The Pyres of Dresden

[Stubble]

Move it to the Kola Thread bombs.

Now, how was gasoline poured on the pyre? One dipper at a time? Or some other way?

Charcoal lighter fluid bottles from aldi's?

[bombsaway]

Move it to the Kola Thread bombs.

Now, how was gasoline poured on the pyre? One dipper at a time? Or some other way?

Charcoal lighter fluid bottles from aldi's?

I've explained already in this thread what I think, and if you're too daft to get it, that's not my problem. When you first got here you seemed to have modicum of empathy for the other side, not immediately jumping to the usual 'dishonesty' claims. Without that you're a below average poster, not really worth the effort for me.

[Stubble]

You haven't explained shit.

You posted a video of a guy spraying some lighter fluid and a guy tossing some gas on a couple of faggots with a picnic cup.

The only thing you have said at any point across 2 threads is 'it's not impossible' and 'I don't believe you when you say the quantity that would be required'.

If you are too dishonest to actually articulate your hypothesis, in a cogent way, then, you are indeed, dishonest, regardless of how you view, yourself.

Now, I ask again, what was the method of delivery, since you are now right back to a point you called me ridiculous for saying you were supporting, again.

How was gasoline/benzin added to the pyres Bombsaway.

[Nessie]

...

Some claim this was done using only 'liquid fuels'. For a myriad of reasons, supposing that these bodies were cremated using gasoline alone is frankly ridiculous. One very clear and unignorable fact is, uhm, the, wood, in the pictures...I would also assume there is some coke or coal between the bodies looking at the color still image and the heat pattern indicated by it. Note that the pyre glows like a stoked ember.

Such a patent fact doesn't get in the way of some claiming 'it was a pure liquid job' and turning to statements made in the 50's and 60's and saying, see, this proves it.

Look, I don't care how many people saw Martha riding her broomstick through the air, that never happened, much like claims of bodies being 'completely cremated with liquid fuel'.

Some reading;

https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... pton-farm/

Just because you cannot work out how it was possible, does not therefore mean it cannot have happened. The evidence that the Nazis used mass cremation pyres comes from

- multiple eyewitnesses
- photos, some of which you have posted, but there are others of pyres at Ohrdruf camp.
- the physical remains of buried cremated remains at the locations of mass pyres.
- circumstantial evidence of Nazi experiments with mass cremations to dispose of corpses, as opposed to only burying corpses.

[Leif F.]

Hi folks, if I may chime in, I was wondering if we could try to really establish the both un-and disputed specifics about the Dresden Altmarkt pyres, given that they are constantly cited as arguments?

If starting with the main documents cited (by Bombsaway/Muehlenkamp/Taylor/Acht) claiming 6865 bodies cremated on the Dresden Altmarkt in 2 weeks to 8-10 m3 ash:

"The document StAD, Marstall- und Bestattungsamt, Nachtrag I - Schreiben, 4.3.1945, referred to in Matthias Neutzner, Martha Heinrich Acht, pp. 91, 93 and 221, partially quoted in the excerpt from Martha Heinrich Acht transcribed and translated here (emphasis added): For two weeks the old market place in the city center became a crematorium. On 5 March the corpses collected in the streets had been retrieved, the pyres gone out. »By my estimate, 8 - 10 cubic meters of ash lay on the Altmarkt«, was reported to the city administration the day before. »The Brigadeführer wished that this ash be loaded into recipients (boxes or sacks) and transported to the Heidefriedhof, where it is to be sunk into the earth at the place marked in lead on the map. It is not necessary to leave the boxes or sacks in the soil"

Strangely, given that

A) The average ash-amount left after a human adult body`s cremation apparently is around (3.5% of original weight=) 2.4 kg/5.3 lb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation) and

B) The cited original official report states explicitly that "8-10 m3 ashes"
was the total amount resulting after the 2 weeks long Altmarkt operation and

C) HC/Muehlenkamp them/himself give as human ash density 0.5g/cm3:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... .html#more

"The specific weights of human ash and wood ash I’ll consider are the same that Mattogno considered Mattogno & Graf’s book about Treblinka[300]: 0.5 g/cmᶟ for human ashes, 0.34 g/cmᶟ for wood ashes. "

The thus resulting inevitable mathematical conclusion is actually:

0.5g/cm3= 500kg/m3 x 9 m3 divided by 2.4 kg = 1875

proving that this can only have been at the most actually the ashes of 1875 corpses.

