The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by Callafangers »

bombsaway wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:27 pm
Callafangers wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 9:50 pm
Can you name a task the SS would have found more difficult by this time?
The involuntary euthanasia program, which included killing Germans

The Night of the Long Knives in which they mass killed not only political opponents but their own comrades

From the previous Posen speech which I think you were conflating this one with (please provide the full Oct 6 speech if not)
The euthanasia program was far smaller in scale and was reserved for individuals in extremely desperate situations. The Night of Long Knives was hardly 'mass killing'; it was a targeted action against traitors to the National Socialist cause.

Himmler makes 100% clear at Posen that he is talking about the tragedy of actions conducted against Jewish women and children, even appealing to the "one good Jew" that every German ostensibly had. This is undeniable in the context of his speech, here.

I didn't 'conflate' anything -- you are talking out of your ass yet again. Here is a larger excerpt of the October 6 speech:
Ich darf hier in diesem Zusammenhang und in diesem allerengsten Kreise auf eine Frage hinweisen, die Sie, meine Parteigenossen, alle als selbstverständlich hingenommen haben, die aber für mich die schwerste Frage meines Lebens geworden ist, die Judenfrage. Sie alle nehmen es als selbstverständlich und erfreulich hin, daß in Ihrem Gau keine Juden mehr sind. Alle deutschen Menschen - abgesehen von einzelnen Ausnahmen - sind sich auch darüber klar, daß wir den Bombenkrieg, die Belastungen des vierten und des vielleicht kommenden fünften und sechsten Kriegsjahres nicht ausgehalten hätten und nicht aushalten würden, wenn wir diese zersetzende Pest noch in unserem Volkskörper hätten. Der Satz 'Die Juden müssen ausgerottet werden' mit seinen wenigen Worten, meine Herren, ist leicht ausgesprochen. Für den, der durchführen muß, was er fordert, ist es das Allerhärteste und Schwerste, was es gibt. Sehen Sie, natürlich sind es Juden, es ist ganz klar, es sind nur Juden, bedenken Sie aber selbst, wie viele - auch Parteigenossen - ihr berühmtes Gesuch an mich oder irgendeine Stelle gerichtet haben, in dem es hieß, daß alle Juden selbstverständlich Schweine seien, daß bloß der Soundso ein anständiger Jude sei, dem man nichts tun dürfe. Ich wage zu behaupten, daß es nach der Anzahl der Gesuche und der Anzahl der Meinungen in Deutschland mehr anständige Juden gegeben hat als Oberhaupt nominell vorhanden waren. In Deutschland haben wir nämlich so viele Millionen Menschen, die ihren einen berühmten anständigen Juden haben, daß diese Zahl bereits größer ist als die Zahl der Juden. Ich will das bloß deshalb anführen, weil Sie aus dem Lebensbereich Ihres eigenen Gaues bei achtbaren und anständigen nationalsozialistischen Menschen feststellen können, daß auch von ihnen jeder einen anständigen Juden kennt.

Ich bitte Sie, das, was ich Ihnen in diesem Kreise sage, wirklich nur zu hören und nie darüber zu sprechen. Es trat an uns die Frage heran: Wie ist es mit den Frauen und Kindern? - ich habe mich entschlossen, auch hier eine ganz klare Lösung zu finden. Ich hielt mich nämlich nicht für berechtigt, die Männer auszurotten - sprich also, umzubringen oder umbringen zu lassen - und die Rächer in Gestalt der Kinder für unsere Söhne und Enkel groß werden zu lassen. Es mußte der schwere Entschluß gefaßt werden, dieses Volk von der Erde verschwinden zu lassen. Für die Organisation, die den Auftrag durchfuhren mußte, war es der schwerste, den wir bisher hatten. Er ist durchgeführt worden, ohne daß - wie ich glaube sagen zu können - unsere Männer und unsere Führer einen Schaden an Geist und Seele erlitten hätten. Diese Gefahr lag sehr nahe. Der Weg zwischen den beiden hier bestehenden Möglichkeiten, entweder zu roh zu werden, herzlos zu werden und menschliches Leben nicht mehr zu achten oder weich zu werden und durchzudrehen bis zu Nervenzusammenbrüchen - der Weg zwischen dieser Scylla und Charybdis ist entsetzlich schmal.

