A simple Sobibor Challenge for "Revisionists"

[Keen]

As has been the case a number of times of late, we will use quotes from the serial dodger and gross hypocrite Callafangers (AKA - The Gift That Keeps On Giving) as a foudation for the content of this post / thread.

Callafangers:

Archaeological excavations at Sobibor... guided by Jewish law (stopping at bones)... there is an abundance of unburnt human remains found in these graves, especially Graves 3-5... when corpse remains were found... Even in areas where grave/corpse material was found... Mazurek and his team [said] "most of these remains aren't even burnt"! ...Mazurek's team were only required to stop digging if/when they came across large quantities of corpse remains in situ... they did not stop immediately at remains, given the Chief Rabbi only required them to stop at large quantities of remains or those in situ. This is explicit... This entailed needing certainty about where actual corpse materials were at in the largest amounts, which means not stopping the entire dig in an area due to a single bone chip or a few... note that Grave 5 is entirely unburnt remains... Mazurek is limited by his inability to dig deeper into corpse remains when found in heavy concentrations... Mazurek's explicit confirmation that only sparse/patchy burials are identified... We are studying the forensics here. I am not "finding reasons to believe" anything other than what is described and documented in the forensic investigations... the evidence fits the revisionist view like a glove.

Of note here is the fact that one would have to dig down and into "a large quantity of unburnt corpse remains" before realizing that what they were digging into actually was "a large quantity of unburnt corpse remains."

Of course, that begs the question: What is the definition of "a large quantity" / "an abundance" / "heavy concentrations" of unburnt corpse remains?

Will the exterminationist light / revisionists give us a working definition? (Don't hold your breath.)

Here's a simple question for them (That they will surely dodge) that can clarify things for them:

Does "a large quantity" / "an abundance" / "heavy concentration" of "unburnt corpse remains" mean the remains of - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 people - ???

And this brings me to the latest challenge that the exterminationist light revisionists will undoubtedly tuck tail and run away from:

Give us the list of all the people, who you know for a fact, actually saw, with their own eyes - "a large quantity / heavy concentrations" of "unburnt corpse remains" within Sobibors alleged "huge mass graves" 1-7

And write it out as a statement of fact, which is written as, and can be defined as - a rebuttable presumption - that can be - LEGALLY ACCEPTED AS TRUE - in a U.S. court.

[Keen]

I refuse to beleive in the existence of any alleged physical entity

that I am not allowed to see.

Callafangers:

There is an abundance of unburnt human remains found in these graves, especially Graves 3-5.
Mazurek is limited by his inability to dig deeper into corpse remains when found in heavy concentrations.
We are studying the forensics here.
It is honestly staggering how clear-cut and conclusive the revisionist position is regarding the forensics at these sites.

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #3:



Callafangers, are we looking at the remains of - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 people - ???

Can you point out exactly where the "large quantity / heavy concentration" of "unburnt human remains" are?


Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #4:



Callafangers, are we looking at the remains of - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 people - ???

Can you point out exactly where the "large quantity / heavy concentration" of "unburnt human remains" are?

[Callafangers]

I refuse to beleive in the existence of any alleged physical entity that I am not allowed to see.

I respect that you are now making clear why you have kept on the same approach all these years. I agree with you that we have to be especially critical given the political considerations. In that sense, yes, I am still skeptical of any 'corpses' claimed, since the photography of them is minimal.

On the other hand, do you suppose an entire team with archaeological expertise all worked together to lie about their findings, even though these findings actually disprove a 'Holocaust'?

Would you say there is - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 liars on Mazurek's team?

[Keen]

I refuse to beleive in the existence of any alleged physical entity that I am not allowed to see.

I respect that you are now making clear why you have kept on the same approach all these years. I agree with you that we have to be especially critical given the political considerations. In that sense, yes, I am still skeptical of any 'corpses' claimed, since the photography of them is minimal.

On the other hand, do you suppose an entire team with archaeological expertise all worked together to lie about their findings, even though these findings actually disprove a 'Holocaust'?

