Sobibór: Kola-Mazurek Discrepancies and Implications

[Nessie]

What about where I discussed reasons why graves have been found that are mostly empty?

Explain away, Nessie.

My first post in the thread;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19328#p19328

Now, you evidence why they dug so much and cremains are found at the camp. Produce a chronological history.

[Callafangers]

Now, you evidence why they dug so much and cremains are found at the camp.

The challenge for you has been the same for the last half-dozen pages, Nessie: quantify your estimated range for each grave and for the camp overall.

You keep pretending that we can have no idea how many corpses are there.

All that work from Kola/Mazurek, years of digging resulting in maps of precise length/width and estimated depth, followed by characterizations of contents and grave density, and yet you insist we cannot even wager an estimated range of how many corpses are there.

"Could be just three (3)!
Could be three million!
Nobody knows!"

Do you know how stupid this is?

Give a range, Nessie.

Here is mine (range goes from what I consider "reasonable minimum" to "absolute maximum"):

Grave 1: 2 - 10 (near-empty)
Grave 2: 150 - 1,200
Grave 3: 300 - 2,500
Grave 4: 1,200 - 7,000
Grave 5: 500 - 2,500
Grave 6: 550 - 3,800
Grave 7: 0 - 0 (empty)
TOTAL: 2,702 - 17,010

This is my attempt at an objective assessment based on grave descriptions.

On the lowest end of my ranges, I assume that Mazurek and his team were not outright liars (otherwise, these estimates would be even lower).

My higher end represents what I regard as the maximum physical allowance for each grave, erring slightly on the side of more implied corpses for any ambiguity in Mazurek's description.

Most importantly: I am prepared to explain and justify the ranges I have chosen here. This could lead to a productive debate since I have actually put forth a somewhat falsifiable argument (unlike what Nessie has done, which is insist on total vagueness despite hundreds of grave measurements taken and reported on).

[Nessie]

Now, you evidence why they dug so much and cremains are found at the camp.

The challenge for you has been the same for the last half-dozen pages, Nessie: quantify your estimated range for each grave and for the camp overall.

You keep pretending that we can have no idea how many corpses are there.

All that work from Kola/Mazurek, years of digging resulting in maps of precise length/width and estimated depth, followed by characterizations of contents and grave density, and yet you insist we cannot even wager an estimated range of how many corpses are there.

"Could be just three (3)!
Could be three million!
Nobody knows!"

Do you know how stupid this is?

Straw man. You just invented that.

Give a range, Nessie.

c170,000 to 250,000.

Here is mine (range goes from what I consider "reasonable minimum" to "absolute maximum"):

Grave 1: 2 - 10 (near-empty)
Grave 2: 150 - 1,200
Grave 3: 300 - 2,500
Grave 4: 1,200 - 7,000
Grave 5: 500 - 2,500
Grave 6: 550 - 3,800
Grave 7: 0 - 0 (empty)
TOTAL: 2,702 - 17,010

This is my attempt at an objective assessment based on grave descriptions.

On the lowest end of my ranges, I assume that Mazurek and his team were not outright liars (otherwise, these estimates would be even lower).

My higher end represents what I regard as the maximum physical allowance for each grave, erring slightly on the side of more implied corpses for any ambiguity in Mazurek's description.

Most importantly: I am prepared to explain and justify the ranges I have chosen here. This could lead to a productive debate since I have actually put forth a somewhat falsifiable argument (unlike what Nessie has done, which is insist on total vagueness despite hundreds of grave measurements taken and reported on).

What about "mass grave no. 15 where the eastern and southern boundaries have not been reached yet", why have you excluded that?

Is your 1 to 7, the "result of archaeological works conducted in 2001" where "seven mass graves were discovered" and you excluded the rest? For example;

"Due to the fact that the place of the secondary deposition of large amount of human bones (mostly burnt) was previously determined as Graves, also object 568 should be identified as another grave no. 18"

My issue is with the guess work that is involved. For example;

"...excavators discovered and identified the range of mass grave No 8 (object 882). It is
rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east. The object is about 190-
210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found 3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone
thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with layers of clear, light grey sand."