Wir haben das ganze Vermögen, das wir bei den Juden beschlagnahmten - es ging in unendliche Werte -, bis zum letzten Pfennig an den Reichswirtschaftsminister abgeführt. Ich habe mich immer auf den Standpunkt gestellt: Wir haben die Verpflichtung unserem Volke, unserer Rasse gegenüber, wenn wir den Krieg gewinnen wollen - wir haben die Verpflichtung unserem Führer gegenüber, der nun in 2000 Jahren unserem Volke einmal geschenkt worden ist, hier nicht klein zu sein und hier konsequent zu sein. Wir haben aber nicht das Recht, auch nur einen Pfennig von dem beschlagnahmten Judenvermögen zu nehmen. Ich habe von vornherein festgesetzt, daß SS-Männer, auch wenn sie nur eine Mark davon nehmen, des Todes sind. ich habe in den letzten Tagen deswegen einige, ich kann es ruhig sagen, es sind etwa ein Dutzend - Todesurteile unterschrieben. Hier muß man hart sein, wenn nicht das Ganze darunter leiden soll. - Ich habe mich für verpflichtet gehalten, zu Ihnen als den obersten Willensträgern, als den obersten Würdenträgern der Partei, dieses politischen Ordens, dieses politischen Instruments des Führers, auch über diese Frage einmal ganz offen zu sprechen und zu sagen, wie es gewesen ist. - Die Judenfrage in den von uns besetzten Ländern wird bis Ende dieses Jahres erledigt sein. Es werden nur Restbestände von einzelnen Juden übrig bleiben, die untergeschlüpft sind. Die Frage der mit nichtjüdischen Teilen verheirateten Juden und die Frage der Halbjuden werden sinngemäß und vernünftig untersucht, entschieden und dann gelöst.
Once again: all of this is broken down in detail with all of the key words provided in original German, analyzed in-depth (and compared to the October 4th speech and other period context), in the link I have already provided to you multiple times.

Kindly stop evading/obfsucating. All of your arguments have already been addressed and crushed into a fine paste.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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bombsaway wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:33 pm
Stubble wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:18 pm The war in the East was most definitely difficult. Add to that antipartisan operations and expatriation/expropriation, and yes, it was one of the most difficult tasks imaginable.

Look at an evacuation in the donbas some time, either side, it ain't easy work, under fire...
So to be clear

in this passage
I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth.
you agree with Callafangers that he is actually unambiguously stating the men were NOT killed because that would have meant they would have to kill the women and children. And so instead of this they decided to expel the Jews.
I'm saying that relying on words is extremely weak. I mean, Hoess confessed to killing 3,000,000 jews at Auschwitz, do you think 3,000,000 jews died at Auschwitz?

If there was evidence, actual evidence, it would be shown, instead we have some memos we are told to interpret a certain way and some words.

Look, if the population of Seattle is in the dirt at Treblinka II, that shouldn't be hard to prove, show me. If a quarter of a million people are in the dirt at Sobibor, same thing, show me.

I've got Speer saying 'we are going to bust them up in to group of 20-2,000 and put them in work details'. I've got jews transited through the Aktion Reinhardt camps in the West. I've even got demonstrable transports to the East, although, I'm told the ones that are undeniable were 'a one time thing', 'isolated' and exist in a vacuum.

To prove to you they went East, I have to quantify and qualify numbers and show them temporally in motion. I have to show you 'where they goed'. This is something exterminationists refuse to do. They say 'they are in the dirt along the Bug River' even though that is demonstrably false.

I mean, bombs, look at it. Really, really look at it.

A guy can lie, a guy can be mistaken, a guy can say whatever he wants, but, at the end of the day, you can not erase a mass grave.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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The difficult decision had to be made to wipe this people from the face of the earth. For the organization that had to carry out the mission, it was the most difficult we had ever faced. It was carried out without—as I believe I can say—our men and our leaders suffering any damage to mind or spirit. This danger was very close. The path between the two possibilities here—either becoming too brutal, heartless, and no longer respecting human life, or becoming weak and going mad to the point of nervous breakdowns—the path between this Scylla and Charybdis is terrifyingly narrow.
This is great stuff. In the east millions of Slavs are starving to death, cities being starved out / destroyed, hundreds of thousands of Germans dying in the most brutal conditions imaginable, all in the name of this war, which is really an existential one for survival of the German race. The above all opponent is the Jews, with whom the Nazis blame for this entire existential war and see themselves as locked in a life and death struggle with. For the leaders, who Himmler is talking to, and for Himmler himself, the consequences are real. Their own lives (and even their families) hang in the balance, something proven by the mass suicides that took place at the end.

