An Old Phone Book (1942)

[Callafangers]

It is a major point. It shows how easily confused you get and how little you understand evidencing.

Ad hominem and you're again on a 'meta-evidence' rant, feigning authority you don't have.

You have consistently tried to make out that train passengers are far closer to the camps than they were in reality.

Incorrect -- I have increasingly refined my understanding of how close they were, including correcting your understanding of just how closely trains passed T-II.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. You're explaining why the Poles would not wish to keep Germany's "dark secret". Even if your insistence is that most were antisemitic, this doesn't explain most of them being okay with murder factories nor of them staying silent even post-war. Your position is clear and it makes no sense.

It is evidenced and makes sense, the Nazis had total control and they could do what they wanted, without any fear of repercussions from the Polish.

No, it is not 'evidenced' that 100% of Poles wanted to keep Germany's 'dark secret' and were okay with murder factories.

The smell was an issue, so they disinterred the corpses causing more smell, then burnt it all on pyres non-stop for a year, ensuring even more people would smell it?

The smell was one of three issues and as usual, you cherry-pick.

It's the only one you mentioned in your quote I responded to. You play dumb to evade challenges.

The would be shot for doing any of that. Even when reports leaked out 1941-4, they were not being believed.

They would not be shot in 1945. Nor would they be shot in 1943 when taking a photograph from 5km away in their own front yard, or for writing it in their diary, or in a letter to a friend. Nor would they be shot for simply discussing this matter with their neighbors or other villagers at the local market or restaurant.

Nessie, 450 meters is a walking distance of ~5-7 minutes at most. To pass by a massive pyre of hundreds of corpses (which would be visible at a distance of up to ~20km or more) is incredibly close-up. All that is hidden are the flames.

You are exaggerating when you said pass over.

It's a valid description. The train passed over this site regularly. Look at the map.

That was because they had no choice, as the grave pits were smelling AND the ground water was being poisoned AND a mass grave had been found at Katyn. Stop cherry-picking, it is a logical fallacy.

Hmm I'm going to need you to evidence the ground water poisoning at all three sites.

As for the smelling, we've already ruled that out as a stupid reason (disinterment + mass cremations = WAY more smelling).

We can also rule-out the Katyn issue (mass pits of bone chips = just as bad as mass pits of corpses)

Altogether, this sounds like more BS a la Nessie.

[pilgrimofdark]

In this map below (perspective-shifted and with my own markings), we see the the upper part of the Malkinia-Siedlce line including Malkinia all the way down to Kosow Lacki. I have marked the location of T-I and T-II (in green and red, respectively). I have also highlighted all of the locations nearby that I could find with clusters of ~10 or more structures (indicating a probable village and/or commercial district). There are many more structures scattered throughout the map that were not in major clusters, so I did not highlight them. Each structure could represent ~5-10 or more witnesses on a regular or daily basis as cremations at T-II surged non-stop.

I'm glad you're getting use for these higher-level documents I stumbled on a while ago.

This one might help quantify other observations.

According to the "Official municipal and village directory for the General Government based on the summary population census of March 1, 1943," these are population figures for the areas around Treblinka.

Most are highlighted on your map above. I also included Siedlce and Sokolow. The Malkinia-Siedlce line had a lot of activity related to transports to/from the east.

Malkinia total - 11,713 (includes figures below)

• Malkinia Gorna I - 5,068
• Malkinia Gorna II - 446

Prostyn total - 4,576 (includes figures below)

• Kutaski-Grady - 317
• Poniatowo (Kutaski-Stare on map) - 313
• Treblinka - 335
• Zlotki - 526

Kosow total - 9,506 (includes figures below)

• Guty - 631
• Jakubiki - 234
• Kosow Hulidow - 333
• Kosow Lacki - 1,460
• Tosie - 418
• Wolka-Okraglik - 689

Sokolow total - 9,211

Siedlce total - 38,243

Belzec and Sobibor also get entries. Sobibor was its own district administration, so "Sobibor" can refer to a district administration area, town, train station, or camp

A dispatcher from Treblinka station observed a lot of different types of military/civilian traffic in both directions on the Malkinia-Siedlce line. I just finished his memoirs, so I have to organize his observations and post wherever appropriate.

[Nessie]

It is a major point. It shows how easily confused you get and how little you understand evidencing.

Ad hominem and you're again on a 'meta-evidence' rant, feigning authority you don't have.