That is a grave with a volume of 250m3. The excavation found 3 layers of cremains, in the wall of what was dug, but it does not excavate into them. How can a volume of cremains be calculated from that? They stop when they find cremains, so it appears they have a mass grave with very little in it, but that is because they do not continue to excavate the layers of cremains. So, was what the Nazis dug 250m3, or was it larger?

So much has not been excavated, "South-east from the grave 7 another crematory mass grave (no 15) was uncovered. Its
range has not been determined". Mazurek discusses the switch from burial to cremations, due to the poisoning of the ground water and smell. He references, " five surface crematories have been located". Once they were operating, would cremains from each burnt out pyre, be buried in pits dotted around that part of the camp, Lager III? That would explain the randomness of the finds there.

That Mazurek, with his significantly greater knowledge and understanding, has not tried to estimate the volume of cremated remains, means that I doubt I could provide any meaningful estimation. I am certain your estimates are worthless, due to your bias and desire to minimise the numbers who died at Sobibor.

[Callafangers]

"Could be just three (3)!
Could be three million!
Nobody knows!"

Do you know how stupid this is?

Straw man. You just invented that.

So then what is your forensic/physical theoretical range approximation based on grave volume and density?

Give a range, Nessie.

c170,000 to 250,000.

This is the Wikipedia range based on 'Holocaust' lore. It is not your own, original estimate based on reported grave volumes and densities.

This is hard, scientific proof that you are an idiot.

Here is mine (range goes from what I consider "reasonable minimum" to "absolute maximum"):

Grave 1: 2 - 10 (near-empty)
Grave 2: 150 - 1,200
Grave 3: 300 - 2,500
Grave 4: 1,200 - 7,000
Grave 5: 500 - 2,500
Grave 6: 550 - 3,800
Grave 7: 0 - 0 (empty)
TOTAL: 2,702 - 17,010

What about "mass grave no. 15 where the eastern and southern boundaries have not been reached yet", why have you excluded that?

I excluded graves beyond grave 7 since they are not of the original set from Kola and all appear to have very minimal corpse remains/layers regardless. Grave 15 has three "thin layers" starting at ~2m depth, which means you are looking at most at a few hundred corpses.

The fact that you even mention this grave re-confirms that you are not thinking in terms of physical volume and density.

Is your 1 to 7, the "result of archaeological works conducted in 2001" where "seven mass graves were discovered" and you excluded the rest? For example;

"Due to the fact that the place of the secondary deposition of large amount of human bones (mostly burnt) was previously determined as Graves, also object 568 should be identified as another grave no. 18"

Nessie, look at the actual corpse volume and density of this reported "grave" (object 568). This "grave" was a trash pit that had limited admixture of corpse remains (see descriptions of "Object 568" printed throughout numerous reports):

The excavation work in the Spring of 2011 also provided the researchers with many new
artefacts. The biggest concentration of these was found in a sizeable rubbish tip located in the
south-east corner of hectare XVIII (object 568). In regard to the archaeological finds of
mobile objects, most of these were women’s combs and hairpins, broken glass of different
bottles, pieces of barbed wire, iron nails, iron nipples and other ironware items.
https://web.archive.org/web/20141019205 ... n-2011.pdf

Here is the larger excerpt of what you quoted, showing what you left out:

To the south, the range of the occurence of burnt human bones covers with the
southern border of are 9a hectare XXV. Within it, in the spring 2011 the object no. 568 –
garbage pit with numerous artifacts (personal items of the victims) and the burnt fragments of
human bones have been uncovered. Due to the fact that the place of the secondary
deposition of large amount of human bones (mostly burnt) was previously determined as
Graves, also object 568 should be identified as another grave no. 18 (Photo 6).
[...]
Photo 6 Sobibór, area of the former German-Nazi extermination camp of Jews, the area of the south-eastern
corner of the clearing with the mass Graves, plan oj the object 568 discovered in the spring 2011 and determined
during the current excavation research as a grave no. 18 because of the large amount of burnt human bones
located in the backfill.