Would you say there is - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 liars on Mazurek's team?

I'll make a deal with you Callafangers; if you answer all the questions that you have cravenly dodged in this quarantine section, I'll answer your question.

Deal?

Let's start with this one here:

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; at least one grave containing the remains of at least 1 person has been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - ??

The rest will be collected here:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=640

[Keen]

Would you say there is - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 liars on Mazurek's team?

Now that I have that little task done (Thank you for the motivation Callafangers), and even though you haven't answered any of those questions (and I'm sure you never will) it is my belief that every single one of the major players knew exactly what they were doing - which was participating in a fraudulent "archaeological" charade that was a malicious attempt to create a cognitive illusion and falsely allege that they had "proven" that the Sobibor "holocaust" really was true, which fooled the likes of you and your extermination light / convergence of unsubstantiated allegations ilk.

But you people think that you're too smart (HA!) to have been fooled by such a big-lie. Which only proves the old adage:

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

The bigger the lie - the more they believe.

I also believe, and have proven, with 100% certainty, that:

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

Now, back to the OP:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=639

Chop chop Callafangers, you've go work to do.

[Callafangers]

Would you say there is - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 liars on Mazurek's team?

Now that I have that little task done (Thank you for the motivation Callafangers), and even though you haven't answered any of those questions (and I'm sure you never will) it is my belief that every single one of the major players knew exactly what they were doing - which was participating in a fraudulent "archaeological" charade that was a malicious attempt to create a cognitive illusion and falsely allege that they had "proven" that the Sobibor "holocaust" really was true, which fooled the likes of you and your extermination light / convergence of unsubstantiated allegations ilk.

Listen up, bucko -- I have always acknowledged that you may be correct. I just don't think your position is sufficiently convincing for most people. And it is most people I aim to convince.

[Keen]

Listen up, bucko

Callafangers,

Give us the list of all the people, who you know for a fact, actually saw, with their own eyes - "a large quantity / heavy concentrations" of "unburnt corpse remains" within Sobibors alleged "huge mass graves" 1-7

And write it out as a statement of fact, which is written as, and can be defined as - a rebuttable presumption - that can be - LEGALLY ACCEPTED AS TRUE - in a U.S. court.

And answer this simple question:

Does "a large quantity" / "an abundance" / "heavy concentration" of "unburnt corpse remains" mean the remains of - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 people - ???

Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #3:



Callafangers, are we looking at the remains of - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 people - ???

Can you point out exactly where the "large quantity / heavy concentration" of "unburnt human remains" are?


Callafangers, Here is a photo of Kola's grave #4:



Callafangers, are we looking at the remains of - MORE THAN - or - THE SAME AS - or - LESS THAN - 6 people - ???

Can you point out exactly where the "large quantity / heavy concentration" of "unburnt human remains" are?

Oh, and there seems to be just a couple of questions waiting for you here as well:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=640

[Keen]

I just don't think your position is sufficiently convincing for most people.

You can't get much more convincing than this Callafangers:

OPENING / FUNDAMENTAL STATEMENT OF FACT: It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 100 graves in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these five sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

Note: Using the information presented on this website and applying legal standards used in U.S. courts, the above opening / fundamental statement of fact, which is written as, and can be defined as - a rebuttable presumption - can be - LEGALLY - ACCEPTED - AS - TRUE - in a U.S. court.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

Or this:

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see
just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

[Callafangers]

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see
just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

I'll give you full credit for this one. This is a fair point. I've not seen any single grave that I could say, "hey, that's the exemplary one that shows the kind of Jewish burial scale we are talking about!"

Yes, admittedly, this fact alone lines up more with the whole thing being a hoax.

Nonetheless, it is an uphill battle to convince the world of this, as you know. I'm interested not only in proving one possible or even plausible reality, but also in thoroughly considering all possibilities and exposing them for what they are (or are not). My goal is to show the world what the 'Holocaust' really is: completely untenable, from any rational angle.

You aren't wrong, Keen, at least not necessarily. I just think your angle is not the only one that needs exploring.

