Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

[Archie]

Wiernik writing pro soviet articles is also circumstantial evidence of him being a soviet agent, which is circumstantial evidence for him having fabricated his treblinka testimony.

The difference here is you have one witness with this utterly circumstantial connection, and arguably not even due to the possibility of multiple Wierniks, whereas almost every german staffing the reinhardt camps and chelmmo came out of t4.

The cops caught him with the typewriter. That's not circumstantial.

It shows conclusively that he was a highly biased source. And he had a history of involvement in the production of propaganda pamphlets not unlike A Year in Treblinka. Despite this, you continue to take this material at face value, and you pretend it is a sincere and accurate account of real events from the camp.

Assuming it was the Treblinka Wiernik, I never denied that. What I denied is that it was direct evidence of him being a Soviet agent. That's circumstantial, and even assuming he was an agent that's still only circumstantial evidence of a fabricated testimony. Meanwhile we have SK Lange being documented as killing patients, with extensive testimony it was done through gas vans, and then they become SK Chelmno, and that connection doesn't lead you to bat an eye. Total hypocrisy.

So we are hypocrites because we don't agree with you about some totally unrelated point? How does that make sense?

There's much that has and could be said about euthanasia, but I will refrain here since this is an obvious derail on your part and you are clearly trying to avoid talking about Wiernik. I will take this as an admission that you are struggling to come up with a defense here.

Your story strongly depends on people like Wiernik. If these sources can't be defended, then your story collapses.

[bombsaway]

The cops caught him with the typewriter. That's not circumstantial.

It shows conclusively that he was a highly biased source. And he had a history of involvement in the production of propaganda pamphlets not unlike A Year in Treblinka. Despite this, you continue to take this material at face value, and you pretend it is a sincere and accurate account of real events from the camp.

Assuming it was the Treblinka Wiernik, I never denied that. What I denied is that it was direct evidence of him being a Soviet agent. That's circumstantial, and even assuming he was an agent that's still only circumstantial evidence of a fabricated testimony. Meanwhile we have SK Lange being documented as killing patients, with extensive testimony it was done through gas vans, and then they become SK Chelmno, and that connection doesn't lead you to bat an eye. Total hypocrisy.

So we are hypocrites because we don't agree with you about some totally unrelated point? How does that make sense?

There's much that has and could be said about euthanasia, but I will refrain here since this is an obvious derail on your part and you are clearly trying to avoid talking about Wiernik. I will take this as an admission that you are struggling to come up with a defense here.

Your story strongly depends on people like Wiernik. If these sources can't be defended, then your story collapses.

I use the same argument you use against the T4 connection - circumstantial evidence

Just because SK Lange's job was rounding up mental patients and killing them, doesn't mean they did the same thing immediately following this duty with Jews when they became SK Chelmno. It's circumstantial evidence.

Just because Wiernik was involved in production of pro communist materials, doesn't mean he fabricated the Treblinka testimony. It's circumstantial evidence (I would say very weak, compared to the SK Lange circumstantial evidence)

in other words, if you're saying the Wiernik stuff is strong evidence of him fabricating the testimony, you should also say the same thing about the SK lange and broader T4 connection. You make no such admission, which is a sign of your hypocrisy, motivated reasoning, delusions, whatever.

[Stubble]

Let me get this straight Bombsaway, instead of engaging with this exposure of a key witness as a Soviet propagandist, you want to simply engage in whataboutism with regard to gas van propaganda?

[pilgrimofdark]

As I recall, Mattogno does talk about the variations in Wiernik's statements in HH28 (e.g., the chlorine) but I don't think his intention was to provide an exhaustive list since again he was not writing a monograph dedicated entirely to Wiernik.

Yes, Mattogno pointed out the chlorine gassing + roof hatch in the (very short) handwritten draft manuscript of Rok w Treblince, and compared related accounts.

He didn't mention that the manuscript is clearly written in several different hands; i.e., that particular draft of Rok w Treblince was a collaborative writing project.

You may already know this, but cataloguing variations in texts and manuscripts is known as textual criticism. It comes up especially in biblical scholarship.

I was being a bit unserious. But also hoping this had been done (in English).

So far, the first English edition is missing many phrases. Some important, some innocuous.

Donat's translation is more complete, but still has a number of omissions.

I don't have a copy of the parallel Polish-English version Rok w Treblince / A Year in Treblinka published by Rada Ochrony Pamieci Walk i Meczenstwa in 2003. Wladyslaw Bartoszewski edited it, who also edited Willenburg's Surviving Treblinka. So if that one has similar omissions, then his English publication of Willenburg could become questionable.

But again, what's the harm in leaving the phrases in? If no harm, why do the English translators consistently leave them out?

What harm does it do to the official history of T-II that Wiernik observed from the Treblinka train station south of Malkinia a trainload of alive disheveled half-naked people traveling north away from the direction of T-II?

[Callafangers]

T4 formally ended in august 1941 so your supposition is that the staff were just sitting around for almost a year not doing anything.

