Who is to Blame for the Orthodox Historical Narrative?

[ConfusedJew]

I'm using AI to do your work for you in order to help you try to accomplish your goal more effectively. It makes mistakes on sourcing some evidence, sure, but it is great at doing what I just had it do. Take a look.

[Stubble]

Grok

Consider this a warning.

The alt hyp is necessary and must be robust and unimpeachable for it to be accepted. He is not wrong there.

The problem becomes the best way to navigate the alt hyp.

[Archie]

The Soviet version of Katyn was the official history in Eastern Europe until around 1990 when ... the Soviet Union collapsed. Do you think it's a coincidence that the lie persisted for as long as the regime behind it?

A lot of relatively smaller things can easily get buried for a period of time but they often come to light over time. Tens of thousands of casualties, compared to the millions who died in WW2, is less likely to be prioritized, especially for political reasons. Serious cracks started showing much earlier than the collapse of the Soviet Union but they were suppressed for political reasons.

In 1951, the U.S. House of Representatives’ Madden Committee (1951–52) concluded that the Soviets were responsible, but the matter remains politically sensitive. The truth of the massacre was preserved by Polish underground memory. By families and émigré communities who preserved the truth in private or in exile.

Beginning in the 1980s, serious cracks started to emerge. Katyn started to become a symbol of Soviet oppression and underground publications started circulating the truth. The Soviet Union was far more repressive than any country in the West. Although due to war trauma, the ability to question the Holocaust and spread anti-semitism has been repressed so I am somewhat sympathetic to those complaints, up to a point.

In 1987, a joint Soviet–Polish historical commission began investigating Katyn.

I just haven't seen anything comparable to the Katyn Massacre from you guys other than some of the abuse of senior Nazis after the war. Katyn had survivors or descendants of survivors who said that it was false and a US House Committee concluded that the Soviets were responsible.

The Madden Committee was, to state the obvious, American, i.e., outside the jurisdiction of the Soviet Union. And it was 1951 which was McCarthy era (strong anti-Soviet mood). It had no impact in the spheres under Soviet control. I think this supports my point that "truth" is regime dependent. Or are you going to argue that America is special?

As far as scale, if I want to show that X is a lie, why are you demanding that we find some example of some other lie Y that you personally consider to be "equivalent"?

[ConfusedJew]

The Madden Committee was, to state the obvious, American, i.e., outside the jurisdiction of the Soviet Union. And it was 1951 which was McCarthy era (strong anti-Soviet mood). It had no impact in the spheres under Soviet control. I think this supports my point that "truth" is regime dependent. Or are you going to argue that America is special?

As far as scale, if I want to show that X is a lie, why are you demanding that we find some example of some other lie Y that you personally consider to be "equivalent"?

I get why the Soviet Union would be motivated to cover it up but then why would Germany be so publicly about committing an atrocity that they didn't?

Doesn't information repression generally work in the opposite direction?

[ConfusedJew]

The alt hyp is necessary and must be robust and unimpeachable for it to be accepted. He is not wrong there.

The problem becomes the best way to navigate the alt hyp.

In my opinion, the weakest part is the inability to explain the whole body of witness testimonies. It is easier to explain away if it was only six witnesses that were making small errors or had clear selfish motives but there are thousands.

The other very big weakness is the inability to explain the drop in global Jewish population. If they weren't killed, why would the census reports be so wrong? Of the millions of missing Jews, how can so few be accounted for? There are probably far less than 100,000 cases of unexpected family reunions and you would expect to have way more of those after the Holocaust, especially with ancestral genetic testing that has been emerging over the last twenty years.

[Archie]

The Madden Committee was, to state the obvious, American, i.e., outside the jurisdiction of the Soviet Union. And it was 1951 which was McCarthy era (strong anti-Soviet mood). It had no impact in the spheres under Soviet control. I think this supports my point that "truth" is regime dependent. Or are you going to argue that America is special?

As far as scale, if I want to show that X is a lie, why are you demanding that we find some example of some other lie Y that you personally consider to be "equivalent"?

I get why the Soviet Union would be motivated to cover it up but then why would Germany be so publicly about committing an atrocity that they didn't?

Doesn't information repression generally work in the opposite direction?

"Germany" from 1933-1945 was the Third Reich.

"Germany" after 1945 was the Bonn Government and it was under the American thumb.

