be configured exactly as you need them, with no variation possible.
This is called threading the eye of a needle. It is also a case of special pleading, as well as what I mentioned initially that it is God of the gaps style argumentation. I don't really have anything else to explore on this hypothesis other than to say its weak and unconvincing as I have demonstrated. Archie's exploring the of the pH aspect seems more fruitful anyway.
There is a photo of the outside of the little brick building (you can see the doors open for the A and B sides). This was published in Oct 1944, so it's very early.
It's on the left with the caption "The gas cells ..."
You can see a canopy over it which was later removed. That was so they could air out fumigated clothing when it was raining.
This theory about alternately doing Zyklon fumigations and occasional homicidal CO gassings in this building is rather embarrassing if you ask me. Occam's razor.
HansHill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 5:07 pm
That's fine Bombsaway and I will stop grilling you over it now, because that's about as far as we can take your hypothesis. It requires very specific parameters as we explored, and it needs those parameters to be configured exactly as you need them, with no variation possible.
So again, these very specific parameters that I have configured are
gas chambers in majdanek weren't cleaned after the evidenced delousing runs were done
gas chambers in Auschwitz were evidenced to have been cleaned after use (and logically this makes sense), no known use as delousing chambers
Did you just forget your own hypothesis? The theoretical cleaning agents being applied after a homicidal gassing to remove the urine and feces. Not a delousing. This is what you need to have been interrupted at Majdanek at least once* for your model to work, allowing a sequence break where the bleach was absent to allow PB formation during any subsequent HcN exposure.
*When I say at least once I'm being VERY generous because the PB formation is very visible, and is likely an accumulation of every instance of exposure of HcN. In reality, you need your "unbroken cleaning sequence" to have broken every time Zyklon was deployed in Majdanek and zero times in Birkenau.
Do you get it now that you are threading the eye of a needle?