T4 also had nothing to do with treating typhus or providing medical treatment. It was a top secret killing operation, often w the use of poison gas.

Mattogno documented that these staff had other roles in-between (e.g. medical services near the front), so they were far from "not doing anything" but were nonetheless highly-qualified.

Your claim it had nothing to do with treating typhus or providing medical treatment flies in the face of the priority of combating typhus along the border with Eastern territories, much like a demarcation line, which I just provided you direct evidence for.

It also flies in the face of the "innumerable diggings" at T-II which showed absolutely nothing other than buried junk property and a single grave (under a crater). This is proof of non-genocidal operations (otherwise, where are the corpses?).

It also flaps around in the face of the fact that these were medical staff -- a much more technical specialty than mere 'killing' -- such that their assigned work is far more likely to be of a medical nature, especially when coupled with the known initiative to prevent typhus outbreaks via strict measures along the border, and given the fact that it does not require much technical knowledge at all to shove humans into a 'gas chamber'.

Your view that all of this medical staff would be brought to an isolated border region to assist with such murder operations makes zero sense. Did they attend nursing or medical school, simply to stand with their thumbs up their asses while Jews were sneakily lured into 'chambers'? How does this even remotely make sense?

They were medical staff, typhus was rampant and a threat both from the East and from Jews in closed quarters (e.g. Warsaw ghetto), with these AR camps along the demarcation line serving as important facilities for disease control, in addition to their primary role under Aktion Reinhardt to manage confiscated Jewish property.

The thing is, you might not like this interpretation, but it is documented by contemporary, credible sources -- your view is not.

[Stubble]

[...]

I understand this was directed at Archie, but, I'd like to explore the first point with you a bit.

When I looked at the 'deposition' with the 'chlorine hatches' after a link was provided to it from the ghetto fighters house, I too assumed multiple hands.

After looking at other samples of his writing, I think the sloppy parts may be there for 'dramatic effect'.

There is a consistency with the forming of specific letters, like the 'k' for example, that show uniformity in their ununiformity. In both hands the character is rendered 3 different ways. This is true for the map legend as well for example.

Currently, I am thinking that this may indeed be from his hand.

I still need to explore the 'Warsaw Circle' and 'warsawwood' angles. There is a lot of overlap with the theater. I mark this as odd considering there is the same kind of Soviet and jewish theater overlap in Ukraine. Just look at who gave us the testimony for Babi Yar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Pronicheva

If I didn't know any better, I might think people in the theater were a valuable resource for recruitment by the Soviet for manufacturing atrocity propaganda, perspective recruits being familiar already with stage drama and writing stories...

[pilgrimofdark]

When I looked at the 'deposition' with the 'chlorine hatches' after a link was provided to it from the ghetto fighters house, I too assumed multiple hands.

After looking at other samples of his writing, I think the sloppy parts may be there for 'dramatic effect'.

Looking at whole words like "Oboz," "Treblinka," "Dnia," and others, I see variations in the style. More analysis from others would be valuable.

For anyone who wants to take a look at just those 3 pages of the document that are the handwritten manuscript, here they are:

Page #1

Spoiler

Page #2

Spoiler

Page #3

Spoiler

[bombsaway]

Your view that all of this medical staff would be brought to an isolated border region to assist with such murder operations makes zero sense. Did they attend nursing or medical school, simply to stand with their thumbs up their asses while Jews were sneakily lured into 'chambers'? How does this even remotely make sense?

They were medical staff, typhus was rampant and a threat both from the East and from Jews in closed quarters (e.g. Warsaw ghetto), with these AR camps along the demarcation line serving as important facilities for disease control, in addition to their primary role under Aktion Reinhardt to manage confiscated Jewish property.

T4 wasn't a medical operation, quite the opposite, unless by medical treatment one means killing. Nevertheless, which medical professionals were involved with Reinhardt camps / Chelmno? Names please.

[bombsaway]

Let me get this straight Bombsaway, instead of engaging with this exposure of a key witness as a Soviet propagandist, you want to simply engage in whataboutism with regard to gas van propaganda?

It's not quite whataboutism, I'm trying to frame my argument in a way that you can understand, to cut through the delusions and motivated reasoning. You consider that SK Lange documented function of mass killing mental patients to be circumstantial evidence, and thus not very good. Your case against Wiernik also relies on circumstantial evidence.

[Stubble]

No, I consider it bullshit, there is some nuance you seem to be missing.

You think I believe Einsatzgruppe VI operated 'homicidal gas vans' disguised as coffee delivery trucks.

I don't.

[bombsaway]

No, I consider it bullshit, there is some nuance you seem to be missing.

You think I believe Einsatzgruppe VI operated 'homicidal gas vans' disguised as coffee delivery trucks.

I don't.