And your expectation is that Himmler and these bureaucrats are close to being driven insane/losing their humanity through their involvement in moving Jews eastward?

In my opinion the posters on this board who consider this an easy truth have a very limited understanding of history and human nature.
Last edited by bombsaway on Fri Dec 26, 2025 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by bombsaway »

Stubble wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 11:16 pm
bombsaway wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:33 pm
Stubble wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:18 pm The war in the East was most definitely difficult. Add to that antipartisan operations and expatriation/expropriation, and yes, it was one of the most difficult tasks imaginable.

Look at an evacuation in the donbas some time, either side, it ain't easy work, under fire...
So to be clear

in this passage
I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth.
you agree with Callafangers that he is actually unambiguously stating the men were NOT killed because that would have meant they would have to kill the women and children. And so instead of this they decided to expel the Jews.
I'm saying that relying on words is extremely weak. I mean, Hoess confessed to killing 3,000,000 jews at Auschwitz, do you think 3,000,000 jews died at Auschwitz?

If there was evidence, actual evidence, it would be shown, instead we have some memos we are told to interpret a certain way and some words.

Look, if the population of Seattle is in the dirt at Treblinka II, that shouldn't be hard to prove, show me. If a quarter of a million people are in the dirt at Sobibor, same thing, show me.

I've got Speer saying 'we are going to bust them up in to group of 20-2,000 and put them in work details'. I've got jews transited through the Aktion Reinhardt camps in the West. I've even got demonstrable transports to the East, although, I'm told the ones that are undeniable were 'a one time thing', 'isolated' and exist in a vacuum.

To prove to you they went East, I have to quantify and qualify numbers and show them temporally in motion. I have to show you 'where they goed'. This is something exterminationists refuse to do. They say 'they are in the dirt along the Bug River' even though that is demonstrably false.

I mean, bombs, look at it. Really, really look at it.

A guy can lie, a guy can be mistaken, a guy can say whatever he wants, but, at the end of the day, you can not erase a mass grave.
"They say 'they are in the dirt along the Bug River' even though that is demonstrably false."

I disagree with your assessment of the findings there and think they spin the other way. We have a disagreement about what the evidence suggests. With resettlement there's nothing to debate really. I'm debating the possibility of something.

Why are you bothering to do this even ('show where they goed')? Are there consequences to you not finding anything, or revisionists never finding anything? I've asked you this question like 10 times and I feel like it would be pretty simple one to answer but unless I missed something you haven't answered directly.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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Let's not derail the thread here Bombsaway.

I'm simply pointing out that rhetoric as 'evidence' is dubious at best.

If you want to ruminate on archeology, let's take that to a relevant thread.

Regarding 'why bother', well, the open question is basically the remaining bone of contention. They aren't in the dirt on the Bug River bombs, so, they went some place. I need to show where they went, then the whole jewish question can be safely put into the annals of history.

The genocide narrative, how it came to be, and why it stood for 80+ years will of course merit study. Ultimately though, much of that research is resolved as well.

I remember in the past you asked 'who done it' and you acted like the task of setting the narrative would be 'impossible'. You failed to account for the fact that there were literal armies of propagandists working on it. Buchenwald table? The OSS. Majdanek? The Soviets. Dachau? The OSS. It just goes on and on. It wasn't 1 guy in a trenchcoat man, I can't point at some guy dressed like mcgruff the crime dog and say 'it was him!'. Ultimately, it was a group effort.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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bombsaway wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 12:20 am This is great stuff. In the east millions of Slavs are starving to death, cities being starved out / destroyed, hundreds of thousands of Germans dying in the most brutal conditions imaginable, all in the name of this war, which is really an existential one for survival of the German race. The above all opponent is the Jews, with whom the Nazis blame for this entire existential war and see themselves as locked in a life and death struggle with. For the leaders, who Himmler is talking to, and for Himmler himself, the consequences are real. Their own lives (and even their families) hang in the balance, something proven by the mass suicides that took place at the end.