That is not even 28% of the claimed total of 6865 corpses with 72% unaccounted for and must mean either that less than 28% of those 6865 bodies were actually burned/reduced to the degree/state of "ash" or that not even a third of that figure were actually ever burned on pyres in the Altmarkt? (If the latter that would in turn mean that 500 corpses/day cannot be correct either.)

Even if compensating for the fact that some of those bodies were children(the pictures show only few of those though it seems), there is no way to even remotely account for even half of the claimed corpse-numbers allegedly reduced to ash.

I wondered whether the average 2.4 kg/human body could contain a significant part of casket-wood-ash counted in and thus ev. distort the figure (IF we just for arguments sake accept that on the Altmarkt more liquid than wood-fuel was employed compared to "normal" cremation), but then I learned that in fact the whole concept of "ash" as cremation-remains is largely false, at least when referring to closed fully heat-controlled crematory chambers, the mentioned 2.4 kg average "ash" is not ash as in our woodstoves at all, but pure mechanically ground (calcium)bone-fragments, which are the only elements resistant enough to be left after full 1-2+ hours exposure to constant 700-900 degrees C in a closed chamber, all else is burned off, as several longtime funeral-home-directors personally explain in this very informative thread:

https://www.quora.com/After-a-cremation ... the-coffin

So, no, not only does this mean that the 2.4 kg average of at least 90+% pure human ash principally, and thus the math that the mentioned 9 cm3 on Dresden Altmarkt can`t account for more than at best 2000 corpses remains, but the basic fact that "ash" did remain on the Altmarkt which apparently was normal ash, not mechanically ground bone-fragments (or has anyone found evidence/reports that they involved mechanical grinders/grinding on site?) raises the question to what percentage/degree were the 9 m3 alleged thousands of corpses "completely reduced to ash" and to what degree not fully burned wood/solid-fuel ash?

Can someone explain this?

[bombsaway]

Hi folks, if I may chime in, I was wondering if we could try to really establish the both un-and disputed specifics about the Dresden Altmarkt pyres, given that they are constantly cited as arguments?

If starting with the main documents cited (by Bombsaway/Muehlenkamp/Taylor/Acht) claiming 6865 bodies cremated on the Dresden Altmarkt in 2 weeks to 8-10 m3 ash:

Let me use Mattogno's calculations

First, Mattogno uses 46 kilograms for the weight of an average body. Multiplying by 600,000 remains, he comes up with 1,350 tons of human ash, with a volume of 2,560 cubic meters.

Second, Mattogno claims that the 96,000 tons of wood would have created 7,680 tons of wood ash, with a volume of 22,600 cubic meters. The total volume of ash is therefore 25,300 cubic meters (2,700 + 22,600).

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or20-room-ashes/

so it's pretty easy, we divide by 100 to get the total volume of expected ash

250 cubic meters

assuming only 2000 were cremated we get about 80 cubic meters.

The max for 8-10 cubic meters would be about 200 people, according to Mattogno's no doubt "conservative" calculations. We also have to remember he set the weight pretty low, 46kg (for Jews). Germans citizens would have been considerably heavier.

If there was a way for them to separate wood and human ash, or they used mostly liquid fuels, and we subtract the wood ash, then we get to 2000 bodies.

Then there is of course a contemporaneous document listing 6865 burned in the Altmarkt, so we have to square that with the witness testimony.

[Stubble]

I get 32.952m^3 in cremains alone assuming 2.4kg/per and .5g/cm^3.

That's not 8-10 and it assumes complete cremation along with 0 fuel ash.

[Nessie]

If starting with the main documents cited (by Bombsaway/Muehlenkamp/Taylor/Acht) claiming 6865 bodies cremated on the Dresden Altmarkt in 2 weeks to 8-10 m3 ash...

If that was then buried in the established grave space at Belzec, of 21,000m3, then 8m3 of ash from 6865 corpses, would mean that there was space to bury 18,020,625 corpses. That is reached by dividing 21,000 by 8 = 2625 and then multiplying that by 6865. If the higher 10m3 is used, then the result is 14,416,500 corpses.

[Nessie]

Hi folks, if I may chime in, I was wondering if we could try to really establish the both un-and disputed specifics about the Dresden Altmarkt pyres, given that they are constantly cited as arguments?

