Sobibór: Kola-Mazurek Discrepancies and Implications

[Nessie]

You cannot produce a single worker eyewitness from the camp to support your narrative, or evidence c250,000 who arrived, then left, with documents or any other evidence. History is a chronological narrative and to suggest I am the only person in the world who thinks there is a need for a history for places and events, is utterly ridiculous!

No. In a cover-up, the first orders of business of the perpetrators doing the cover-up are to promote their narrative and to eliminate access to counter-narratives. If you assume hypothetically that revisionists are correct and the Holocaust did not happen, a lack of precise chronology is exactly what would be expected. The victorious powers would not leave so many 'loose ends' as to allow their opposition to construct a complete narrative opposing theirs. They would use their power to minimize any opportunity of contradictory reports. It is well-known that information control was in the interest of all victorious powers, and their Jews. This is easy to prove.

This is common-sense, Nessie, which is why no other anti-revisionists have taken onto your style of repetitive arguments, despite you having shilled them for the last 20 years.

The most common argument used against so-called revisionists, is that they cannot produce an evidenced chronology of events, or a history, to prove what really happened and show where the Jews went, if they were not killed.

Only die hard conspiracists think that it is possible to successfully hoax something the size of the Holocaust. For Sobibor, that would require the Dutch Government, to cooperate with the Soviets, during the Cold War, to pretend that the 34,000 Dutch Jews sent there, did not die and to have them hide, somewhere. It would need West and East Germany, to pretend that citizens who had been Nazis, killed them, when it would have been in both countries interests to blow the hoax, West Germany if the Soviets ran it, East if it was the Western Allies.

You should spend some time on X, where there are plenty of people like me, repeatedly challenging idiotic denier claims about wooden doors, a 271k death toll, the almanac that suggests an increase in population and outright lying about a supposed lack of evidence.

[Callafangers]

The bulk of the cremains are where the trees are now. From the 1945 site examination;

https://web.archive.org/web/20141019203 ... k-ANG..pdf

"In the middle part of the camp, probably in the places meant to hide the ashes, there is a young two-year-
old pine forest which occupies about 1200 square metres. Trial diggings have proved that under the layer of sand, there is a one-and-a-half-metre deep layer of ashes and the remains of human bones mixed with sand. Not far from the eastern border
of the camp, there was found a pit, 20 x 15 metres, which had formerly contained chloride. One can come across human bones over the whole area of the camp. The results of the expert evaluation also point towards the real function of the camp. Thus, the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Jagiellonian University ruling states that the examined bones are human bones."

Nessie, is this an AI hallucination? The quote you provided is not anywhere within the document you shared. In any case, if it is indeed a 1945 quote, this is at a time when the trees were still covering the grave area -- they were removed post-1965.

[EDIT: My mistake, I found the quote. The issue of its timing remains. No one disputes that trees were there in 1945, as I've made clear in the 1965 photo provided.]

As excavations continued, more has been found. From 2011;

"South of grave No 7, in the trenches and by means of the boreholes that
were drilled, the excavators discovered and identified the range of another mass
grave. It is rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east.
The object is about 190 - 210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found
3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with
layers of clear, light grey sand.

Yes, Nessie, this refers to grave 8/15, which I have already profiled and discussed on previous pages of this thread. I provided your exact quote above and others for this same grave/object:

viewtopic.php?p=19554#p19554

There are minimal corpse remains therein (just three cremains + sand layers about 10-15cm thick, with clean sand layers between). This allows at most a few hundred corpses for the entire grave.

[Callafangers]

The most common argument used against so-called revisionists, is that they cannot produce an evidenced chronology of events, or a history, to prove what really happened and show where the Jews went, if they were not killed.

Like I said: you're a sloganeer.

Only die hard conspiracists think that it is possible to successfully hoax something the size of the Holocaust.

Only die-hard conspiracists think millions of Jews could vanish without leaving any corpse-filled graves.

For Sobibor, that would require the Dutch Government, to cooperate with the Soviets, during the Cold War, to pretend that the 34,000 Dutch Jews sent there, did not die and to have them hide, somewhere. It would need West and East Germany, to pretend that citizens who had been Nazis, killed them, when it would have been in both countries interests to blow the hoax, West Germany if the Soviets ran it, East if it was the Western Allies.