And your expectation is that Himmler and these bureaucrats are close to being driven insane/losing their humanity through their involvement in moving Jews eastward?

In my opinion the posters on this board who consider this an easy truth have a very limited understanding of history and human nature.
bombsaway, you said:
In the east millions of Slavs are starving to death, cities being starved out / destroyed, hundreds of thousands of Germans dying in the most brutal conditions imaginable
But none of these are hands-on tasks that the SS themselves had to carry out against the friends and neighbors of Germans, within German territories, on German streets. You don't need me to convince you -- Himmler himself explains exactly what he means, talking about the "decent Jew" every German knows and explaining why these actions had to affect all Jews, women and children included. Kicking in the doors of a German woman's favorite babysitter or neighbor, or the German teenager's girlfriend and forcing them into trucks and trains while kicking and screaming [and then subsequently dispossessing them entirely, forced onto horrific trains, etc.] is traumatizing for everyone involved. This is something unprecedented in German history by that time.

All of this is made abundantly and unmistakably clear in Himmler's own words, especially when comparing to the October 4th speech where he talks again about the same thing (each German's "decent Jew" and the trauma of carrying out deportations to the East, which he therein phrases explicitly as "deportations", not even "ausrottung").

There is so much evidence against your interpretation that it is difficult to know where to begin, which is why I simply refer back to my linked breakdown of both Posen speeches, which goes through all relevant portions of each.

Here it is again: viewtopic.php?p=8846#p8846
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by bombsaway »

Callafangers wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 3:44 am
All of this is made abundantly and unmistakably clear in Himmler's own words, especially when comparing to the October 4th speech where he talks again about the same thing (each German's "decent Jew" and the trauma of carrying out deportations to the East, which he therein phrases explicitly as "deportations", not even "ausrottung").



In the October 4 speech, is that what you think the "never-written and never-to-be-written glorious chapter of our history" is?
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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bombsaway wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:08 am In the October 4 speech, is that what you think the "never-written and never-to-be-written glorious chapter of our history" is?
bombsaway, you're simply 'baiting' me into re-stating arguments which are already made (and won) in the post I keep linking you to. I suppose you're hoping I get lazy and stop responding so you can pretend you have scored a point; is this how desperate you have become?

I respond to that exact phrase (and all others of interest) in the post already linked.

They did not need to write this chapter of the history since they all already knew it and shuddered at the thought of what it would be like if they still had the horrors of 1916/17. This is the only rational interpretation of what Himmler describes here, when read in context.

Here's another example of what you ignore in the post I keep linking for you:
[October 4th Posen speech:]
It is one of those things that's easy to say: "The Jewish people will be extirpated [ausgerottet]", says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination [Ausschaltung] of the Jews, extirpation [Ausrottung] ; that's what we're doing." And then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it's quite clear that the others are pigs, but this one is one first-class Jew.
Here, the entire establishment logic falls apart on two key observations:

- If Himmler is suggesting here "extermination", it's completely untenable that when every single German (80 million) has their own "decent Jew", that "every Party comrade" (some 7 million or so Germans by this time) would at the same time feel it is "easy to say" they are exterminating all Jews.
- The NSDAP Party program (referenced here by Himmler as containing the same policy now being discussed) has no mention whatsoever (nor anything even implied) of “extermination”. It specifically enables expulsion, and was published years earlier when no one claims “extermination” was even remotely considered.
bombsaway, can you explain where in the NSDAP Party program (published in the late 1920s) it is mentioned that the Jews are to be "exterminated"? :lol:

Don't dodge this, bombsaway. I desperately need to see where it says this so that I can finally believe in the 'Holocaust'.

In truth, this statement alone is a direct proof against the 'Holocaust'. It is one which no exterminationist has been able to conjure a tenable argument against.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by bombsaway »

Callafangers wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:36 am
bombsaway wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:08 am In the October 4 speech, is that what you think the "never-written and never-to-be-written glorious chapter of our history" is?
bombsaway, you're simply 'baiting' me into re-stating arguments which are already made (and won) in the post I keep linking you to. I suppose you're hoping I get lazy and stop responding so you can pretend you have scored a point; is this how desperate you have become?

I respond to that exact phrase (and all others of interest) in the post already linked.

They did not need to write this chapter of the history since they all already knew it and shuddered at the thought of what it would be like if they still had the horrors of 1916/17. This is the only rational interpretation of what Himmler describes here, when read in context.