It is a major point that you thought Belzec camp had a Polish police office and agricultural collective and Sobibor had a forestry office, inside it. It shows a level of incompetency in your ability to investigate, that is akin to those who think that the wooden door with window that people see visiting inside Krema I, was the door for the gas chamber in 1941.

You have consistently tried to make out that train passengers are far closer to the camps than they were in reality.

Incorrect -- I have increasingly refined my understanding of how close they were, including correcting your understanding of just how closely trains passed T-II.

You have consistently made out the trains pass far closer to the camps than they do in reality. The only thing people passing by would have noticed, is the smell, which was reported to travel some distance.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. You're explaining why the Poles would not wish to keep Germany's "dark secret". Even if your insistence is that most were antisemitic, this doesn't explain most of them being okay with murder factories nor of them staying silent even post-war. Your position is clear and it makes no sense.

It is evidenced and makes sense, the Nazis had total control and they could do what they wanted, without any fear of repercussions from the Polish.

No, it is not 'evidenced' that 100% of Poles wanted to keep Germany's 'dark secret' and were okay with murder factories.

I never said that it was, strawman. It is evidenced that they were at risk if they tried to expose the secret and they had no choice in the location of the death camps.

The smell was an issue, so they disinterred the corpses causing more smell, then burnt it all on pyres non-stop for a year, ensuring even more people would smell it?

The smell was one of three issues and as usual, you cherry-pick.

It's the only one you mentioned in your quote I responded to. You play dumb to evade challenges.

You cherry-picked smell and ignored ground water and Katyn.

The would be shot for doing any of that. Even when reports leaked out 1941-4, they were not being believed.

They would not be shot in 1945. Nor would they be shot in 1943 when taking a photograph from 5km away in their own front yard, or for writing it in their diary, or in a letter to a friend. Nor would they be shot for simply discussing this matter with their neighbors or other villagers at the local market or restaurant.

They would be shot, as Zabecki feared, when he took the photo of smoke coming from TII in 1943. They would not be shot for private discussions away from any Nazis, or in 1945, once the Nazis had fled.

Nessie, 450 meters is a walking distance of ~5-7 minutes at most. To pass by a massive pyre of hundreds of corpses (which would be visible at a distance of up to ~20km or more) is incredibly close-up. All that is hidden are the flames.

You are exaggerating when you said pass over.

It's a valid description. The train passed over this site regularly. Look at the map.

Over suggests through. It did not travel through, over or even next to. At best, it was nearby, about 1/2 km away.

That was because they had no choice, as the grave pits were smelling AND the ground water was being poisoned AND a mass grave had been found at Katyn. Stop cherry-picking, it is a logical fallacy.

Hmm I'm going to need you to evidence the ground water poisoning at all three sites.

Groundwater poisoning is one of the reasons why Mattogno denied the presence of mass graves at the AR camps. Are you saying he was wrong? Mazurek said "The corpses putrefied in the large ,,death pits” poisoning the ground waters at that time and caused a terrible odor lingering around the camp. That is why the Nazi murders changed the method of hiding the evidences of crimes burning the victim’s bodies."

As for the smelling, we've already ruled that out as a stupid reason (disinterment + mass cremations = WAY more smelling).

We can also rule-out the Katyn issue (mass pits of bone chips = just as bad as mass pits of corpses)

Altogether, this sounds like more BS a la Nessie.

Why did the Nazis start to exhume mass graves and cremate the corpses, with Sonderaktion 1005? Discovery, smell, ground water poisoning and then Katyn, all seem like good reasons to me.

[pilgrimofdark]

It is a major point. It shows how easily confused you get and how little you understand evidencing.

You did the same thing here, confusing the train stations with villages that share the same name as the camps, labeling them the "nearest villages," which is inaccurate for all 3 camps.

Sobibor, Belzec and Treblinka just happened to be the nearest villages to the three main camps the Nazis used for Action Reinhardt. Of course, other activity continued in the villages and surrounding farm land and forestry. The AR camps were never going to be permanent features.

For all 3 camps, there are villages that are closer to the camps than the villages that share the same name as the camps. They are the nearest train stations, but not villages.

Does that show "how easily confused you get and how little you understand evidencing" and "a level of incompetency in your ability to investigate"?

If you hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others, that's the only conclusion.

Such are the perils of violating the forum rule on observing the principle of charity.

Well, there's always a chance for redemption.

They would be shot, as Zabecki feared, when he took the photo of smoke coming from TII in 1943.