Here are its photos:

object568-grave18.jpg (157.74 KiB) Viewed 173 times

568 mapped.jpg (15.36 KiB) Viewed 173 times

(Note: each mapped square is 5m x 5m)

Thus, you have a tiny object/grave (about 5m x 5m) which is mostly buried personal items (spoons, tools, etc.) but which has some "mostly burnt" (partly-unburnt) human remains mixed into the backfill. These remains are noted explicitly as a secondary deposition, i.e. they are not the primary contents of this object/burial, further reflected by the fact that no corpse remains were found there at all in the 2011 excavation. We are looking at perhaps ~50-100 corpses at most, even if assuming a massive 5 meter depth (which is ridiculous and likely impossible for a 5m x 5m burial). There is no way for you to rationalize a greater estimate than this, which is why you don't bother to try.

Overall, none of the graves beyond grave 6 can be interpreted to contain even several hundred corpses, and they aren't part of the original seven graves identified by Kola, and they are also all very small, making them trivial for purposes of our analysis.

Even more importantly, it appears we can account for some ~1,800 corpses at Sobibor through non-Holocaust means, likely explaining any/all of the smaller graves, if not the larger ones as well:

First, it appears they were forced to lie down on the ground. The archaeologists found there 1830 rifle bullets shot into the ground.[...]
The main difference is, however, that in the northern part of object E, there was a concentration of over 1800 deformed bullets which, most probably, had been shot into the ground. This concentration was interpreted in the
2001 research report as marking the place in the barrack where victims, perhaps ill or infirm, were executed while lying on the floor.
https://web.archive.org/web/20141019203 ... k-ANG..pdf

Case closed (again). No gassing = no Holocaust.

My issue is with the guess work that is involved. For example;

"...excavators discovered and identified the range of mass grave No 8 (object 882). It is
rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east. The object is about 190-
210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found 3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone
thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with layers of clear, light grey sand."

That is a grave with a volume of 250m3. The excavation found 3 layers of cremains, in the wall of what was dug, but it does not excavate into them. How can a volume of cremains be calculated from that? They stop when they find cremains, so it appears they have a mass grave with very little in it, but that is because they do not continue to excavate the layers of cremains. So, was what the Nazis dug 250m3, or was it larger?

Nessie, the 'grave' here is 250m3 in total. However, there are only three "layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15cm". We can either interpret that as ~12.5cm total bone layer (if assumed Mazurek is stating the actual bone amid these layers as a combined 10-15cm), or we can interpret it to mean ~12.5cm x 3 = ~38cm total bone layers if we assume he's saying there are three layers with each being 10-15cm thick. This means our actual range of possible bone/corpse volume is:

25 x 5 x .125 = 15.6m3 (low-end)

25 x 5 x .38 = 47.5m3 (upper-end)

Range: 15.6m3 - 47.5m3 actual bone layer volume

The problem with this range, however, is that we are assuming these layers could realistically be 100% human corpse/bone. This is not realistic at all, since the patterns where bones/corpses are described in detail consistently show that these are mixed with some amount of sand/backfill. All photographs show at most a mixture of corpse remains and other materials, mainly sand. There are no instances of "pure bone", so to speak.

