Callafangers' statements of fact / rebuttable presumptions about Belzec and Sobibor

[bombsaway]

....
I think you have to show them the studies are incriminating to some degree and don't obviously refute orthodoxy.

Not really, the studies show that there were some people buried inside the assumed time frame. Now that's expected in a war zone / camps with prisoners at least to some degree. There are/were indeed some records on the mortality in camps... And revisionist acknowledge those. So, finding remains indicating that several thousand corpses may have been buried there, doesn't contradict or shatter the Revisionist Thesis at all. In fact it would be strange if NOTHING was found there. What isn't found there is what you'd expect, if those sites were indeed extermination centers as is widely alleged. They didn't even have crematoria nor mass disposal facilities although the technology was indeed available at the time.

In his grave descriptions at Belzec Kola specifies thousands of cubic meters of crematory content, arranged in layers in huge graves. If this was commonplace show me other sites that have this feature.

[Hektor]

....
I think you have to show them the studies are incriminating to some degree and don't obviously refute orthodoxy.

Not really, the studies show that there were some people buried inside the assumed time frame. Now that's expected in a war zone / camps with prisoners at least to some degree. There are/were indeed some records on the mortality in camps... And revisionist acknowledge those. So, finding remains indicating that several thousand corpses may have been buried there, doesn't contradict or shatter the Revisionist Thesis at all. In fact it would be strange if NOTHING was found there. What isn't found there is what you'd expect, if those sites were indeed extermination centers as is widely alleged. They didn't even have crematoria nor mass disposal facilities although the technology was indeed available at the time.

In his grave descriptions at Belzec Kola specifies thousands of cubic meters of crematory content, arranged in layers in huge graves. If this was commonplace show me other sites that have this feature.

Really? If that was the case why hasn't anything like this been visually shown here?


All what has been shown in this thread for instance is soil from layers that could contain some remains. But nothing like 'cubic meters of crematory content'.

[bombsaway]

Really? If that was the case why hasn't anything like this been visually shown here?


All what has been shown in this thread for instance is soil from layers that could contain some remains. But nothing like 'cubic meters of crematory content'.

Yes, that they haven't been evidenced other than the grave descriptions and core sample illustrations is Keen's main argument. The argument here is about whether Kola lied about these results, made methodological errors, or they're accurate.

[Callafangers]

Where I'm at with it, is that's 'grave 5'...

I mean, how much clean fill is that?

There's, nothing there.

It was surprising for them to go through and say:

'Grave 1 is not a mass grave'

'Grave 2 is not a mass grave'

Etc.

The biggest problem with the 'Huge Mass Graves' hypothesis is, there are to date, no 'Huge Mass Graves'.

For the record, before seriously investigating the questions posed by Keen, I had just assumed there was some legitimacy to the 'Huge Mass Graves' claim. Imagine my surprise to discover, there's not...

Look at Kola's description of grave 5 some time.

What you are looking at in photographs is NOT how the 'graves' were determined. There were no invasive excavations permitted other than by drilling. At most, you are seeing diggings up until the exact point where corpse material starts. The Chief Rabbi of Poland explicitly forbade digging into graves.

I've reviewed all of Kola's descriptions; I have a spreadsheet which I use to analyze each of his graves there, which also incorporates all of the calculations Mattogno discusses in his work.

Here is the grave no. 5 description:

[EDIT: Fixed, thanks bombsaway:]

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 x 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... camps.html

After closer review, you may indeed be onto something regarding this grave having much less cremains than I would have at first assumed based on the initial Kola report (which I think was done in 2007). A later, 2015 report (Mazurek et al.) once again excavated this same site and shows that Kola may have overstated his findings:

The situation is similar in the case of mass grave no. 5. It has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range, which was determined with drillings carried out in 2001. No burnt human bones have been found in the subsurface layers. At a depth of about 2 m a great number of not burnt human bones covered by the clear, almost white sand, has been found. After reaching the level where human bones were found, the works stopped and were documented. Probably it is a skeletal mass grave.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... lementary/

Note that the top 2 meters (!) of soil did not contain burnt human remains. That's more than 40% of the entire grave volume wiped away by these updated findings. [EDIT: I just noticed that even at 2 meters, Mazurek reports here the bones found were NOT burnt -- now highlighted in red above -- further impacting grave volume constraints!] Mazurek reports stopping his excavation the moment these bones were first detected (at 2 meters depth). Earlier, he explains why:

Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland, Mr. Alex Schwarz; that is to say they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large quantities or in situ [in their original location], i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature.

