Undeserved reply to CJ on population statistics

[TlsMS93]

Goebbels is very clear in my opinion in his diary, after they crossed the Reich they did not care much about what would happen to them, that is, the primary objective was to get them out of the Reich so as not to cause disturbances and acts of internal sabotage, if they also got ready in the east they would be shot as many were, I do not deny, but the objective was not to contaminate German society with their agitations and black market.

[Nessie]

Goebbels is very clear in my opinion in his diary, after they crossed the Reich they did not care much about what would happen to them, that is, the primary objective was to get them out of the Reich so as not to cause disturbances and acts of internal sabotage, if they also got ready in the east they would be shot as many were, I do not deny, but the objective was not to contaminate German society with their agitations and black market.

The Wannsee Conference attendees discussed resettlement, at the same time as the minutes recorded huge drops in the Jewish population in the east. How do you explain that? Resettlement in the east should have meant a rise in the Jewish population.

Lebensraum was the policy to seize land in the east for Germans, primarily to farm. If Jews would "contaminate German society" and the plan was for an expanded German society in the east, why would they resettle millions of Jews there?

[TlsMS93]

I don't know of any decline in the Jewish population in the East. They counted 5 million Jews in the USSR, although the 1939 census listed 3 million. Perhaps they considered the annexations of 1939-40.

The final solution was only a single step: first, concentrate Jews in the East and then decide what to do with them after the war. This aligns with what Hitler said at the height of the supposed extermination, a major contradiction. One of the drafts of Generalplan Ost involved settling between 5 and 6 million Jews in the Urals. A large portion of Soviet Jews fled to the Russian interior. Perhaps this is where the suspicion of a decline in the number of Jews in the East stems.

[Nessie]

I don't know of any decline in the Jewish population in the East. They counted 5 million Jews in the USSR, although the 1939 census listed 3 million. Perhaps they considered the annexations of 1939-40.

The final solution was only a single step: first, concentrate Jews in the East and then decide what to do with them after the war. This aligns with what Hitler said at the height of the supposed extermination, a major contradiction. One of the drafts of Generalplan Ost involved settling between 5 and 6 million Jews in the Urals. A large portion of Soviet Jews fled to the Russian interior. Perhaps this is where the suspicion of a decline in the number of Jews in the East stems.

Wannsee Minutes, January 1942;

"Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000"

The Jewish populations were Estonia; 1000, Latvia; 93,000 and Lithuania; 210,000. That is a huge drop, when you suggest resettlement was taking place, which would mean population rises. Also from January 1942, was this map, showing the number of Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen;



The east was being cleared of Jews, which is at odds with claims it was being used for resettlement. No wonder, with all of that evidence, you have been dodging answering my questions.

[Keen]

No wonder, with all of that evidence, you have been dodging answering my questions.

Are you talking about this evidence here:

viewtopic.php?p=15925#p15925

and here:

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

???

[TlsMS93]

Here comes that talk again about the Jäger Report, reports of this, reports of that. The only thing these reports don't say is where the bodies and remains ended up.

No one believes the German reports of German massacres at the hands of Poles, but they do believe in the existence of a genocide they were supposedly hiding even from themselves.

[Callafangers]

Stahlecker's report (and others) claim Estonia was 'Judenfrei' as of the beginning of 1942. But this is evidence that 'Judenfrei' wasn't about the entire territory being absolutely cleared of all Jews. In fact, labor camps for Jews (which were not the focus of the Einsatzgruppen since these Jews were already imprisoned and, hence, not a security threat which was EG's focus) remained open, filled with Jews. Here's one that remained open another two years (at least -- Dec 1943 is merely a 'last mention'), where Jewish women worked at a shipyard for the company Phillip Holzmann AG:

Reval (Tallinn)

Area: East Iceland Convention General District

Opening: December 1942

Closing date: December 1943

Deportations:

Inmates:

Gender: women

Deployment of prisoners at: Philipp Holzmann AG

Type of work: work at the shipyard

http://www.tenhumbergreinhard.de/1933-1 ... nn-ag.html

The Einsatzgruppen (hence, Stahlecker), had an administrative focus that excluded Jews already fully "under wraps". This is apparently true across the areas which EG was active.

[Callafangers]

Regarding the infamous 'Stahlecker map', I have myself counted four different versions of it online. More discussion here: https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... 404#p93517

[Callafangers]

Stahlecker's report (and others) claim Estonia was 'Judenfrei' as of the beginning of 1942. But this is evidence that 'Judenfrei' wasn't about the entire territory being absolutely cleared of all Jews. In fact, labor camps for Jews (which were not the focus of the Einsatzgruppen since these Jews were already imprisoned and, hence, not a security threat which was EG's focus) remained open, filled with Jews. Here's one that remained open another two years (at least -- Dec 1943 is merely a 'last mention'), where Jewish women worked at a shipyard for the company Phillip Holzmann AG

Correction: this camp opened in December 1942, then remained open for at least one year. In other words: Jews were being brought into Estonia, long after Estonia was supposed to be 'Judenfrei'.