Thus, we have to drop this range further by a certain percentage. To be charitable, let's drop it only ~30%. This gives us:

Range: 10.9m3 - 33.2m3 actual bone volume

So, how many corpses can this hold? From other calculations already discussed in this thread (which considers wood ash/charcoal that also must be accounted for), we are looking at about 7-8 corpses per m3 of grave volume. Taking the mid-point (average) of our volume range, that gives us:

22.1 x 7.5 = 165.8 corpses

But we should probably lower this further, since these three detected layers were only mentioned in the "foot-wall" of this grave. In either case, this figure is hardly a drop in the bucket, even just for the ~1,800 executions we documented above; let alone the insane ~200,000+ figures you keep throwing out.

So much has not been excavated, "South-east from the grave 7 another crematory mass grave (no 15) was uncovered. Its
range has not been determined". Mazurek discusses the switch from burial to cremations, due to the poisoning of the ground water and smell. He references, " five surface crematories have been located". Once they were operating, would cremains from each burnt out pyre, be buried in pits dotted around that part of the camp, Lager III? That would explain the randomness of the finds there.

The entire camp was reconnoitered by Kola. Mazurek's excavations investigated thoroughly into all areas where corpse remains could be suspected. This is the best evidence we have, and it points against you.

That Mazurek, with his significantly greater knowledge and understanding, has not tried to estimate the volume of cremated remains, means that I doubt I could provide any meaningful estimation. I am certain your estimates are worthless, due to your bias and desire to minimise the numbers who died at Sobibor.

Mazurek's purpose and assignment was not to estimate the volume of cremated remains. His assignment was to identify where these remains were at and what they consisted of (speaking to length, width, depth [until substantial remains, but gaps filled by Kola], and consistency/density), which is what he did. Revisionists are the first to utilize this information to answer the most important questions which exterminationists rather avoid.

[Nessie]

"Could be just three (3)!
Could be three million!
Nobody knows!"

Do you know how stupid this is?

Straw man. You just invented that.

So then what is your forensic/physical theoretical range approximation based on grave volume and density?

Give a range, Nessie.

c170,000 to 250,000.

This is the Wikipedia range based on 'Holocaust' lore. It is not your own, original estimate based on reported grave volumes and densities.

This is hard, scientific proof that you are an idiot.

It is the range of estimated death tolls, by historians, using evidence from multiple sources, primarily Nazi documentation.

Here is mine (range goes from what I consider "reasonable minimum" to "absolute maximum"):

Grave 1: 2 - 10 (near-empty)
Grave 2: 150 - 1,200
Grave 3: 300 - 2,500
Grave 4: 1,200 - 7,000
Grave 5: 500 - 2,500
Grave 6: 550 - 3,800
Grave 7: 0 - 0 (empty)
TOTAL: 2,702 - 17,010

What about "mass grave no. 15 where the eastern and southern boundaries have not been reached yet", why have you excluded that?

I excluded graves beyond grave 7 since they are not of the original set from Kola and all appear to have very minimal corpse remains/layers regardless. Grave 15 has three "thin layers" starting at ~2m depth, which means you are looking at most at a few hundred corpses.

The fact that you even mention this grave re-confirms that you are not thinking in terms of physical volume and density.

Is your 1 to 7, the "result of archaeological works conducted in 2001" where "seven mass graves were discovered" and you excluded the rest? For example;

"Due to the fact that the place of the secondary deposition of large amount of human bones (mostly burnt) was previously determined as Graves, also object 568 should be identified as another grave no. 18"

Nessie, look at the actual corpse volume and density of this reported "grave" (object 568). This "grave" was a trash pit that had limited admixture of corpse remains (see descriptions of "Object 568" printed throughout numerous reports):

The excavation work in the Spring of 2011 also provided the researchers with many new
artefacts. The biggest concentration of these was found in a sizeable rubbish tip located in the
south-east corner of hectare XVIII (object 568). In regard to the archaeological finds of
mobile objects, most of these were women’s combs and hairpins, broken glass of different
bottles, pieces of barbed wire, iron nails, iron nipples and other ironware items.
https://web.archive.org/web/20141019205 ... n-2011.pdf

Here is the larger excerpt of what you quoted, showing what you left out:

