Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

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HansHill
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Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

Post by HansHill »

In his 1994 paper, linked below, Markiewicz tells us:
We decided therefore to determine the cyanide ions using a method that does not induce the breakdown of the composed ferrum cyanide complex (this is the blue under discussion) .....carried out by Epstein's method.
https://codoh.com/media/files/downloads ... 94-ocr.pdf

Citing Joseph Epstein's paper: Epstein J., Estimation of Micro quantities of Cyanide, Analytical Chemistry
1947, Vol. 19, p. 272.


He then claims
Under present circumstances we established the lower limit of determinability of cyanide ions at a level of 3-4 μg CN- in 1 kg of the sample.
Germar Rudolf challenges this in his work "The Chemistry of Auschwitz", as follows:
The Polish scientist used the microdiffusion-chamber procedure, which does not permit the detection of iron-
cyanide compounds like Iron Blue. The Poles claim that the detection limit for other cyanides lies at a concentration of 3-4 μg per kg sample material, yet the paper they cite clearly gives 0.2 mg/L (200 μg/kg) as a detection limit for aqueous solutions. The samples of the second series were analyzed three times. For the resulting differences see Table 30.

Section 8.2.1
So, who is right?

Lets analyze the original 1947 Epstein paper as published, which was cited and utilized by Markiewicz in his 1994 paper. Link below, along with DOI code for those who wish to retain a copy in their archives:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60004a018
https://doi.org/10.1021/ac60004a018

Epstein starts with "exactly 10 micrograms of cyanide ion per milliliter of water"

This equates to 10 μg/ mL = 10mg/L = 10 ppm

Image

From this stock solution, serial dilutions were prepared a range containing:

0.2 μg/mL = 0.2ppm
0.4 μg/mL = 0.4ppm
0.6 μg/mL = 0.6ppm
0.8 μg/mL = 0.8ppm
1.0 μg/mL = 1.0ppm
1.2 μg/mL = 1.2ppm

Minimum detectable threshold: The Epstein paper explicitly states that "as little as 0.2 micrograms of cyanide can be estimated with an accuracy of 99% ±4%."

Image
Image

This equates to 0.2 μg/mL = 0.2ppm, with the range given as lying at 0.2 - 1.2ppm

Conclusion: Rudolf clearly is right to call into question the detection limits as specified by Markiewicz.

So what gives?

The unfortunate answer is: we don't know. We do not know exactly what Markiewicz did to "enhance" the Epstein method to obtain a degree of sensitivity orders of magnitude greater than demonstrated by the known method, or whether he is simply misapplying, misreading, or misunderstanding the methodology and literature.

What we do know, is that whist somewhat similar, the Markiewicz methodology requires one further preparation step in the sample handling over the Epstein method, this is the step of liberating the cyanide from the carrier material via acidification (this step is not needed under the Epstein method, as the cyanide is already present in its simplest form in the solution, by design).

Per Markiewicz:
The sample under examination was placed in the internal part of the chamber and next acidified with 10% sulfuric acid solution and allowed to remain at room temperature (about 20°C) for 24 hrs. The separated hydrogen cyanide underwent a quantitative absorption by the lye solution present in the outer part of the chamber.
What we are left with is, not only does Markiewicz misstate (or overstate) his sensitivity, and not only does he fail to explain how this was achieved by orders of magnitude, he introduces additional complexity to the methodology requiring the samples to undergo extraction, with an unknown impact on the qualitative and quantitative results, along with the reliability of the chosen method.

Final note: Rudolf reproduces Markiewicz' 1994 results in section 8.3.2 and denotes readings below the established threshold as ND, and represents numerically those readings at or around the established threshold range (0.2ppm - 1.2ppm) using ppm notation, mg/kg
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Archie
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Re: Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

Post by Archie »

This is a quite technical point, but I think I follow those quotes from the paper and the math looks right. It's seems unlikely that Germar would have blundered here. Markiewicz in contrast I think had an obvious motive to fudge this: he didn't want to report a bunch of ND values since he knew that would look bad.

ConfusedJew tried to contest this, but he/GPT didn't make any substantial points that I can recall.
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HansHill
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Re: Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

Post by HansHill »

Archie wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 8:42 am This is a quite technical point, but I think I follow those quotes from the paper and the math looks right. It's seems unlikely that Germar would have blundered here. Markiewicz in contrast I think had an obvious motive to fudge this: he didn't want to report a bunch of ND values since he knew that would look bad.

ConfusedJew tried to contest this, but he/GPT didn't make any substantial points that I can recall.
Agreed - the most charitable we can be to Markiewicz here is that his paper introduces enough unnecessary uncertainties to obfuscate the usefulness of these findings.

The obfuscations lay primarily in:

- Sample handling requiring one additional step over Epstein's method, which has an unknown impact on findings
- Reporting the detection limit in Xμg / kg format (solid per solid) whereby Epstein reported his in Xmg / L (solid per liquid)
- Not explaining these discrepancies and leaving it open to interpretation / imagination / speculation how accuracy was enhanced

Uncertainties of this caliber imo are indefensible, especially when relied upon so heavily and singularly by Orthodoxy, and held up as the gold standard. Were Rudolf to have made such missteps, like I said in a different thread, he would be laughed off the face of the planet, if not outright jailed for hatescience.
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Hektor
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Re: Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

Post by Hektor »

Archie wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 8:42 am This is a quite technical point, but I think I follow those quotes from the paper and the math looks right. It's seems unlikely that Germar would have blundered here. Markiewicz in contrast I think had an obvious motive to fudge this: he didn't want to report a bunch of ND values since he knew that would look bad.