It was SK Lange. The witness testimonies make clear the nature of their killing operations, but regardless, even if you think those are lies the documents paint a clear picture: they were a mobile killing unit, going from place to place "evacuating" patients. This is coded or euphemistic language (another coincidence?) but I don't think any reasonable person could deny that this evacuation was homicidal. German documents also say they were liquidating these patients, I don't think that's coded language, but whatever.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html

if you dispute my interpretation of the documents, let me know, I'll start a new thread.

[Stubble]

Of course it needs a thread Bombsaway.

I'm still knee deep in transport and logistics documents as well as labor and rationing documents looking for unaccounted for persons otherwise missing and presumed dead. Otherwise I'd have already penned one and linked it here.

I have more diligence due however before trying to make that thread. Hence I opine that it would detract from my search for missing jews, not in the ground at the Bug river sites.

[bombsaway]

So you think SK Lange's duty was traveling around Poland moving mental patients to mysterious locations, (referred to as special or burdensome tasks / evacuation / liquidation) ?

interesting, I'll wait for your thread

[Archie]

Assuming it was the Treblinka Wiernik, I never denied that. What I denied is that it was direct evidence of him being a Soviet agent. That's circumstantial, and even assuming he was an agent that's still only circumstantial evidence of a fabricated testimony. Meanwhile we have SK Lange being documented as killing patients, with extensive testimony it was done through gas vans, and then they become SK Chelmno, and that connection doesn't lead you to bat an eye. Total hypocrisy.

So we are hypocrites because we don't agree with you about some totally unrelated point? How does that make sense?

There's much that has and could be said about euthanasia, but I will refrain here since this is an obvious derail on your part and you are clearly trying to avoid talking about Wiernik. I will take this as an admission that you are struggling to come up with a defense here.

Your story strongly depends on people like Wiernik. If these sources can't be defended, then your story collapses.

I use the same argument you use against the T4 connection - circumstantial evidence

Just because SK Lange's job was rounding up mental patients and killing them, doesn't mean they did the same thing immediately following this duty with Jews when they became SK Chelmno. It's circumstantial evidence.

Just because Wiernik was involved in production of pro communist materials, doesn't mean he fabricated the Treblinka testimony. It's circumstantial evidence (I would say very weak, compared to the SK Lange circumstantial evidence)

in other words, if you're saying the Wiernik stuff is strong evidence of him fabricating the testimony, you should also say the same thing about the SK lange and broader T4 connection. You make no such admission, which is a sign of your hypocrisy, motivated reasoning, delusions, whatever.

It's not the "same argument." They are completely different contexts. "Circumstantial" is just a type of evidence. Circumstantial evidence could be strong or weak in a given instance. Ultimately, people draw conclusions based on all known information, along with various priors, not just one thing. There is no reason whatsoever that disbelieving in Wiernik simultaneously requires one to accept whatever you are trying to argue about Lange. Your Lange argument (which is off-topic) has to stand on its own merits. You keep saying things like "you guys don't bat an eye about X, Y, Z." Why do you think we have ignored this point? We have heard the T4 arguments and we do not find them convincing in light of all the other evidence. The T4 thing in my mind is fine as a prima facie argument. Like, ok, I'm listening. Let's see the rest of your case. Aaaaand the rest of it is guys like Wiernik. Womp, womp. And your 50 Olympic swimming pools of ash turns out to to have like four photos of a few bones to support it. Your T4 thing is simply not good enough given that foundation of your case has been destroyed.

Back on topic. I do not agree with your dismissal of the new Wiernik evidence as circumstantial. We already had good reason to suspect this. The original publisher in America was the "American Representation of the General Jewish Workers' Union of Poland" which is some socialist thing. Plus the style of the 45 page novella is quite sensational and propagandistic. Guards who rip children apart with their bare hands. Asides about the Germans being guilty of the Katyn massacre. This story was that this guy was some random carpenter who spent a death camp for a year and had bullets bouncing off of him during his miraculous escape. The new results confirm, directly, not circumstantially, that he was not some random apolitical carpenter but rather he was involved in producing subversive communist propaganda before the war. To be clear though, Wiernik had already been debunked before this. This just demolishes him even further.

[Archie]

Anybody want to guess why he moved away from Chlorine as the 'instrument of genocide' at Treblinka II?

He moved to Steam as a claim after Chlorine didn't he?

Personally, I think he read the Soviet Chlorine from quick lime propaganda and so initially based his story off that. Then, he ran into the polish underground 'reports' on steam chambers and so changed his narrative, eventually evolving to a Diesel Engine.

Of course, I also think he was a propagandist and not at any point an internee.

pilgrimofdark may have found confirmation of my hunch. It can be read here;

viewtopic.php?p=15984#p15984

Gee Bombsaway, you might have been right about reading contemporary newspapers to resolve a tighter picture of events...

Did any of the Wiernik believers come up with a good explanation for the chlorine point which was raised on page two? If so I missed it.

How would he have "corrected" this AFTER he left the camp if we are to pretend his account was based on direct personal experience? He saw the tank engine but due to trauma he temporarily forgot about it but then recovered the memory in time for the 1944 publication?