It would require that many people did or did not survive the war (whether by disease, wartime excesses by the Soviets or by Germans) or shortly after the war (famine/disease in harsh Soviet conditions postwar), mass dispersion (diaspora) with minimal or obscured investigation for decades, and/or some centralized demographic fraudulence (which the Soviet Union is famous for), all while Jews remained broadly motivated to under-report themselves per ideological motives and prevailing 'antisemitism', and with postwar powers aligning to shape the post-war world. Do you really think 'crushing fascism' wasn't a powerful enough motive for communist politicians in the Dutch government?

There are tens of millions of people who survived WW2 and never documented their travels or origins, and millions more who died during the war and were not well-accounted for. 34,000 is a drop in the bucket. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Above all: you said the corpses were buried at Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka -- they evidently aren't at any of these camps; you're short by well-over a million. This makes you an insane conspiracist to still insist they are there.

You should spend some time on X, where there are plenty of people like me, repeatedly challenging idiotic denier claims about wooden doors, a 271k death toll, the almanac that suggests an increase in population and outright lying about a supposed lack of evidence.

You claim 'victories' by arguing with less-informed researchers on a social media platform that reflects a world which has to pass laws to tilt public and academic opinion in your favor. Desperate and pathetic but I'm not surprised. Hope you're having fun.

[Wetzelrad]

The bulk of the cremains are where the trees are now.

Nessie now thinks Kola and Mazurek and their assistants devoted all their time and effort digging for bodies in the wrong places. Whoops! Such fools they were! Kola's work was supposed to be proof of the Holocaust's mass graves. Now it's proof that the mass graves were somewhere else.

On the contrary, since Lukaszkiewicz refers to "the middle of the camp", quite separate from the "surround[ing] thin pine forest", he was obviously referring to exactly the place where Kola and others have dug.

[Nessie]

The bulk of the cremains are where the trees are now. From the 1945 site examination;

https://web.archive.org/web/20141019203 ... k-ANG..pdf

"In the middle part of the camp, probably in the places meant to hide the ashes, there is a young two-year-
old pine forest which occupies about 1200 square metres. Trial diggings have proved that under the layer of sand, there is a one-and-a-half-metre deep layer of ashes and the remains of human bones mixed with sand. Not far from the eastern border
of the camp, there was found a pit, 20 x 15 metres, which had formerly contained chloride. One can come across human bones over the whole area of the camp. The results of the expert evaluation also point towards the real function of the camp. Thus, the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Jagiellonian University ruling states that the examined bones are human bones."

Nessie, is this an AI hallucination? The quote you provided is not anywhere within the document you shared. In any case, if it is indeed a 1945 quote, this is at a time when the trees were still covering the grave area -- they were removed post-1965.

[EDIT: My mistake, I found the quote. The issue of its timing remains. No one disputes that trees were there in 1945, as I've made clear in the 1965 photo provided.]

Please provide a history of Sobibor, to evidence why the Nazis burnt copses, buried them and planted trees over them.

As excavations continued, more has been found. From 2011;

"South of grave No 7, in the trenches and by means of the boreholes that
were drilled, the excavators discovered and identified the range of another mass
grave. It is rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east.
The object is about 190 - 210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found
3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with
layers of clear, light grey sand.

Yes, Nessie, this refers to grave 8/15, which I have already profiled and discussed on previous pages of this thread. I provided your exact quote above and others for this same grave/object:

viewtopic.php?p=19554#p19554

There are minimal corpse remains therein (just three cremains + sand layers about 10-15cm thick, with clean sand layers between). This allows at most a few hundred corpses for the entire grave.

Why did the Nazis bury human remains that way? Your refusal to provide a history is as bad as your cherry picking of the evidence.

[Nessie]

The bulk of the cremains are where the trees are now.

Nessie now thinks Kola and Mazurek and their assistants devoted all their time and effort digging for bodies in the wrong places. Whoops! Such fools they were! Kola's work was supposed to be proof of the Holocaust's mass graves. Now it's proof that the mass graves were somewhere else.

On the contrary, since Lukaszkiewicz refers to "the middle of the camp", quite separate from the "surround[ing] thin pine forest", he was obviously referring to exactly the place where Kola and others have dug.

Kola and Mazurek were looking for more evidence, such as the boundary and escape tunnel. They wanted to disturb remains as little as possible. Lukaszkiewicz was likely unsure of the exact dimensions of the camp, the Nazis had removed so much. He referred to the main find of remains as amongst the trees.

[Nessie]

The most common argument used against so-called revisionists, is that they cannot produce an evidenced chronology of events, or a history, to prove what really happened and show where the Jews went, if they were not killed.

