Himmler's Suicide Doesn't Make Any Sense

[Stubble]

I was listening to 𝔉𝔩𝔬𝔬𝔡 today and he was going over Himmler. He reviewed this David Irving oration. This is the first time I've ever heard the narrative of how Himmler committed suicide.



It doesn't make any damn sense.

[Archie]

I've moved this here. Stubble, can you give us a summary of the key points?

I watched that Irving speech a while ago. IIRC the main points are 1) the suicide capsules are large, around 2 inches, 2) the British reports say Himmler's capsule was confiscated when he was brought into custody, 3) it is unlikely that Himmler would have had a spare capsule in his mouth as, again, the capsules were large, and he was reported to have eaten in the car shortly before his death.

[Stubble]

You pretty much nailed it boss. Goes further.

Let's look at when he took it. I mean, that's pretty basically the wrong time. If the man were going to punch his own ticket it wouldn't have been exactly when he was being searched for the instrument of suicide, would it? He had every opportunity before capture and before the search. He didn't do it. Then he magically has a massive cyanide pill in his mouth no one can see and manages to off himself with it, then, his nose gets broken or whatever?

Then there is the guard interview where he speaks in American English. Why? Why is the guard speaking in American English?

Then there is the evidence of a beating.

I'm pretty sure he died during an interrogation 'gone too far' because he wouldn't answer the questions 'the right way'.

While there is a lot I disagree with Irving on with regard to The H, here, I think he makes a compelling case about Himmler's suicide.

(Sorry for putting this in the wrong section, it does fit much better here).

[Archie]

An image of an SS suicide capsule.



The metal casing is 46 mm.

It would be good to confirm the documents he references. Maybe they are available at his archive site?
viewtopic.php?t=655

[Archie]

Incidentally, the whole suicide-capsule-in-a-false-tooth thing that you see in spy movies is mostly a myth. Spies and pilots were sometimes given suicide capsules but they were usually just kept in the case or perhaps sewn into the clothes. You would only be able to hide it your mouth for a limited amount of time.

This article acknowledges the idea is pretty much a myth. But it seems to take the Himmler story as given.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/c ... s-not-real

“I think the reason it’s become such a popular pop culture trope is because there have been a number of people who have hidden cyanide capsules in their mouths, and certainly they use their teeth to use it,” says Vince Houghton, curator at the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. “Himmler’s a good example of this. Actually there are a lot of Nazis that chose that way out.”

So the scenario that is envisioned must be that Himmler ditched the casing and had the ampule in his mouth (presumably for many hours) and bit it when the doctor tried to look in his mouth.

[Stubble]

I mean, procedure was followed, he was stripped and given a blanket, then the Dr inspected him. He turns up dead, with a broken nose, of apparent suicide, after being arrested and, you know, not committing suicide...

Some sixty years later, Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler’s death remains shrouded in mystery.

https://archive.is/20230821062421/https ... n-mystery/

There, he was stripped and given a blanket to wear because he would not put on a British uniform before being medically examined by a British doctor. Once more the medic was looking for SS cough drops. Again, the British doctor found no sign of the so-called lethal pill. While Murphy listened, Himmler ranted how he was too important to deal with “underlings.” He wanted to talk to General Dwight D. Eisenhower, supreme commander of Allied forces in Europe. From that, he went on to the need for the Western Allies and the defeated Germans to band together to fight against the Soviet Union before it was too late.

Watching all this, the British doctor started to have second thoughts. Himmler was too confident, too smug. It was as if he still had some last ace up his sleeve. He stopped the interrogation and asked Himmler to come over to the window where there was more light. He wanted to look into the German’s mouth. It was then that Himmler must have realized the game was up.

As the medical officer put his finger into Himmler’s mouth and spotted the cyanide capsule, Himmler bit down hard. The doctor yelled and pulled out his bitten finger in the same instant that Himmler swallowed the contents of the hidden capsule.

While the guy is talking, intelligibly, with an entire fucking cigar butt in his mouth basically...

Who writes this shit...

Seriously, go put a 380 acp cartridge in your mouth and try to talk intelligibly. That's basically what we are talking about regarding size, and even proximate shape, ironically.

People can't even talk intelligibly with a cotton ball in their mouth, but this guy has an ampule the size and shape of a 380 acp in there and everybody is just, yup, he's so smooth and articulate, he has to have an ace up his, blanket I guess? Time to go stick my finger in his mouth...