If starting with the main documents cited (by Bombsaway/Muehlenkamp/Taylor/Acht) claiming 6865 bodies cremated on the Dresden Altmarkt in 2 weeks to 8-10 m3 ash:

"The document StAD, Marstall- und Bestattungsamt, Nachtrag I - Schreiben, 4.3.1945, referred to in Matthias Neutzner, Martha Heinrich Acht, pp. 91, 93 and 221, partially quoted in the excerpt from Martha Heinrich Acht transcribed and translated here (emphasis added): For two weeks the old market place in the city center became a crematorium. On 5 March the corpses collected in the streets had been retrieved, the pyres gone out. »By my estimate, 8 - 10 cubic meters of ash lay on the Altmarkt«, was reported to the city administration the day before. »The Brigadeführer wished that this ash be loaded into recipients (boxes or sacks) and transported to the Heidefriedhof, where it is to be sunk into the earth at the place marked in lead on the map. It is not necessary to leave the boxes or sacks in the soil"

That appears to be a person's visual estimation of how much ash the pyres produced, as opposed to a calculation. Tests prove that people are not very good at estimating dimensions and sizes, so that claim has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Strangely, given that

A) The average ash-amount left after a human adult body`s cremation apparently is around (3.5% of original weight=) 2.4 kg/5.3 lb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation) and

B) The cited original official report states explicitly that "8-10 m3 ashes"
was the total amount resulting after the 2 weeks long Altmarkt operation and

C) HC/Muehlenkamp them/himself give as human ash density 0.5g/cm3:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... .html#more

"The specific weights of human ash and wood ash I’ll consider are the same that Mattogno considered Mattogno & Graf’s book about Treblinka[300]: 0.5 g/cmᶟ for human ashes, 0.34 g/cmᶟ for wood ashes. "

The thus resulting inevitable mathematical conclusion is actually:

0.5g/cm3= 500kg/m3 x 9 m3 divided by 2.4 kg = 1875

proving that this can only have been at the most actually the ashes of 1875 corpses.

That assumes the figures provided by the various sources are accurate. If they are, then 500,000 corpses, at 9m3 per 1875 corpses, could be buried in a grave space of 2,400m3, or just under one Olympic sized swimming pool.

That is not even 28% of the claimed total of 6865 corpses with 72% unaccounted for and must mean either that less than 28% of those 6865 bodies were actually burned/reduced to the degree/state of "ash" or that not even a third of that figure were actually ever burned on pyres in the Altmarkt? (If the latter that would in turn mean that 500 corpses/day cannot be correct either.)

The number of corpses for the pyres is a count. The volume of ash is an estimation. A count is more likely to be accurate than an estimation, so it is more likely that the estimation of ash produced is wrong.

Even if compensating for the fact that some of those bodies were children(the pictures show only few of those though it seems), there is no way to even remotely account for even half of the claimed corpse-numbers allegedly reduced to ash.

I wondered whether the average 2.4 kg/human body could contain a significant part of casket-wood-ash counted in and thus ev. distort the figure (IF we just for arguments sake accept that on the Altmarkt more liquid than wood-fuel was employed compared to "normal" cremation), but then I learned that in fact the whole concept of "ash" as cremation-remains is largely false, at least when referring to closed fully heat-controlled crematory chambers, the mentioned 2.4 kg average "ash" is not ash as in our woodstoves at all, but pure mechanically ground (calcium)bone-fragments, which are the only elements resistant enough to be left after full 1-2+ hours exposure to constant 700-900 degrees C in a closed chamber, all else is burned off, as several longtime funeral-home-directors personally explain in this very informative thread:

https://www.quora.com/After-a-cremation ... the-coffin

So, no, not only does this mean that the 2.4 kg average of at least 90+% pure human ash principally, and thus the math that the mentioned 9 cm3 on Dresden Altmarkt can`t account for more than at best 2000 corpses remains, but the basic fact that "ash" did remain on the Altmarkt which apparently was normal ash, not mechanically ground bone-fragments (or has anyone found evidence/reports that they involved mechanical grinders/grinding on site?) raises the question to what percentage/degree were the 9 m3 alleged thousands of corpses "completely reduced to ash" and to what degree not fully burned wood/solid-fuel ash?

Can someone explain this?

The estimation of 8-10m3 of ash from each pyre was likely wrong, as many attempts at estimation are. Or, the number of corpses counted was also wrong. Either way, trying to work out how much ash is produced from a Dresden pyre is fraught with difficulties, due to no definitively accurate data. However, the most basic calculations show that the corpses from the Dresden pyres, body, wood and clothing, produced volumes of ash that graves, as found at the AR camps and Chelmno, could have easily contained.

[Callafangers]

The estimation of 8-10m3 of ash from each pyre was likely wrong, as many attempts at estimation are. Or, the number of corpses counted was also wrong. Either way, trying to work out how much ash is produced from a Dresden pyre is fraught with difficulties, due to no definitively accurate data. However, the most basic calculations show that the corpses from the Dresden pyres, body, wood and clothing, produced volumes of ash that graves, as found at the AR camps and Chelmno, could have easily contained.