Like I said: you're a sloganeer.

I can produce an evidenced history, you cannot.

Only die hard conspiracists think that it is possible to successfully hoax something the size of the Holocaust.

Only die-hard conspiracists think millions of Jews could vanish without leaving any corpse-filled graves.

The Nazis left large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains. That is where the Jews are. That is evidenced and fits within a history of the Holocaust. You fail at that.

For Sobibor, that would require the Dutch Government, to cooperate with the Soviets, during the Cold War, to pretend that the 34,000 Dutch Jews sent there, did not die and to have them hide, somewhere. It would need West and East Germany, to pretend that citizens who had been Nazis, killed them, when it would have been in both countries interests to blow the hoax, West Germany if the Soviets ran it, East if it was the Western Allies.

It would require that many people did or did not survive the war (whether by disease, wartime excesses by the Soviets or by Germans) or shortly after the war (famine/disease in harsh Soviet conditions postwar), mass dispersion (diaspora) with minimal or obscured investigation for decades, and/or some centralized demographic fraudulence (which the Soviet Union is famous for), all while Jews remained broadly motivated to under-report themselves per ideological motives and prevailing 'antisemitism', and with postwar powers aligning to shape the post-war world. Do you really think 'crushing fascism' wasn't a powerful enough motive for communist politicians in the Dutch government?

There are tens of millions of people who survived WW2 and never documented their travels or origins, and millions more who died during the war and were not well-accounted for. 34,000 is a drop in the bucket. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The absence of evidence to support your extreme conspiracy theory, of mass international cooperation, between competing powers, in whose interest it would be to save their reputation from having assisted with the Holocaust, to embarrass the hoaxer, is evidence it did not happen.

Above all: you said the corpses were buried at Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka -- they evidently aren't at any of these camps; you're short by well-over a million. This makes you an insane conspiracist to still insist they are there.

They evidenced to be at the camps, you are in denial mode as you claim they are not.

You should spend some time on X, where there are plenty of people like me, repeatedly challenging idiotic denier claims about wooden doors, a 271k death toll, the almanac that suggests an increase in population and outright lying about a supposed lack of evidence.

You claim 'victories' by arguing with less-informed researchers on a social media platform that reflects a world which has to pass laws to tilt public and academic opinion in your favor. Desperate and pathetic but I'm not surprised. Hope you're having fun.

It shows the level of intelligence and inability to fact check and research, amongst deniers.

[Callafangers]

Please provide a history of Sobibor, to evidence why the Nazis burnt copses, buried them and planted trees over them.

This has already been explained in this thread, you're just repeating yourself.

Tree-planting was to prevent this site of mass pyres/burials from becoming an Allied symbolic propaganda site, as was becoming the case at other crematory facilities.

There are minimal corpse remains therein (just three cremains + sand layers about 10-15cm thick, with clean sand layers between). This allows at most a few hundred corpses for the entire grave.

Why did the Nazis bury human remains that way? Your refusal to provide a history is as bad as your cherry picking of the evidence.

Lol. Why did they bury a tiny layer of corpse remains amounting to a few hundred corpses at most? Is this your "checkmate", Nessie?

Here's a better question: what happened to all of the corpses that died of typhus in the ghettos? Where is your proof of where they ended up?

[Nessie]

Please provide a history of Sobibor, to evidence why the Nazis burnt copses, buried them and planted trees over them.

This has already been explained in this thread, you're just repeating yourself.

Tree-planting was to prevent this site of mass pyres/burials from becoming an Allied symbolic propaganda site, as was becoming the case at other crematory facilities.

Typically you make a claim, with no evidence, as you fail at the basic task of investigating what happened.

There are minimal corpse remains therein (just three cremains + sand layers about 10-15cm thick, with clean sand layers between). This allows at most a few hundred corpses for the entire grave.

Why did the Nazis bury human remains that way? Your refusal to provide a history is as bad as your cherry picking of the evidence.

Lol. Why did they bury a tiny layer of corpse remains amounting to a few hundred corpses at most? Is this your "checkmate", Nessie?

Here's a better question: what happened to all of the corpses that died of typhus in the ghettos? Where is your proof of where they ended up?

The dead at the ghettos were likely buried there, as were the dead at the AR camps and indeed any camp. There is no evidence, of prisoner corpses being removed elsewhere for burial.