[bombsaway]

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see
just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

I'll give you full credit for this one. This is a fair point. I've not seen any single grave that I could say, "hey, that's the exemplary one that shows the kind of Jewish burial scale we are talking about!"

Yes, admittedly, this fact alone lines up more with the whole thing being a hoax.

Nonetheless, it is an uphill battle to convince the world of this, as you know. I'm interested not only in proving one possible or even plausible reality, but also in thoroughly considering all possibilities and exposing them for what they are (or are not). My goal is to show the world what the 'Holocaust' really is: completely untenable, from any rational angle.

You aren't wrong, Keen, at least not necessarily. I just think your angle is not the only one that needs exploring.

In the revisionist frame it's either

A) the studies were hoaxed and the archeologists were liars, but somehow fabricated studies that quite obviously show the mainstream story was false

B) numerous teams were given multiple chances to study each site utilizing both ability to drill freely throughout and do full excavations of edges, yet somehow published results which again show orthodoxy to be false

or a mix of both

Both cases don't make sense, especially in light of the incredible amount of information control the hoaxsters must have demonstrated in preventing evidence of resettlement or of coerced witness testimonies from emerging. It is senseless that a group of people would be able to have TOTAL control over publishing of data from any of the millions of hundreds of thousands of survivors of resettlement, and fuck up this badly with the grave studies, either by letting trained professionals in to study sites which they knew would not evidence orthodoxy if honestly reported on, or by faking results which also disprove.

From the orthodox perspective the results can be explained simply.

Revisionists (due to motivated reasoning and other biases) will see whatever they want to see out of these studies. If they want them to be fake they will clearly see that, if they want them to disprove orthodoxy as honest representations of the grave sites, they will see that too.

[Keen]

You aren't wrong, Keen

That is the understatement of the year.

And If I'm not wrong, then that means Mr. Gerdes is right.

It also means that the revisionist position on Sobibor is wrong.

I take it that the revisionists are comming to their senses about Sobibor, and are rethinking their position.

This is the most recent revisionist position on Sobibor:

There are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor...), with significant corpse quantities found... at Sobibor, there have been hundreds of core samples, dozens of which contain at least some amount of corpse material... [We find] some of their reports on corpses or corpse material found to be possibly sincere... Photographs at least increase the probability that a sincere research effort has taken place... This aligns with what the authors claim in their written reports... [We] take some of their reports on corpses or corpse material found to be possibly sincere, and adjust [our] estimates accordingly... There is a lot that can be said about the contents of the reports but [we] lean toward the interpretation that they were most likely well-intentioned. And as it turns out, their findings align well with non-incriminating corpse quantities... most people are going to find core sample arguments (and extrapolation) compelling... I've reviewed all of Kola's descriptions; I have a spreadsheet which I use to analyze each of his graves there, which also incorporates all of the calculations Mattogno discusses in his work... As for a more specific breakdown, here you go (for Sobibor):

Core samples were in fact taken and at least roughly reflect the extremely-vague descriptions of material reported in each... If we interpret the records of corpse remains as actually being so, this can easily bring us into a reasonable extrapolation of some tens of thousands of total corpses (but likely no more than ~15,000 or so, and definitely fewer than ~40-50,000, all things considered). It could be even less than ~10,000, depending on how often Kola's team mistook other burnt/charred material for corpse material... With this latest reduction to grave no. 5, I'd lower my Sobibor estimate even further (from ~10-40,000 to ~9-36,000... there is also an abundance of unburnt human remains found in these graves, especially Graves 3-5

It is honestly staggering how clear-cut and conclusive the revisionist position is regarding the forensics at these sites

If you want to challenge what has been provided, you will need to at least take on the largest graves and make some attempt to estimate what is actually there, based on the descriptions provided between Kola/Mazurek.

I had a break down of these figures I was going to post, but given the very recent comments by Callafangers, including comments made about the fraudulent "ash mound", I thought I would give revisionists a chance to rethink and rephrase it.

So what exactly is the current revisionsit position on Sobibor?