Considering it seems like no one was attempting any critical investigation, the 8-10m3 of ash was likely based on zero actual measurement and reported separately from whatever bones, etc., were left, and were probably told as an emotional narrative about a cremation event rather than anything scientific. It could also have been about just one particular, symbolic ash pile which the presumed witness observed. In any case, this does not and cannot entail they were completely reduced to ash unless we allow far more generous use of fuels. The laws of physics (thermodynamics) are defined enough (as is the energy contained per biomass) that we can calculate how much fuel is needed per corpse. And tales of some 'gallons of petrol' and Christmas fire logs ain't enough.

[Nessie]

The estimation of 8-10m3 of ash from each pyre was likely wrong, as many attempts at estimation are. Or, the number of corpses counted was also wrong. Either way, trying to work out how much ash is produced from a Dresden pyre is fraught with difficulties, due to no definitively accurate data. However, the most basic calculations show that the corpses from the Dresden pyres, body, wood and clothing, produced volumes of ash that graves, as found at the AR camps and Chelmno, could have easily contained.

Considering it seems like no one was attempting any critical investigation, the 8-10m3 of ash was likely based on zero actual measurement and reported separately from whatever bones, etc., were left, and were probably told as an emotional narrative about a cremation event rather than anything scientific. It could also have been about just one particular, symbolic ash pile which the presumed witness observed. In any case, this does not and cannot entail they were completely reduced to ash unless we allow far more generous use of fuels. The laws of physics (thermodynamics) are defined enough (as is the energy contained per biomass) that we can calculate how much fuel is needed per corpse. And tales of some 'gallons of petrol' and Christmas fire logs ain't enough.

Corroborating eyewitness descriptions are enough for courts, historians and journalists, and are only not enough for you, when it is what you do not want to believe.

[Stubble]

A proposal,

We fund an experiment with 300 pig carcasses. We build a pyre, we feed wood through one side and collect ash/cremains from the other.

We see what it takes, and what it leaves.

[Wetzelrad]

If starting with the main documents cited (by Bombsaway/Muehlenkamp/Taylor/Acht) claiming 6865 bodies cremated on the Dresden Altmarkt in 2 weeks to 8-10 m3 ash:

"The document StAD, Marstall- und Bestattungsamt, Nachtrag I - Schreiben, 4.3.1945, referred to in Matthias Neutzner, Martha Heinrich Acht, pp. 91, 93 and 221, partially quoted in the excerpt from Martha Heinrich Acht transcribed and translated here (emphasis added): For two weeks the old market place in the city center became a crematorium. On 5 March the corpses collected in the streets had been retrieved, the pyres gone out. »By my estimate, 8 - 10 cubic meters of ash lay on the Altmarkt«, was reported to the city administration the day before. »The Brigadeführer wished that this ash be loaded into recipients (boxes or sacks) and transported to the Heidefriedhof, where it is to be sunk into the earth at the place marked in lead on the map. It is not necessary to leave the boxes or sacks in the soil"

Personally I find it naive to think that human ash was left there to pile up for two weeks. This operation appears to have been fairly well staffed and organized, and they wouldn't have sat on their laurels for two weeks. I would expect that the wagons carrying in loads of bodies and fuel would also have carried out loads of ashes, after they had suitably cooled, whether or not it was documented.

That aside, here is another look at the math. Irving tells us the Heidefriedhof burial involved "several small horse drawn carts and ten large trucks with trailers", which dumped the ashes into "a pit twenty-five feet long and sixteen feet wide". If that pit was 6 feet deep, then it had a volume of ~68 cubic meters. The estimated 8-10 cubic meters of ash would take up only 12-15% of this space.

If we are comparing this example from Dresden to the purported mass graves of Jewish ashes, would they too be only 12-15% ash by volume? This would have devastating consequences.

[TlsMS93]

Corroborating eyewitness descriptions are enough for courts, historians and journalists, and are only not enough for you, when it is what you do not want to believe.

So if a woman accuses you of abusing her, will that be true in court? Aren't there any need for security cameras, forensic examinations, and DNA testing of genetic material?

[bombsaway]

I think if I was a Dresden negationist I could argue (based on the contradictory witness testimony) that the cremations were propagandistic in nature and only a few hundred were burned lol.

How many cords did they have to divert to burn this many? Wait, it looks like they just used wood from building wreckage.

Something doesn't add up.