Since you cannot evidence c250,000 left Sobibor, despite your biased desire to believe they were not buried or cremated at the camp, that is what is evidenced to have happened.

[Callafangers]

The dead at the ghettos were likely buried there, as were the dead at the AR camps and indeed any camp. There is no evidence, of prisoner corpses being removed elsewhere for burial.

"Likely"?

You're seeking an explanation for some low thousands (to maybe low tens of thousands) of Jews buried at AR camps... meanwhile, your explanation for the same number of Jews dying from typhus over a few years in ghettos is that they were "likely buried" in the ghettos?

To be clear:

• You base this "likely buried [in ghettos]" on no actual evidence
• The ghettos notably did not have cremation facilities of their own
• Germany was greatly concerned about buried corpses poisoning ground water (e.g. this is the official reason for switching to cremation at Sobibor and at Chelmno, among other locations)
• As of 1942, Germany was establishing border stations (i.e. where AR camps were located) for typhus control purposes
• Trains were already leaving the ghettos en route toward the AR camp facilities (revisionists and exterminationists agree on this)

All of this strongly suggests the corpses dying of typhus in the ghettos ended up at the AR camps for sanitary disposal. The order of magnitude insofar as measurable corpse remains at the AR camps aligns with this perfectly, and it aligns not at all with the 'extermination' theory.

[Nessie]

The dead at the ghettos were likely buried there, as were the dead at the AR camps and indeed any camp. There is no evidence, of prisoner corpses being removed elsewhere for burial.

"Likely"?

You're seeking an explanation for some low thousands (to maybe low tens of thousands) of Jews buried at AR camps... meanwhile, your explanation for the same number of Jews dying from typhus over a few years in ghettos is that they were "likely buried" in the ghettos?

To be clear:

• You base this "likely buried [in ghettos]" on no actual evidence

How is no actual evidence a problem for you? You base the majority of your beliefs on no actual evidence.

[*] The ghettos notably did not have cremation facilities of their own
[*] Germany was greatly concerned about buried corpses poisoning ground water (e.g. this is the official reason for switching to cremation at Sobibor and at Chelmno, among other locations)
[*] As of 1942, Germany was establishing border stations (i.e. where AR camps were located) for typhus control purposes
[*] Trains were already leaving the ghettos en route toward the AR camp facilities (revisionists and exterminationists agree on this)[/list]

All of this strongly suggests the corpses dying of typhus in the ghettos ended up at the AR camps for sanitary disposal. The order of magnitude insofar as measurable corpse remains at the AR camps aligns with this perfectly, and it aligns not at all with the 'extermination' theory.

So, based on no actual evidence, you think the dead from the ghettos were transported to the AR camps for cremation.

[Callafangers]

You're seeking an explanation for some low thousands (to maybe low tens of thousands) of Jews buried at AR camps... meanwhile, your explanation for the same number of Jews dying from typhus over a few years in ghettos is that they were "likely buried" in the ghettos?

To be clear:

• You base this "likely buried [in ghettos]" on no actual evidence

How is no actual evidence a problem for you? You base the majority of your beliefs on no actual evidence.

This is a deflection and a fallacy (tu quoque, false equivalence, etc.).

I repeat: you base "likely buried in ghettos" on zero evidence. You made it up, Nessie. That's hilarious.

All of this strongly suggests the corpses dying of typhus in the ghettos ended up at the AR camps for sanitary disposal. The order of magnitude insofar as measurable corpse remains at the AR camps aligns with this perfectly, and it aligns not at all with the 'extermination' theory.

So, based on no actual evidence, you think the dead from the ghettos were transported to the AR camps for cremation.

I listed the evidence, Nessie. You can call it circumstantial evidence, if you'd like. Here it is again:

• The ghettos notably did not have cremation facilities of their own
• Germany was greatly concerned about buried corpses poisoning ground water (e.g. this is the official reason for switching to cremation at Sobibor and at Chelmno, among other locations)
• As of 1942, Germany was establishing border stations (i.e. where AR camps were located) for typhus control purposes
• Trains were already leaving the ghettos en route toward the AR camp facilities (revisionists and exterminationists agree on this)

Each of these items is relevant and supportive of the conclusion that typhus victims (and other corpses) from the ghettos were sent to AR camps.

This is sort of a big deal and it definitely doesn't look good for the orthodoxy if you make weak, hand-waving and fallacious arguments. You might want to spend some more time on this one, Nessie. Your ship is sinking.