In other words, they were only allowed to dig until they detected corpse remains reflecting "obvious traces" of a grave. What this means, in effect, is they were forbidden to quantify.

Nonetheless, between the drill samples (which were permitted to be more invasive) and these supplementary findings of superficial diggings, we can make a reasoned assessment and attempt to quantify a possible range of corpse material within the apparent volume.

With this latest reduction to grave no. 5, I'd lower my Sobibor estimate even further (from ~10-40,000 to ~9-36,000, if charitable in core sample interpretation [EDIT: Likely even less, given NOT burnt remains found in grave 5, further impacting volume constraints]). I do not believe Mazurek, Kola, and their entire teams are all conspiring liars (there are plenty of sincere 'Holocaust' archaeologists and researchers to go around), and so I think they are mostly honest (even if over-stating or "loose" in interpretation, i.e. incompetent) in their indication of when/where corpse material has been found -- but what they have inadvertently done is prove "no Holocaust" at these locations. They've now "sealed" the forensic arguments and necessary conclusions.

[Stubble]

Correct, clean fill, not 'layers of cremains' and then 'wax fat'.

There is a shorter summary of grave 5 in the HC blog link you provided earlier. That 'homogeneous layer' is said to be 'corpses in wax fat'.

Regardless, they when they opened her up, they found yard upon yard of clean fill, a shoebox full of ash, and some hair...

Trying to be forgiving, I initially argued with Keen 'well, he was just mistaken, and he misinterpreted his findings, if he had lied about it, he would have gone big'.

Keen produced more and more examples of blatant falsifications until it reached a point where position that this was 'holocaust goggles' became indefensible.

/shrug

The play appears to be, since there is basically nothing there, say there is a little there and hope revisionists buy it and use piles of a few thousand corpses to keep the myth alive even if not fully intact.

There is literally just a handful of human remains at that site man.

My initial estimate for Sobibor was @~ 25,000. Now, I'm not firm on that. I'd still consider it maximum.

[Callafangers]

There is literally just a handful of human remains at that site man.

It is honestly staggering how clear-cut and conclusive the revisionist position is regarding the forensics at these sites, regardless of how one interprets core samples and therefore where on the spectrum between Keen<--->Mattogno one lies. The bottom-line is that the positions of Hans, Muehlenkamp (hence, Nessie, SanityCheck/Terry, etc.) on the forensics at these sites are no longer remotely tenable, which is why they have pretty much "evacuated themselves to the East" in this debate entirely.

There is no defensible stance on the forensics (corpse quantities) at any 'Holocaust' burial site, but especially at those locations where modern excavations have actually taken place -- nothing but deafening silence from all competent exterminationists on this for almost a decade.

Thanks go out to Kola, Mazurek, Judge Łukaszkiewicz, and the others who have disproven the Holocaust for generations to come.

[bombsaway]

After closer review, you may indeed be onto something regarding this grave having much less cremains than I would have at first assumed based on the initial Kola report (which I think was done in 2007). A later, 2015 report (Mazurek et al.) once again excavated this same site and shows that Kola may have overstated his findings:

Why are you guys comparing grave 5 in the sobibor study to grave 5 at belzec?

LOL

Kola (at Sobibor):

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 x 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.

this is the grave description from the 2015 study with 6 included because it is judged to be similar

The eastern and western range of the mass grave no. 6, which is known from the
survey research conducted in 2001, has been confirmed. From the ceiling its crematory nature
has been clearly confirmed, as from the depth of about 10 cm, in the backfill consisting of
grey sand, numerous, mainly white or blue burnt small human bones have been discovered.