[Nessie]

Here comes that talk again about the Jäger Report, reports of this, reports of that. The only thing these reports don't say is where the bodies and remains ended up.

No one believes the German reports of German massacres at the hands of Poles, but they do believe in the existence of a genocide they were supposedly hiding even from themselves.

Yet again, you dodge my point that the attendees at Wannsee discuss resettlement in the east, at the same time as they record huge drops in the Jewish population in the east. That means resettlement was not the actual plan.

[Nessie]

Stahlecker's report (and others) claim Estonia was 'Judenfrei' as of the beginning of 1942. But this is evidence that 'Judenfrei' wasn't about the entire territory being absolutely cleared of all Jews. In fact, labor camps for Jews (which were not the focus of the Einsatzgruppen since these Jews were already imprisoned and, hence, not a security threat which was EG's focus) remained open, filled with Jews...

That fits with the Wannsee plan of making the east Jew free, using some Jews as labourers until they die and ridding the rest with supposed "resettlement", a bizarre form of resettlement that somehow involved a drop in the population, so it was really mass killing, as reported by the EG.

[Wahrheitssucher]

CJ has still not addressed this.
He claims that there was absolute agreement on the prewar figure of 16.6M which is simply not true.
Many Jewish sources and reference works estimated a world population around a million lower than CJ's "consensus" figure. In general, he is greatly underestimating the difficulty of counting and Jews and is greatly overconfident in the reliability of the stats.
…the prewar number …should be relatively easy. The statistical difficulties would obviously be much greater in the aftermath of the war.

"The total number of Jews in the world was estimated in 1937 in general at around 17 million,
of which more than 10 million are found in Europe."

https://germanhistorydocs.org/en/nazi-g ... ch-23-1943

Your link is only the long version. There also a shorter version and that is where he quotes the prewar stats.
This link has both.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

Outraged and “wrathful” representatives for ‘World Jewry’ declared that there were 14 million jews worldwide and only 600,000 in Germany in 1933.

. . . . . .

Daily Express, March 24, 1933

Special Political Correspondent.

A strange and unforeseen sequel has emerged from the stories of German Jew-baiting.
The whole of Israel throughout the world is uniting to declare an economic and financial war on Germany.
Hitherto the cry has gone up: "Germany is persecuting the Jews." If the present plans are carried out, the Hitlerite cry will be: "The Jews are persecuting Germany."

All Israel is rising in wrath against the Nazi onslaught on the Jews. Adolf Hitler, [who] swept into power by an appeal to elemental patriotism, is making history of a kind he least expected. Thinking to unite only the German nation to race consciousness, he has roused the whole Jewish people to a national renascence.
The appearance of the Swastika symbol of a new Germany has called forth the Lion of Judah, the old battle symbol of Jewish defiance.

Fourteen million Jews, dispersed throughout the world, have banded together as one man to declare war on the German persecutors of their co-religionists. Sectional differences and antagonisms have been submerged in one common aim — to stand by the 600,000 Jews of Germany who are terrorised by Hitlerite anti-Semitism and to compel Fascist Germany to end its campaign of violence and suppression directed against its Jewish minority.

Plans for action maturing in Europe and America
World Jewry has made up its mind not to rest quiescent in face of this revival of medieval Jew-baiting.
Germany may be called on to pay a heavy price for Hitler's antagonism to the Jews. She is faced with an international boycott in commerce, finance, and industry.
The Jewish merchant prince is leaving his counting-house, the banker his board-room, the shopkeeper his store, and the pedlar his humble barrow, to join together in what has become a holy war [jihad] to combat the Hitlerite enemies of the Jew.
Plans for concerted Jewish action are being matured in Europe and America to strike back in reprisal at Hitlerite Germany.
In London, New York, Paris, and Warsaw Jewish merchants are uniting for a commercial crusade.
Resolutions are being taken throughout the Jewish business world to sever trade relations with Germany.
… The old and reunited people of Israel are rising with new and modern weapons to fight their age-old battle with their persecutors.



https://www.nationalists.org/library/hi ... rmany.html

[Nessie]

Also from the Daily Express;

https://www.express.co.uk/latest/holoca ... eNumber=26

"The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II, which saw Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murder some six million"