Requesting an accurate citation for where Zabecki explicitly says he took the photo. Because that would contradict some statements Zabecki signed.

[Callafangers]

It is a major point that you thought Belzec camp had a Polish police office and agricultural collective and Sobibor had a forestry office, inside it. It shows a level of incompetency in your ability to investigate, that is akin to those who think that the wooden door with window that people see visiting inside Krema I, was the door for the gas chamber in 1941.

Coming from anyone else, I might take offense by this. But from you, it's just projection. Tell us: how many corpses were you saying (just last week) are inside the Sobibor 'ash mound'?

You seem to think it has ever mattered to me how or where the walls/fences of Belzec/Sobibor/Treblinka are drawn. My issue is that the locations of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka had normal administrative operations on-site (this is why I've also incorporated Malkinia into my analysis). The 'extermination' camps Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka are all within short walking distance of the namesake villages and shared a train station and other utilities. This aligns with all of my original points on this matter. Visitors to the Belzec train station, for example, would be less than ~1/2 mile from the actual 'extermination' operations, hence within earshot of loud screams from the camp. And all of the village residents and visitors would absolutely have major issues with foul corpse smoke blown upwind into their homes and businesses.

There is also the matter of a district agricultural cooperative (i.e. ties to farming labor networks) being established right when/where Jews were being sent in early 1942.

YYou have consistently made out the trains pass far closer to the camps than they do in reality. The only thing people passing by would have noticed, is the smell, which was reported to travel some distance.

No, Nessie, this is more of your repetitive nonsense. I have provided quantified measurements wherever I have depicted distances. You were proven wrong on the railway distance to T-II cremations so now you are back to spouting slogans.

They would be shot, as Zabecki feared, when he took the photo of smoke coming from TII in 1943. They would not be shot for private discussions away from any Nazis, or in 1945, once the Nazis had fled.

No, they would not be shot from several KM away when no Nazis were anywhere in sight. To say that nobody with a camera could possibly photograph a biblical-scale volcano-plume burning nonstop all year long is asinine. They could photograph it out a window from within their home 2, 5, 10+km away and never, ever be caught for it, or between some trees while outside, etc. This is obvious.

Over suggests through. It did not travel through, over or even next to. At best, it was nearby, about 1/2 km away.

Over suggests right over a marking/location on a map. Within a ~5 minute walking distance is definitely 'passing right over' in terms of a railway line moving past spectacle as big as a volcanic cloud.

Groundwater poisoning is one of the reasons why Mattogno denied the presence of mass graves at the AR camps. Are you saying he was wrong? Mazurek said "The corpses putrefied in the large ,,death pits” poisoning the ground waters at that time and caused a terrible odor lingering around the camp. That is why the Nazi murders changed the method of hiding the evidences of crimes burning the victim’s bodies."

I am asking you to commit either way. Are you saying there was groundwater poisoning confirmed at Treblinka, specifically?

Why did the Nazis start to exhume mass graves and cremate the corpses, with Sonderaktion 1005? Discovery, smell, ground water poisoning and then Katyn, all seem like good reasons to me.

There was no 'Sonderaktion 1005'. Groundwater poisoning is the only rationale that could make some sense but it runs you into other problems once established. Let's clarify whether you acknowledge this as an evidenced reason.

[Wetzelrad]

Would it also be relevant to say that all three of these camps are alleged to have used large mechanical excavators to dig and excavate graves? Here is a photo from the deathcamps website of the Treblinka quarry excavator that was supposedly used at Treblinka II. It looks to be 10+ meters tall. Wouldn't this be easily seen and heard by anyone nearby?

[Callafangers]

Would it also be relevant to say that all three of these camps are alleged to have used large mechanical excavators to dig and excavate graves? Here is a photo from the deathcamps website of the Treblinka quarry excavator that was supposedly used at Treblinka II. It looks to be 10+ meters tall. Wouldn't this be easily seen and heard by anyone nearby?

I think it would be very noisy and make it even easier for surrounding residents to piece together what was happening, especially with non-stop operations as alleged. That said, this part of Poland has very tall pine trees (I checked it out on Google Street View some time ago; can also compare to the topography shown in the maps provided by pilgrimofdark) so I am not confident that even something as tall as 10+ meters would be visible from the roadside/railway there. The main issue would be the noise level (nearest villages ~1/2 mile away) and the massive noxious/foul smoke plumes for month after month.

[Nessie]

It is a major point. It shows how easily confused you get and how little you understand evidencing.