To the south, the range of the occurence of burnt human bones covers with the
southern border of are 9a hectare XXV. Within it, in the spring 2011 the object no. 568 –
garbage pit with numerous artifacts (personal items of the victims) and the burnt fragments of
human bones have been uncovered. Due to the fact that the place of the secondary
deposition of large amount of human bones (mostly burnt) was previously determined as
Graves, also object 568 should be identified as another grave no. 18 (Photo 6).
[...]
Photo 6 Sobibór, area of the former German-Nazi extermination camp of Jews, the area of the south-eastern
corner of the clearing with the mass Graves, plan oj the object 568 discovered in the spring 2011 and determined
during the current excavation research as a grave no. 18 because of the large amount of burnt human bones
located in the backfill.

Here are its photos:

object568-grave18.jpg
568 mapped.jpg
(Note: each mapped square is 5m x 5m)

Thus, you have a tiny object/grave (about 5m x 5m) which is mostly buried personal items (spoons, tools, etc.) but which has some "mostly burnt" (partly-unburnt) human remains mixed into the backfill. These remains are noted explicitly as a secondary deposition, i.e. they are not the primary contents of this object/burial, further reflected by the fact that no corpse remains were found there at all in the 2011 excavation. We are looking at perhaps ~50-100 corpses at most, even if assuming a massive 5 meter depth (which is ridiculous and likely impossible for a 5m x 5m burial). There is no way for you to rationalize a greater estimate than this, which is why you don't bother to try.

Overall, none of the graves beyond grave 6 can be interpreted to contain even several hundred corpses, and they aren't part of the original seven graves identified by Kola, and they are also all very small, making them trivial for purposes of our analysis.

Even more importantly, it appears we can account for some ~1,800 corpses at Sobibor through non-Holocaust means, likely explaining any/all of the smaller graves, if not the larger ones as well:

First, it appears they were forced to lie down on the ground. The archaeologists found there 1830 rifle bullets shot into the ground.[...]
The main difference is, however, that in the northern part of object E, there was a concentration of over 1800 deformed bullets which, most probably, had been shot into the ground. This concentration was interpreted in the
2001 research report as marking the place in the barrack where victims, perhaps ill or infirm, were executed while lying on the floor.
https://web.archive.org/web/20141019203 ... k-ANG..pdf

Case closed (again). No gassing = no Holocaust.

My issue is with the guess work that is involved. For example;

"...excavators discovered and identified the range of mass grave No 8 (object 882). It is
rectangular, about 25 m by 5 m in size. Its longer axis lies west-east. The object is about 190-
210 cm deep. In its foot-wall, the excavators found 3 layers of burnt bones, with the bone
thickness of 10-15 cm, interlaced with layers of clear, light grey sand."

That is a grave with a volume of 250m3. The excavation found 3 layers of cremains, in the wall of what was dug, but it does not excavate into them. How can a volume of cremains be calculated from that? They stop when they find cremains, so it appears they have a mass grave with very little in it, but that is because they do not continue to excavate the layers of cremains. So, was what the Nazis dug 250m3, or was it larger?

Nessie, the 'grave' here is 250m3 in total. However, there are only three "layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15cm". We can either interpret that as ~12.5cm total bone layer (if assumed Mazurek is stating the actual bone amid these layers as a combined 10-15cm), or we can interpret it to mean ~12.5cm x 3 = ~38cm total bone layers if we assume he's saying there are three layers with each being 10-15cm thick. This means our actual range of possible bone/corpse volume is:

25 x 5 x .125 = 15.6m3 (low-end)

25 x 5 x .38 = 47.5m3 (upper-end)

Range: 15.6m3 - 47.5m3 actual bone layer volume

The problem with this range, however, is that we are assuming these layers could realistically be 100% human corpse/bone. This is not realistic at all, since the patterns where bones/corpses are described in detail consistently show that these are mixed with some amount of sand/backfill. All photographs show at most a mixture of corpse remains and other materials, mainly sand. There are no instances of "pure bone", so to speak.