The situation is similar in the case of mass grave no. 5. It has been reconnoitered only
from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,
which was determined with drillings carried out in 2001. No burnt human bones have been
found in the subsurface layers. At a depth of about 2 m a great number of not burnt human
bones covered by the clear, almost white sand, has been found. After reaching the level where
human bones were found, the works stopped and were documented. Probably it is a skeletal
mass grave.

The grave was studied incompletely it seems "it has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side" so it doesn't seem fair to base any comparative study on this

https://chatgpt.com/share/692a39fb-6dac ... 817e7deca5

ChatGPT summary of the graves + discovered crematoria. Says assessing victim count from this study alone is silly due to stuff like this

Deliberate excavation limits: they stopped digging as soon as large numbers of in-situ human remains were reached, in line with religious and conservation requirements. So the central and deepest parts of many graves and cremation pits are not fully exposed; only edges and “ceiling” layers were examined.

but large scale cremation is indicated, because

the archaeology shows big, purpose-built burning installations used repeatedly and across a wide area, not just a few small fires. In particular:

Large ground crematoria: Long, several-metre-wide bands of intensely heat-altered ground, with burnt human bone embedded down to 2–3+ meters, show that many bodies were burned in place, repeatedly, on fixed structures—not a one-off disposal.

Stratified cremation layers: In some cremation graves you get multiple distinct layers of burnt human bone and ash, separated by cleaner sand. That only makes sense if the same pit was used again and again to burn new loads of corpses.

Multiple cremation features, not one: There are several big crematoria, cremation graves (including the L-shaped 8/15), small cremation pits, ash-filled shovel holes, and a well and refuse pit later filled with burnt human remains. The repetition and spread of such features indicate an organized cremation system, not isolated incidents.

Association with the killing/sonderkommando zone: These cremation features cluster in and around the core killing sector and the Sonderkommando barracks, exactly where you’d expect systematic corpse disposal.

Taken together, the scale, depth, repetition, and spatial extent of burnt human remains and heat-altered ground are enough—on archaeological grounds alone—to conclude that large-scale cremation of many bodies took place at the camp.

[Stubble]

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 1#_Sobibor

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 x 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.

For clarity, this is from the bore study.

I apologize for not catching that the other link and quote was from Belzec. I did say that the other link had a more brief description however. I suppose I should have vetted the post from Fangers better.

Ultimately however, the findings of the excavation are still incongruent with the bore study.

/shrug

[Callafangers]

Why are you guys comparing grave 5 in the sobibor study to grave 5 at belzec?

LOL

this is the correct grave 5 description, with 6 included because it is judged to be "similar"

The eastern and western range of the mass grave no. 6, which is known from the
survey research conducted in 2001, has been confirmed. From the ceiling its crematory nature
has been clearly confirmed, as from the depth of about 10 cm, in the backfill consisting of
grey sand, numerous, mainly white or blue burnt small human bones have been discovered.

The situation is similar in the case of mass grave no. 5. It has been reconnoitered only
from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,
which was determined with drillings carried out in 2001. No burnt human bones have been
found in the subsurface layers. At a depth of about 2 m a great number of not burnt human
bones covered by the clear, almost white sand, has been found. After reaching the level where
human bones were found, the works stopped and were documented. Probably it is a skeletal
mass grave.

The grave was studied incompletely it seems "it has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side" so it doesn't seem fair to base any comparative study on this

Oopsies, I copy-pasted the wrong Grave 5 from the HC Blog link, thanks bombsaway. However the fix doesn't change any of my previous analysis. I fixed the quote in my last post (Edited in green, see above). It was a similar depth (4.5m vs 4.9m) at Grave 5 at Belzec and Sobibor, coincidentally. And the drill contents were similar as well. Hence, my prior analysis applies unchanged. Here is the correct grave description per Kola:

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 x 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.

As for your view that it was "reconnoitered only from the eastern side", this doesn't diminish anything at all. Kola's previous affirmation was that the upper layers had "burnt body remains" however Mazurek shows that the entire eastern side had zero bones down to 2m depth.