You did the same thing here, confusing the train stations with villages that share the same name as the camps, labeling them the "nearest villages," which is inaccurate for all 3 camps.

Sobibor, Belzec and Treblinka just happened to be the nearest villages to the three main camps the Nazis used for Action Reinhardt. Of course, other activity continued in the villages and surrounding farm land and forestry. The AR camps were never going to be permanent features.

For all 3 camps, there are villages that are closer to the camps than the villages that share the same name as the camps. They are the nearest train stations, but not villages.

Does that show "how easily confused you get and how little you understand evidencing" and "a level of incompetency in your ability to investigate"?

If you hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others, that's the only conclusion.

Such are the perils of violating the forum rule on observing the principle of charity.

Well, there's always a chance for redemption.

They would be shot, as Zabecki feared, when he took the photo of smoke coming from TII in 1943.

Requesting an accurate citation for where Zabecki explicitly says he took the photo. Because that would contradict some statements Zabecki signed.

I am aware of all of that, but it is nitpicking and nothing on the level of thinking Belzec had a police station inside it, manned by polish police officers.

[Nessie]

....

You seem to think it has ever mattered to me how or where the walls/fences of Belzec/Sobibor/Treblinka are drawn.

Of course it matters.

My issue is that the locations of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka had normal administrative operations on-site (this is why I've also incorporated Malkinia into my analysis).

That is incorrect, they were purely AR camps, with no police stations, agricultural cooperatives or forestry offices inside them.

The 'extermination' camps Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka are all within short walking distance of the namesake villages and shared a train station and other utilities.

Despite the proximity, what happened inside the camps was kept separate from outside. Witnesses talk about the security around the camps and the Sobibor photos show how the fences were covered to stop people from seeing inside. They also had their own train stations, inside the camp.

This aligns with all of my original points on this matter. Visitors to the Belzec train station, for example, would be less than ~1/2 mile from the actual 'extermination' operations, hence within earshot of loud screams from the camp. And all of the village residents and visitors would absolutely have major issues with foul corpse smoke blown upwind into their homes and businesses.

Who would they get to complain to, about the smell and any noise?

There is also the matter of a district agricultural cooperative (i.e. ties to farming labor networks) being established right when/where Jews were being sent in early 1942.

That is an example of your poor level of evidencing. Since you cannot find a single eyewitness who worked inside the camps that you believe, or evidence to prove mass transports back out of the camps, you look for anything, no matter how obviously irrelevant it is, to construct strange hypothesis that only make sense to you.

YYou have consistently made out the trains pass far closer to the camps than they do in reality. The only thing people passing by would have noticed, is the smell, which was reported to travel some distance.

No, Nessie, this is more of your repetitive nonsense. I have provided quantified measurements wherever I have depicted distances. You were proven wrong on the railway distance to T-II cremations so now you are back to spouting slogans.

You used the word over, and have used the minimum distances you think you can get away with. You have not proven me wrong about distances.

They would be shot, as Zabecki feared, when he took the photo of smoke coming from TII in 1943. They would not be shot for private discussions away from any Nazis, or in 1945, once the Nazis had fled.

No, they would not be shot from several KM away when no Nazis were anywhere in sight. To say that nobody with a camera could possibly photograph a biblical-scale volcano-plume burning nonstop all year long is asinine. They could photograph it out a window from within their home 2, 5, 10+km away and never, ever be caught for it, or between some trees while outside, etc. This is obvious.

Yes it is, and apparently no Pole did take a photo. Instead, we just have multiple witness descriptions, that you clearly believe, that a terrible smell came from the camp for months on end. What caused that smell?

Over suggests through. It did not travel through, over or even next to. At best, it was nearby, about 1/2 km away.

Over suggests right over a marking/location on a map. Within a ~5 minute walking distance is definitely 'passing right over' in terms of a railway line moving past spectacle as big as a volcanic cloud.

Groundwater poisoning is one of the reasons why Mattogno denied the presence of mass graves at the AR camps. Are you saying he was wrong? Mazurek said "The corpses putrefied in the large ,,death pits” poisoning the ground waters at that time and caused a terrible odor lingering around the camp. That is why the Nazi murders changed the method of hiding the evidences of crimes burning the victim’s bodies."

I am asking you to commit either way. Are you saying there was groundwater poisoning confirmed at Treblinka, specifically?

I have only seen secondary sources, claiming poisoning the ground water was an issue. I have not seen a primary source, such as camp staff, stating it was an issue.