Thus, we have to drop this range further by a certain percentage. To be charitable, let's drop it only ~30%. This gives us:

Range: 10.9m3 - 33.2m3 actual bone volume

So, how many corpses can this hold? From other calculations already discussed in this thread (which considers wood ash/charcoal that also must be accounted for), we are looking at about 7-8 corpses per m3 of grave volume. Taking the mid-point (average) of our volume range, that gives us:

22.1 x 7.5 = 165.8 corpses

But we should probably lower this further, since these three detected layers were only mentioned in the "foot-wall" of this grave. In either case, this figure is hardly a drop in the bucket, even just for the ~1,800 executions we documented above; let alone the insane ~200,000+ figures you keep throwing out.

Grave 8 is described as being excavated to 250m3, and the three layers of cremains being found in its foot wall. I take that to mean one side of the excavation and the cremains then extend further into the ground, rather than they excavated, found a layer, then they kept going, finding two more layers. I say that because they would stop excavating if they found substantial cremains and there are plenty of photos of excavations that have stopped, when a layer of cremains is found. Therefore I am not in the slightest bit convinced by your estimation of the volume of cremains in that grave, or others.

So much has not been excavated, "South-east from the grave 7 another crematory mass grave (no 15) was uncovered. Its
range has not been determined". Mazurek discusses the switch from burial to cremations, due to the poisoning of the ground water and smell. He references, " five surface crematories have been located". Once they were operating, would cremains from each burnt out pyre, be buried in pits dotted around that part of the camp, Lager III? That would explain the randomness of the finds there.

The entire camp was reconnoitered by Kola. Mazurek's excavations investigated thoroughly into all areas where corpse remains could be suspected. This is the best evidence we have, and it points against you.

Is there a bore hole map for Sobibor, as there was for Belzec, to show precisely the range Kola took samples from?

That Mazurek, with his significantly greater knowledge and understanding, has not tried to estimate the volume of cremated remains, means that I doubt I could provide any meaningful estimation. I am certain your estimates are worthless, due to your bias and desire to minimise the numbers who died at Sobibor.

Mazurek's purpose and assignment was not to estimate the volume of cremated remains. His assignment was to identify where these remains were at and what they consisted of (speaking to length, width, depth [until substantial remains, but gaps filled by Kola], and consistency/density), which is what he did. Revisionists are the first to utilize this information to answer the most important questions which exterminationists rather avoid.

Mazurek's purpose was to excavate where the memorials were proposed, to ensure they did not dig into mass graves. He spent his time trying to avoid disturbing remains. I do not think it is possible to estimate the volume of cremains, from the excavations, as the Nazis scattered them all around Lager III and they did not just dump them back into the graves that had been dug for corpses, that so-called revisionists avoid evidencing, along with the camp's actual function.

[Nessie]

I look at this image, which is one of a number, that clearly shows dense areas of cremated remains, not all of which have been uncovered and lots more ground that has not been excavated and can see, there is easily enough space for there to the remains of 170-250,000 buried, cremated corpses;



That so-called revisionists cannot provide an evidenced explanation for the burial of large quantities of cremated remains at that camp, is why I stay with what is evidenced to have happened.

[Callafangers]

I look at this image, which is one of a number, that clearly shows dense areas of cremated remains...

Nessie, what you are referring to is the gray-colored sand/ash, right? What you've confirmed here is your agreement that the wood ash/charcoal was mixed-in anywhere that corpse cremains were buried. We all agree that burnt bones are generally either white in color or charred (dark/black), themselves. Instead of black or white, though, you point out the gray. The gray confirms something you have attempted to deny in the past: that the wood ashes were buried there as well. This solidifies my estimates thus far of just 7-8 corpses of fully-cremated remains per m3 of volume.