ConfusedJew tried to contest this, but he/GPT didn't make any substantial points that I can recall.
Markiewicz was a 'forensic expert' in courts in communist Poland. Testified in 3000 cases of which 5% were considered 'political'.... I couldn't find too many details on him. But one can find out what the role of 'expert witnesses' in Communist countries was... And what did guide them.
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Re: Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

Post by HansHill »

Hektor wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 8:02 pm
Archie wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 8:42 am This is a quite technical point, but I think I follow those quotes from the paper and the math looks right. It's seems unlikely that Germar would have blundered here. Markiewicz in contrast I think had an obvious motive to fudge this: he didn't want to report a bunch of ND values since he knew that would look bad.

ConfusedJew tried to contest this, but he/GPT didn't make any substantial points that I can recall.
Markiewicz was a 'forensic expert' in courts in communist Poland. Testified in 3000 cases of which 5% were considered 'political'.... I couldn't find too many details on him. But one can find out what the role of 'expert witnesses' in Communist countries was... And what did guide them.
There is a small bio of Jan Markiewicz on Codoh located here:

https://codoh.com/library/document/auth ... ewicz-jan/

I have seen some people attack the man and call him a fraud, or say he is unqualified because his PhD is not strictly in chemistry but rather the "natural sciences", which i think is a mistake, as it simply opens us into credentialism. Not saying you are doing this, but I have seen it.

Personally, I find it is more than adequate to "attack" Markiewicz' work rather than the man.

I've given some examples above for areas I feel are justified to attack Markiewicz on, and I will add one other which shockingly, Richard Green also repeats:
Rudolf would like to claim a pH of around 10 (a claim that we shall examine in further detail).
Note that if Rudolf were correct that the concentration of cyanide ions would be about 80% of
the initial HCN concentration. If the pH is 6-7 as measured by Markiewicz et al., it is about 1%
of the initial hydrogen cyanide concentration.

Green - Chemistry Is Not The Science
This is a shocking "mistake" for two PhDs to make, and once again Rudolf is absolutely correct here. Measuring the pH of concrete 30 years after it is poured tells us nothing about it's original pH. The analogy Rudolf gives us is; baking a pizza, letting it rest for 30 years and then measuring its temperature. Then claiming it was stone cold coming out of the oven (!)

Markiewicz is the original perpetrator of this "mistake", but Green is arguably more guilty for upholding this, many years after publication, and attempting to use it as a vector to attack Rudolf.
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Hektor
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Re: Markiewicz vs Epstein vs Rudolf - Detection Limits

Post by Hektor »

HansHill wrote: Fri Nov 28, 2025 9:35 am
Hektor wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 8:02 pm
Archie wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 8:42 am This is a quite technical point, but I think I follow those quotes from the paper and the math looks right. It's seems unlikely that Germar would have blundered here. Markiewicz in contrast I think had an obvious motive to fudge this: he didn't want to report a bunch of ND values since he knew that would look bad.

ConfusedJew tried to contest this, but he/GPT didn't make any substantial points that I can recall.
Markiewicz was a 'forensic expert' in courts in communist Poland. Testified in 3000 cases of which 5% were considered 'political'.... I couldn't find too many details on him. But one can find out what the role of 'expert witnesses' in Communist countries was... And what did guide them.
There is a small bio of Jan Markiewicz on Codoh located here:

https://codoh.com/library/document/auth ... ewicz-jan/

I have seen some people attack the man and call him a fraud, or say he is unqualified because his PhD is not strictly in chemistry but rather the "natural sciences", which i think is a mistake, as it simply opens us into credentialism. Not saying you are doing this, but I have seen it.
I was more interested in his role during Communist rule in Poland, not his credentials. I assume that he was knowledgeable and capable with regards to chemistry. But that he was in a way a child of communist rule in Poland where the truth of a matter was decided by whether it supported the cause of the party or not. Except for the communist angle, one should not forget that poles tried to exploit the Holocaust narrative for their own gains.

And yes, the issue is whether the method and conclusions were warranted... And indeed it was the methods that appeared to be odd for a number of reasons.

HansHill wrote: Fri Nov 28, 2025 9:35 am Personally, I find it is more than adequate to "attack" Markiewicz' work rather than the man.

I've given some examples above for areas I feel are justified to attack Markiewicz on, and I will add one other which shockingly, Richard Green also repeats:
Rudolf would like to claim a pH of around 10 (a claim that we shall examine in further detail).
Note that if Rudolf were correct that the concentration of cyanide ions would be about 80% of
the initial HCN concentration. If the pH is 6-7 as measured by Markiewicz et al., it is about 1%
of the initial hydrogen cyanide concentration.

Green - Chemistry Is Not The Science
This is a shocking "mistake" for two PhDs to make, and once again Rudolf is absolutely correct here. Measuring the pH of concrete 30 years after it is poured tells us nothing about it's original pH. The analogy Rudolf gives us is; baking a pizza, letting it rest for 30 years and then measuring its temperature. Then claiming it was stone cold coming out of the oven (!)

Markiewicz is the original perpetrator of this "mistake", but Green is arguably more guilty for upholding this, many years after publication, and attempting to use it as a vector to attack Rudolf.
Detection limits will be an issue, especially with the methods picked by the Cracow institute. Green should actually know better, but he decided to play along.... On the other hand he will admit that he doesn't really care about the forensic outcomes and the chemistry itself. It isn't relevant as they know that people were gassed there from 'witnesses' and of course from Jews privately missing relatives or friends, which however never were searched for like for people of other ethnicities after World War Two.
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