Why did a defeated nation acquiesce to the occupation regime? That is your question?

[ConfusedJew]

"Germany" from 1933-1945 was the Third Reich.

"Germany" after 1945 was the Bonn Government and it was under the American thumb.

Why did a defeated nation acquiesce to the occupation regime? That is your question?

Can you show any evidence that the US put pressure on Germany to accept responsibility and have them teach about it in schools?

Why would they still continue to do it after the reunification of Germany?

The national shame that has been placed on its citizens is severe. Wouldn't somebody or more people fight back against this if it weren't true?

Many Americans push back on distorted historical narratives that they were taught in the US system but it is more about self glorification than false shame.

[Stubble]

The alt hyp is necessary and must be robust and unimpeachable for it to be accepted. He is not wrong there.

The problem becomes the best way to navigate the alt hyp.

In my opinion, the weakest part is the inability to explain the whole body of witness testimonies. It is easier to explain away if it was only six witnesses that were making small errors or had clear selfish motives but there are thousands.

The other very big weakness is the inability to explain the drop in global Jewish population. If they weren't killed, why would the census reports be so wrong? Of the millions of missing Jews, how can so few be accounted for? There are probably far less than 100,000 cases of unexpected family reunions and you would expect to have way more of those after the Holocaust, especially with ancestral genetic testing that has been emerging over the last twenty years.

You exaggerate greatly. When we talk about 'the process' it is a handful, facing literal armies. Their compliance was a foregone conclusion none the less.

With sonderkommando, the motivation was revenge. For the 'perpetrators', self preservation or survival of their families.

They were bent directly over a barrel and testified/confessed to the impossible.

/shrug

I've made progress with the alt hyp on the Hungarian question of 'where'd they go', but, I still have much more winnowing to do with the question as a whole for it to be unassailably demonstrable and patently obvious.

My work continues, and will continue, until I have found and dispositioned each and every missing person alleged to have been murdered.

[ConfusedJew]

You exaggerate greatly. When we talk about 'the process' it is a handful, facing literal armies. Their compliance was a foregone conclusion none the less.

With sonderkommando, the motivation was revenge. For the 'perpetrators', self preservation or survival of their families.

They were bent directly over a barrel and testified/confessed to the impossible.

/shrug

I've made progress with the alt hyp on the Hungarian question of 'where'd they go', but, I still have much more winnowing to do with the question as a whole for it to be unassailably demonstrable and patently obvious.

My work continues, and will continue, until I have found and dispositioned each and every missing person alleged to have been murdered.

A handful of what?

Why would the sonderkommando be motivated to seek revenge?

If revenge was their motive and they didn't care at all about being honest, how do you explain that they were aligned on so many large details, if not everything? Many of them provided testimony without knowledge of the other testimonies too as I understand it. How did they coordinate?

It wasn't just sonderkommando that testified regarding the gas chambers. Many other survivors had a lot to share about the extermination and brutality of the Nazi regime.

Regarding the "perpetrator" testimony, why didn't any of them vehemently deny it and get angry of being accused of lies?

Why did Hoess write memoirs in which he voluntarily shared details of what he and they did?

I think the census drop extends far beyond any Hungarian question but I see that you are still working on that.

[Stubble]

Why did jews confess to the ritual murder of Saint Simon of Trent?

Why did witches confess to fornication with the devil, riding broomsticks through the air and casting hexes on people?

Why did countless murders get exonerated by DNA evidence when it came about after confessions to murder?

Your questions here seem unserious to me. If you are actually think your questions are genuine, I hate to break it to you, but, they are easily answered by opening a book and examining history. History of false confessions, history of manipulation of the record by the victor, history of mythos and legend etc.

[Archie]

"Germany" from 1933-1945 was the Third Reich.

"Germany" after 1945 was the Bonn Government and it was under the American thumb.

Why did a defeated nation acquiesce to the occupation regime? That is your question?

Can you show any evidence that the US put pressure on Germany to accept responsibility and have them teach about it in schools?

Why would they still continue to do it after the reunification of Germany?

The national shame that has been placed on its citizens is severe. Wouldn't somebody or more people fight back against this if it weren't true?

Many Americans push back on distorted historical narratives that they were taught in the US system but it is more about self glorification than false shame.