Here's another example of what you ignore in the post I keep linking for you:
[October 4th Posen speech:]
It is one of those things that's easy to say: "The Jewish people will be extirpated [ausgerottet]", says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination [Ausschaltung] of the Jews, extirpation [Ausrottung] ; that's what we're doing." And then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it's quite clear that the others are pigs, but this one is one first-class Jew.
Here, the entire establishment logic falls apart on two key observations:

- If Himmler is suggesting here "extermination", it's completely untenable that when every single German (80 million) has their own "decent Jew", that "every Party comrade" (some 7 million or so Germans by this time) would at the same time feel it is "easy to say" they are exterminating all Jews.
- The NSDAP Party program (referenced here by Himmler as containing the same policy now being discussed) has no mention whatsoever (nor anything even implied) of “extermination”. It specifically enables expulsion, and was published years earlier when no one claims “extermination” was even remotely considered.
bombsaway, can you explain where in the NSDAP Party program (published in the late 1920s) it is mentioned that the Jews are to be "exterminated"? :lol:

Don't dodge this, bombsaway. I desperately need to see where it says this so that I can finally believe in the 'Holocaust'.

In truth, this statement alone is a direct proof against the 'Holocaust'. It is one which no exterminationist has been able to conjure a tenable argument against.
I think you're an eminently unreasonable person so there's not much use in going down these rabbit holes w you

we can leave it to the audience

You speak of baby sitters and girlfriends getting deported but the Nuremberg laws outlawed doing business with Jews or marrying them. They were treated way worse than blacks in the Jim Crowe, and when they left their property and wealth was seized (this was before the war even).

And yet you expect people to take seriously the notion that SS men, the most ideologically committed of all Nazis, were on the brink of insanity or close to losing their humanity because they were moving them

Also Himmler, in the very same Posen speech
One basic principle must hold absolutely true for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian or a Czech does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death[2] interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our Kultur; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch is completed for Germany. We shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When somebody comes to me and says, “I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it would kill them,” then I have to say, “You are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and they are sons of German mothers. They are our own blood.”
These guys were utterly ruthless. The war cost the USSR 25 million, mostly civilians. And Jews occupied a much higher place on the racial totem pole of animus.

Your question is silly because I don't think the extermination program was decided on until 1941. So I wouldn't expect that to be in the program.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

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bombsaway wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 7:43 am I think you're an eminently unreasonable person so there's not much use in going down these rabbit holes w you

we can leave it to the audience

You speak of baby sitters and girlfriends getting deported but the Nuremberg laws outlawed doing business with Jews or marrying them. They were treated way worse than blacks in the Jim Crowe, and when they left their property and wealth was seized (this was before the war even).
Jews brought their valuables with them to the ghettos. Nuremberg laws did not stop relationships between various individual Jews and Europeans that had developed across decades.

"Erika's" elderly neighbor, "David", was still someone she thought of amicably even once the war advanced and David and his family were already being separated or harassed (otherwise, what is Himmler talking about when referring to every German's "good/decent Jew"?).

Only by ignoring Himmler's actual words are you able to maintain a facade that you're being rational here, bombsaway. But it's written plain as day.

There is no question that Himmler is speaking brutally and frankly throughout his entire speech, here. Yet, strangely enough, even though you can find him speaking overtly about the murder of Russians and hypothetically about Jewish men, you only turn up 'code words' for Jews as a whole. How inconvenient.
bombsaway wrote:And yet you expect people to take seriously the notion that SS men, the most ideologically committed of all Nazis, were on the brink of insanity or close to losing their humanity because they were moving them
Nobody anywhere said the Nazis were "on the brink of insanity or close to losing their humanity because they were moving [Jews]". This is a massive strawman on your part.