Moreover, the "eastern side" is actually almost the entire east-west grave range, as stated explicitly by Mazurek:

It has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,

[bombsaway]

If the cremains were dumped into the middle or one side only, the 2015 study would not have detected them. This is the grave you ID as the clearest evidence of incongruence?

[Callafangers]

If the cremains were dumped into the middle or one side only, the 2015 study would not have detected them. This is the grave you ID as the clearest evidence of incongruence?

Absolutely not. Did you not read what I just wrote, bombsaway?

Mazurek excavated almost the entire east-west length of grave no. 5. Here it is again:

It has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,

Thus, if cremains were dumped into the middle at a level above 2m depth, he would have caught this. It isn't there. And the remains that are there are unburned, making this grave's volume essentially useless for arguing a 'Holocaust'.

Also, I have only specifically reviewed congruence between Mazurek and Kola for this particular grave. I haven't criticized them in this way before, instead simply gave priority to Kola's drills, only compared to Mazurek for specific questions that arose. I expect I will find similar incongruences in other graves once critically examined, further challenging Kola's homogeneity claims.

[bombsaway]

If the cremains were dumped into the middle or one side only, the 2015 study would not have detected them. This is the grave you ID as the clearest evidence of incongruence?

Absolutely not. Did you not read what I just wrote, bombsaway?

Mazurek excavated almost the entire east-west length of grave no. 5. Here it is again:

It has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,

Thus, if cremains were dumped into the middle at a level above 2m depth, he would have caught this. It isn't there. And the remains that are there are unburned, making this grave's volume essentially useless for arguing a 'Holocaust'.

Also, I have only specifically reviewed congruence between Mazurek and Kola for this particular grave. I haven't criticized them in this way before, instead simply gave priority to Kola's drills, only compared to Mazurek for specific questions that arose. I expect I will find similar incongruences in other graves once critically examined, further challenging Kola's homogeneity claims.

I don't read this as meaning the most of the grave area was surveyed, sorry "The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range", it's unclear and probably a translation issue, but I would say it is in reference to the sides of the grave being different lengths, which you can see is evident from Kola's description "Horizontally, it's irregular"

[Callafangers]

It has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,

I don't read this as meaning the most of the grave area was surveyed, sorry "The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range", it's unclear and probably a translation issue...

No, bombsaway, you're a wiggly fellow but you don't get to wriggle your way out of this one.

If something is worked through from the east side, this means that it is moving west. There is nothing confusing about this language. If the range in that direction is slightly smaller from the entire [grave] range, then the direction that was worked through is almost the entire grave range.

This is clear-cut. But keep explaining away and let readers decide.

If you think there's a translation issue, the burden is on you to demonstrate this.

[bombsaway]

It has been reconnoitered only from the eastern side. The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range,

I don't read this as meaning the most of the grave area was surveyed, sorry "The range in this direction is slightly smaller from the grave’s range", it's unclear and probably a translation issue...

No, bombsaway, you're a wiggly fellow but you don't get to wriggle your way out of this one.

If something is worked through from the east side, this means that it is moving west. There is nothing confusing about this language. If the range in that direction is slightly smaller from the entire [grave] range, then the direction that was worked through is almost the entire grave range.

This is clear-cut. But keep explaining away and let readers decide.

If you think there's a translation issue, the burden is on you to demonstrate this.

I think it's just unclear that the direction was "worked through" as you say.

Actually it's explicit they didn't do this lol, and you quoted this earlier!

“Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland… they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large quantities or in situ, i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature.”

Very curious as to how you will interpret this, I've never seen you give up on a point, no matter how unreasonable.

[Callafangers]

I think it's just unclear that the direction was "worked through" as you say.

Actually it's explicit they didn't do this lol, and you quoted this earlier!

“Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland… they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large quantities or in situ, i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature.”

Very curious as to how you will interpret this, I've never seen you give up on a point, no matter how unreasonable.

bombsaway, you are a crackhead. Stop smoking crack.

He is referring to the 'boundaries' as defined by the Chief Rabbi of Poland which had to do with excavating the graves until traces of large quantities of human remains (or remains which have thus far been untouched) are reached. Highlighted in green above.

How are you this terrible at reading comprehension? This is embarrassing.