See for example Harald Jahner, Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945-1955. In particular, chapter 8 - "The Re-educators: The Allies go to work on the German psyche." Or Gilles MacDonogh, After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation.

The Americans had the explicit mission of "denazifying" Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification

Many SS and NSDAP members were arrested or dismissed from positions of influence. Questionnaires were sent out to ferret out those with Nazi sympathies. This suggestion of "well, why didn't they just clarify the confusion?" is hilarious to me and betrays an ignorance of the circumstances at the time.

They also had total control of the press. This Jew is the guy who set up most of the "German" newspapers after the war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Habe

In 1945, Habe returned to Germany in the wake of the occupying US Army. By November 1945 he had created 18 newspapers in the American Occupation Zone. Then he became Editor of Die Neue Zeitung in Munich.

Early on after the war, they set up a historical institute to police Third Reich history.

The Institute of Contemporary History (Institut für Zeitgeschichte) in Munich was conceived in 1947 under the name Deutsches Institut für Geschichte der nationalsozialistischen Zeit ("German Institute of the History of the National Socialist Era"). Founded by the German government and the State of Bavaria at the suggestion of the Allied Forces, it was established in 1949 and renamed in 1952. Its purpose is the analysis of contemporary German history.

"At the suggestion" of the Allies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute ... y_(Munich)

[HansHill]

These are not serious questions, and they betray a serious lack of critical thinking in you. Surprise surprise I know, but here we are.

Consider that Germany was cleaved in two, East vs West, and almost immediately after the war, the world was equally cleaved in two via the Cold War, also East vs West. I will assume you never heard of the Cold War, but a chain of events happened from the cleaving of Germany in two onwards, that had literal near-apocalyptic, world ending results for the entirety of mankind. I'm sure you probably don't believe this or never heard of it, but there's nothing I can do about that.

One of the first triggers in the Cold War was called the Berlin Blockade, I again will assume you've never heard of this, but you can ask your buddy ChatGPT and i'm sure it will give you some slop that at least partly corroborates what I am about to tell you. The Soviets ring-fenced the entire city of Berlin (with a population of millions) with no access to resources like food or coal. Each "half" of the former Allies, East & West were hurled into a massive propaganda war against each other in this apocalyptic death struggle, especially to engender buy-in from German citizens who only a few short months/years earlier were the literal superpower in the world, and doubly so for Berliners.

If you think either side, East or West, would simply throw everything away "oh hey Berliners, remember all that gas chamber stuff, yeah sorry about that, but we're on your side now, pinky promise" - then you are off your God damn meds and need your head examined.

Until you actually become serious about history, and begin to start thinking critically and not "Jew-centrically" then your entire insufferable worldview will be just about as confused as your name suggests.

[Wahrheitssucher]

These are not serious questions, and they betray a serious lack of critical thinking in you…

…Until you actually become serious about history, and begin to start thinking critically and not "Jew-centrically" then your entire insufferable worldview will be just about as confused as your name suggests.

Precisely!

Well said.

[Nessie]

Where did this idea of the Holocaust come from? Why did people make it up? How did thousands of people, including alleged perpetrators decide to confess to the Holocaust? Is there any other recorded hoax in the course of human history that has been at a fraction of this scale?

I don't see how this is humanly possible, let alone plausible. Will somebody please explain to me how anybody could possible even do this?

The origin of the Holocaust narrative, is primarily with the Poles, who first started to report on mass arrests and killings. Escaped Polish and Slovakian prisoners provided the early narrative for what was happening at the death camps.

So-called Holocaust revisionists cannot bring themselves to believe that the Poles and Slovakians could pull off a mass hoax, so they try to blame the Jews and Soviets.

[ConfusedJew]

Why did jews confess to the ritual murder of Saint Simon of Trent?

Why did witches confess to fornication with the devil, riding broomsticks through the air and casting hexes on people?

Why did countless murders get exonerated by DNA evidence when it came about after confessions to murder?

Your questions here seem unserious to me. If you are actually think your questions are genuine, I hate to break it to you, but, they are easily answered by opening a book and examining history. History of false confessions, history of manipulation of the record by the victor, history of mythos and legend etc.

These situations are so different that they aren't even comparable. There was no pressure or incentive for Hoss to write a memoir.

Nothing like that has ever happened before in history at the level of an entire nation.