All that Himmler says here is that this was the most difficult task the SS had undertaken. He doesn't say "most emotional task" nor "most traumatic task". In fact, he emphasizes that Germans were overall able to maintain respect for human life. He is speaking of the overall approach on Jewish policy which includes evacuations as well as any executions deemed necessary (many of which included Jewish women/children). Altogether, there is no doubt a considerable amount of trauma involved but it is also the scale of the work, here (and sensitivities regarding women and children specifically), which sets it apart.
bombsaway wrote:Also Himmler, in the very same Posen speech
One basic principle must hold absolutely true for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian or a Czech does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death[2] interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our Kultur; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch is completed for Germany. We shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When somebody comes to me and says, “I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it would kill them,” then I have to say, “You are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and they are sons of German mothers. They are our own blood.”
These guys were utterly ruthless. The war cost the USSR 25 million, mostly civilians. And Jews occupied a much higher place on the racial totem pole of animus.
If "they" were all ruthless, Himmler would not need to give them this brutal "pep talk". Yes, they coordinated many horrific tasks. Yes, Jews were lower on the totem pole. None of this changes that actions against Jews were among the most horrible, regardless of any 'Holocaust'.
bombsaway wrote:Your question is silly because I don't think the extermination program was decided on until 1941. So I wouldn't expect that to be in the program.
Let's have another look at what question you're referring to:
[October 4th Posen speech:]
It is one of those things that's easy to say: "The Jewish people will be extirpated [ausgerottet]", says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination [Ausschaltung] of the Jews, extirpation [Ausrottung] ; that's what we're doing." And then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew. Of course, it's quite clear that the others are pigs, but this one is one first-class Jew.
Here, the entire establishment logic falls apart on two key observations:

- If Himmler is suggesting here "extermination", it's completely untenable that when every single German (80 million) has their own "decent Jew", that "every Party comrade" (some 7 million or so Germans by this time) would at the same time feel it is "easy to say" they are exterminating all Jews.
- The NSDAP Party program (referenced here by Himmler as containing the same policy now being discussed) has no mention whatsoever (nor anything even implied) of “extermination”. It specifically enables expulsion, and was published years earlier when no one claims “extermination” was even remotely considered.
bombsaway, can you explain where in the NSDAP Party program (published in the late 1920s) it is mentioned that the Jews are to be "exterminated"? :lol:

Don't dodge this, bombsaway.
It certainly seems like you are dodging the question, bombsaway. Again, you said:
Your question is silly because I don't think the extermination program was decided on until 1941. So I wouldn't expect that to be in the program.
...but Himmler is definitely not referring to an 'extermination program', here. Here is what he says:
It is one of those things that's easy to say: "The Jewish people will be extirpated [ausgerottet]", says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination [Ausschaltung] of the Jews, extirpation [Ausrottung] ; that's what we're doing." And then they all come along, these 80 million good Germans, and every one of them has his decent Jew.
Are all seven million Party members announcing [to 80 million Germans], "we are exterminating the Jews"?

:lol:
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by bombsaway »

Callafangers wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 8:56 am
bombsaway wrote:And yet you expect people to take seriously the notion that SS men, the most ideologically committed of all Nazis, were on the brink of insanity or close to losing their humanity because they were moving them
Nobody anywhere said the Nazis were "on the brink of insanity or close to losing their humanity because they were moving [Jews]". This is a massive strawman on your part.

All that Himmler says here is that this was the most difficult task the SS had undertaken.
"It was carried out without—as I believe I can say—our men and our leaders suffering any damage to mind or spirit. This danger was very close. The path between the two possibilities here—either becoming too brutal, heartless, and no longer respecting human life, or becoming weak and going mad to the point of nervous breakdowns—the path between this Scylla and Charybdis is terrifyingly narrow."

brink of insanity "mad to the point of nervous breakdowns"

losing their humanity "becoming too brutal, heartless, and no longer respecting human life"

I don't think this is a strawman and the audience can decide.

I think if extermination was decided on in 1941 it would have been part of the program then but not what they had in 1920. What the heck is this?
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by Callafangers »

bombsaway wrote: Fri Dec 26, 2025 9:36 ambrink of insanity "mad to the point of nervous breakdowns"

losing their humanity "becoming too brutal, heartless, and no longer respecting human life"

I don't think this is a strawman and the audience can decide.
I see what you're referring to however this does not change the fact that the scale (all across Europe) and brutal nature of treatment of Jews (ranging from brutal evacuations to mass shootings) is sufficient to explain the concern, here.