Why did the Nazis start to exhume mass graves and cremate the corpses, with Sonderaktion 1005? Discovery, smell, ground water poisoning and then Katyn, all seem like good reasons to me.

There was no 'Sonderaktion 1005'. Groundwater poisoning is the only rationale that could make some sense but it runs you into other problems once established. Let's clarify whether you acknowledge this as an evidenced reason.

Sonderaktion 1005 is proven. There is corroborating evidence that all over Eastern Europe, graves were exhumed and corpses cremated. Ground water appears to be a theory, with no primary sourced evidence. Katyn is corroborated as a reason to exhume and cremate.

[Nessie]

Would it also be relevant to say that all three of these camps are alleged to have used large mechanical excavators to dig and excavate graves? Here is a photo from the deathcamps website of the Treblinka quarry excavator that was supposedly used at Treblinka II. It looks to be 10+ meters tall. Wouldn't this be easily seen and heard by anyone nearby?

There are references from Polish railway workers to seeing excavators inside TII. That is circumstantial evidence to corroborate the eyewitness and archaeological evidence of mass graves inside the camp.

[Nessie]

Would it also be relevant to say that all three of these camps are alleged to have used large mechanical excavators to dig and excavate graves? Here is a photo from the deathcamps website of the Treblinka quarry excavator that was supposedly used at Treblinka II. It looks to be 10+ meters tall. Wouldn't this be easily seen and heard by anyone nearby?

I think it would be very noisy and make it even easier for surrounding residents to piece together what was happening, especially with non-stop operations as alleged. That said, this part of Poland has very tall pine trees (I checked it out on Google Street View some time ago; can also compare to the topography shown in the maps provided by pilgrimofdark) so I am not confident that even something as tall as 10+ meters would be visible from the roadside/railway there. The main issue would be the noise level (nearest villages ~1/2 mile away) and the massive noxious/foul smoke plumes for month after month.

What caused that smell?

[pilgrimofdark]

Requesting an accurate citation for where Zabecki explicitly says he took the photo. Because that would contradict some statements Zabecki signed.

I am aware of all of that, but it is nitpicking and nothing on the level of thinking Belzec had a police station inside it, manned by polish police officers.

I didn't predict you would admit that you have such low disregard for yourself that you hold "so-called revisionists" to a higher standard than you are able to hold yourself.

Regardless, violation of forum rule persists:

Unanswered request for an accurate citation for where Zabecki explicitly says he took the photo.

[Nessie]

Requesting an accurate citation for where Zabecki explicitly says he took the photo. Because that would contradict some statements Zabecki signed.

I am aware of all of that, but it is nitpicking and nothing on the level of thinking Belzec had a police station inside it, manned by polish police officers.

I didn't predict you would admit that you have such low disregard for yourself that you hold "so-called revisionists" to a higher standard than you are able to hold yourself.

Regardless, violation of forum rule persists:

Unanswered request for an accurate citation for where Zabecki explicitly says he took the photo.

There are only secondary sources, such as

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/a ... a-uprising

"Top Photo: Photo of Treblinka uprising from a distance by Polish train station worker Franciszek Ząbecki."

https://www.jhi.pl/en/articles/treblink ... -1943,3964

"Treblinka burning during the uprising. Photo taken by Polish railwayman Franciszek Ząbecki. Collection of the Jewish Historical Institute"

[pilgrimofdark]

There are only secondary sources, such as

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/a ... a-uprising

"Top Photo: Photo of Treblinka uprising from a distance by Polish train station worker Franciszek Ząbecki."

https://www.jhi.pl/en/articles/treblink ... -1943,3964

"Treblinka burning during the uprising. Photo taken by Polish railwayman Franciszek Ząbecki. Collection of the Jewish Historical Institute"

Thank you. I've only found secondary sources, too.

This seems to have been garbled somewhere along the way, but understandably.

Zabecki turned the photo over to Miriam Novitch in 1965, so it's attributed to him. But Zabecki said someone else took the photo and I don't think he ever contradicted this later.

He signed a couple statements to Novitch (one handwritten, one typed) that are with the Ghetto Fighters House Archives. Zabecki said he had multiple copies of the photo.

I'll stop derailing this thread and get back to phone books.

Official Telephone Directory for the Posen District
Official Telephone Directory for the Radom District
Official telephone directory for the General District of Estonia

There were directories for the Krakau and Galicia districts, but I can't find digital copies. Since there's one for Estonia, there may be directories from other regions east of Poland.