Thanks for your help, Nessie.

[Nessie]

I look at this image, which is one of a number, that clearly shows dense areas of cremated remains...

Nessie, what you are referring to is the gray-colored sand/ash, right? What you've confirmed here is your agreement that the wood ash/charcoal was mixed-in anywhere that corpse cremains were buried. We all agree that burnt bones are generally either white in color or charred (dark/black), themselves. Instead of black or white, though, you point out the gray. The gray confirms something you have attempted to deny in the past: that the wood ashes were buried there as well.

Straw man, I have never denied that cremains are not also mixed in with ash from the wood used on the pyres.

This solidifies my estimates thus far of just 7-8 corpses of fully-cremated remains per m3 of volume.

Thanks for your help, Nessie.

You said;

Nessie, the 'grave' here is 250m3 in total. However, there are only three "layers of burnt bones, with the bone thickness of 10-15cm". We can either interpret that as ~12.5cm total bone layer (if assumed Mazurek is stating the actual bone amid these layers as a combined 10-15cm), or we can interpret it to mean ~12.5cm x 3 = ~38cm total bone layers if we assume he's saying there are three layers with each being 10-15cm thick.

But the layers of bone were found "In its foot-wall". Why are you interpreting that to mean they found three layers, as they dug down into the 25m by 5m grave?

[Stubble]

Can we all just appreciate the fact that Keen has been utterly correct in his assessment about the digs and that there should be a revision of the revisionist estimate of 'theoretical maximum' based off of the results of the digs?

Now appears to be the time for this revision, because, at this point, the museum has gravelled over the site, so, I would assume they are done.

[Nessie]

I am not interested in the opinions of biased so-called revisionists, with no archaeological training. Get archaeologists to assess the results and then evidence where all the Jews supposedly not killed at Sobibor, went.

[Callafangers]

I am not interested in the opinions of biased so-called revisionists, with no archaeological training. Get archaeologists to assess the results and then evidence where all the Jews supposedly not killed at Sobibor, went.

Let's keep this extra-simple. You believe in a range between 170,000 - 250,000 total corpses buried under Sobibor. The average of this range is 210,000 so let's work with that.

What % of your 210,000 do you allocate to each of the Graves 1-18?

If any are left over after your allocation, please list briefly where you think they are.

***

Note: you aren't saying you know these percentages are sound approximations -- there is no penalty if you get it wrong. The goal is simply to put your confidence to the test. If you believe corpses are buried at this camp, I'm simply calling upon you to break down how it's even possible or realistic, by declaring where your best guess of their actual location(s) are.

[Nessie]

I am not interested in the opinions of biased so-called revisionists, with no archaeological training. Get archaeologists to assess the results and then evidence where all the Jews supposedly not killed at Sobibor, went.

Let's keep this extra-simple. You believe in a range between 170,000 - 250,000 total corpses buried under Sobibor. The average of this range is 210,000 so let's work with that.

What % of your 210,000 do you allocate to each of the Graves 1-18?

If any are left over after your allocation, please list briefly where you think they are.

***

Note: you aren't saying you know these percentages are sound approximations -- there is no penalty if you get it wrong. The goal is simply to put your confidence to the test. If you believe corpses are buried at this camp, I'm simply calling upon you to break down how it's even possible or realistic, by declaring where your best guess of their actual location(s) are.

Based on the timeline of the camp and the excavations; fom May to September 1942, the gassed corpses were buried in mass graves, that were dug as required. They are the largest of graves 1 to 18. There is space never excavated, amongst the trees, that could contain more. In those four months the camp received approximately 50-80,000 on the transports, and they were buried as corpses.

In September 1942, the first report of a mass grave found at Katyn, caused the Nazis to switch to cremation pyres. There were also issues with smell and poisoning the ground water. That evidence primarily comes from TII, but the AR camps can be treated as one, since the organisation was under one specific SS department. There is no way cremations would start at TII and not elsewhere, when the issues were the same for all the AR camps. The buried corpses were exhumed, and there may have been graves dug, that were never filled with corpses, and they were used for cremations, as theorised by Mazurek.