The audience always decides, bombsaway. Revisionism has clearly been winning.
bombsaway wrote:I think if extermination was decided on in 1941 it would have been part of the program then but not what they had in 1920. What the heck is this?
I am dumbfounded but it seems you are not familiar with the NSDAP Party Program as an actual, official document:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... st_Program

This program was a constant and regularly referenced by members/leaders in the party. This is clearly the program Himmler is referring to, as he suggests "every Party comrade" referring to it. This makes no sense in the context of 'extermination' but aligns perfectly in the context of expulsion.
Forensics lack both graves and chambers—only victors' ink stains history's page.
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by Monsieur Sceptique »

HansHill wrote: Wed Dec 24, 2025 7:57 pm I see your points MS, and to an extent I agree with you, especially this part:
A sentence can only have one meaning, and a word cannot mean two different things in the same sentence. It is either one or the other. One solution automatically excludes the other
However, just a comment on the line of argument of "destroying" France. While technically this is correct in that the Nation (comprising it's system of government and institutions) would be "destroyed", this is an unusual way to phrase it in English. "To destroy" almost certainly doesn't work in this context, and absolutely holds no parallel to the physical killing of a human being, viz-a-viz, murder.

A more commonly used phraseology here, depending on the speaker of course, might be something more like "to carve France up", which gives us the same net result (the cessation of its forms of governments, institutions etc) with the added benefit of conveying that it has been broken into smaller parts. This language clearly also has no parallel to killing a human, and if anything, would more closely resemble the butchering of an animal carcass for eating. Just quirks of the language!

Note that around this time (as well as many other eras of history) many many many countries were "carved up", including Germany itself into four after then war (and later two).

Also as an FYI, Nessie currently is temporarily restricted from posting here. So if / when he replies to you, it will be in the Quarantine section.
Yes, in this case i would use the term "démanteler"(dismantle it) to his equivalent. Nessie would answer later if he want
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by Monsieur Sceptique »

Stubble wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 2:48 pm That we are down to quibbling about innuendo, in my opinion, is very telling about the whole situation.

We aren't looking at Huge Mass Graves, we aren't looking at the names of the missing, no, nothing of the sort. We are looking at words and saying, 'well, there was an implication of genocide if you squint'...

Also, Merry Christmas everyone.
I think you are mistaken. Words can point in a certain direction and indicate intent. There is no doubt that the technical debate is essential. But let us assume that the gas chambers did not exist, but that the documents show that there was an intention to exterminate them, based on textual analysis. That would not change the fact that there was an intention to exterminate them and that there was an attempt to commit genocide by other means (the Holocaust by bullet). The text allows us to know how to interpret the actions. Was the Holocaust by bullet an anti-partisan struggle or was it an attempt to exterminate the Jewish people? The two approaches are complementary.
Merry christmas
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Re: The holocaust inside Generalplan Ost

Post by Monsieur Sceptique »

Stubble wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 11:16 pm
bombsaway wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:33 pm
Stubble wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2025 10:18 pm The war in the East was most definitely difficult. Add to that antipartisan operations and expatriation/expropriation, and yes, it was one of the most difficult tasks imaginable.

Look at an evacuation in the donbas some time, either side, it ain't easy work, under fire...
So to be clear

in this passage
I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth.
you agree with Callafangers that he is actually unambiguously stating the men were NOT killed because that would have meant they would have to kill the women and children. And so instead of this they decided to expel the Jews.
I'm saying that relying on words is extremely weak. I mean, Hoess confessed to killing 3,000,000 jews at Auschwitz, do you think 3,000,000 jews died at Auschwitz?

If there was evidence, actual evidence, it would be shown, instead we have some memos we are told to interpret a certain way and some words.

Look, if the population of Seattle is in the dirt at Treblinka II, that shouldn't be hard to prove, show me. If a quarter of a million people are in the dirt at Sobibor, same thing, show me.

I've got Speer saying 'we are going to bust them up in to group of 20-2,000 and put them in work details'. I've got jews transited through the Aktion Reinhardt camps in the West. I've even got demonstrable transports to the East, although, I'm told the ones that are undeniable were 'a one time thing', 'isolated' and exist in a vacuum.

To prove to you they went East, I have to quantify and qualify numbers and show them temporally in motion. I have to show you 'where they goed'. This is something exterminationists refuse to do. They say 'they are in the dirt along the Bug River' even though that is demonstrably false.

I mean, bombs, look at it. Really, really look at it.

A guy can lie, a guy can be mistaken, a guy can say whatever he wants, but, at the end of the day, you can not erase a mass grave.
Interesting, i want to you see you work when it's finished
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