As each pyre burnt down, the cremains and ashes were buried. The evidence of largely empty graves and this excavation, evidences that the burial of the cremains, was ad hoc, around Lager III, and not just dumping all cremains into the now cleared of corpses original mass graves;



The evidence is that the Nazis made a big effort to mix the cremains into the ground, specifically to make quantification impossible. If they had filled the original mass graves, such as Grave 1, full of cremains, then it would be easy to establish a volume and then calculate approximately how many corpses it contained. It looks like as each pyre burned down and went out, it was spread around the site, in lots of smaller burials, not necessarily in the graves that had been dug May to September 1942. Then the site was planted over.



My conclusion is that it is impossible to estimate the volume of buried cremains, which is exactly what the Nazis intended. Therefore, other evidence has to be used, to establish how many were buried there.

[Callafangers]

As each pyre burnt down, the cremains and ashes were buried. The evidence of largely empty graves and this excavation, evidences that the burial of the cremains, was ad hoc, around Lager III, and not just dumping all cremains into the now cleared of corpses original mass graves;

[...]

It looks like as each pyre burned down and went out, it was spread around the site, in lots of smaller burials, not necessarily in the graves that had been dug May to September 1942. Then the site was planted over.

[...]

My conclusion is that it is impossible to estimate the volume of buried cremains, which is exactly what the Nazis intended. Therefore, other evidence has to be used, to establish how many were buried there.

Not only is this an extraordinary "cope", it's your saddest take yet.

You're now so down as to concede that the graves identified by Mazurek/Kola are "cleared of corpses" but you (and ONLY you) insist that the ~250,000 Jews are somehow, someway buried at Camp III regardless.

Nessie, this is stupid. It's just sad at this point.

[TlsMS93]

Not only is this an extraordinary "cope", it's your saddest take yet.

You're now so down as to concede that the graves identified by Mazurek/Kola are "cleared of corpses" but you (and ONLY you) insist that the ~250,000 Jews are somehow, someway buried at Camp III regardless.

Nessie, this is stupid. It's just sad at this point.

This is similar to the debate about the origin of life. For a long time, the best answer was that it originated in Earth's primitive ocean, but it was found that this water is practically poison for any living cell to thrive, meaning it can no longer be in seawater.

The same is true with Nessie; if they aren't in the trenches they unearthed, they're somewhere, and we'll find them. It's a matter of time, just like Darwin with transitional fossils.

[Nessie]

As each pyre burnt down, the cremains and ashes were buried. The evidence of largely empty graves and this excavation, evidences that the burial of the cremains, was ad hoc, around Lager III, and not just dumping all cremains into the now cleared of corpses original mass graves;

[...]

It looks like as each pyre burned down and went out, it was spread around the site, in lots of smaller burials, not necessarily in the graves that had been dug May to September 1942. Then the site was planted over.

[...]

My conclusion is that it is impossible to estimate the volume of buried cremains, which is exactly what the Nazis intended. Therefore, other evidence has to be used, to establish how many were buried there.

Not only is this an extraordinary "cope", it's your saddest take yet.

You're now so down as to concede that the graves identified by Mazurek/Kola are "cleared of corpses" but you (and ONLY you) insist that the ~250,000 Jews are somehow, someway buried at Camp III regardless.

Nessie, this is stupid. It's just sad at this point.

Mazurek said "In the case of grave no. 1... Third... suggest that that grave no. 1 originally had been completely or in large part filled with cremated human remains and emptied due to the Sonderaktion 1005." Neither he nor Kola suggest anything other than the corpses are buried at the camp. I agree with them.

I showed you an excavation photo, that specifically shows buried cremains dotted all over the place.