Why does SanityCheck evade the Physical Evidence Question?

[Wahrheitssucher]

SUMMARY

Yeees, that's what those points were, summaries of points made over and over (with more elaboration) in the preceding 14 pages of the thread.

Maybe elaborations. But as far as I observed, no evidence or references supporting the claims.
E.g. this one here. Have you supported this claim with a reference to evidence?

SC: “3. The core revisionist argument that cremating a corpse on an open air pyre requires substantial quantities of wood (300 now 400kg of wood/corpse) is already refuted by documented cases of much lower fuel ratios for comparable incinerations of animal carcasses.

viewtopic.php?p=22898#p22898

[SanityCheck]

Going off congressional testimony and the refugee files. You know the ones.

If I recall correctly, the cope is to say 'well, they lied to congress to own papa Joe un the CCCP'.

Need something more specific than that, even if I'm not all 'give me the link or else', like some people around here. But if you've posted about this elsewhere, then yeah, link.

'Congressional testimony' when?

This would be in the category of distant reporting which was prone to overestimation; until the collapse of communism, the argument from Polish exiles was that 1 million had been deported in 1940-41, which turned out to be a considerable exaggeration. Soviet documentation indicated 315,000 were deported, of all nationalities
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-6.html
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-5.html (list of transports)

There were some labour deployments away from the newly annexed territories, more fugitives in 1941, and vanishingly few formal evacuations because this was a warzone in June/July 1941. One can add, the murder of Polish Jewish officers (doctors etc) in the Katyn complex.

The Wilno region is on top; this was a route for escape out of Europe entirely for a brief window in 1940, but that then closed with Soviet annexation. There was a republic-wide population registration in January 1941, producing data for the Jews of Vilnius, before the 1941 deportations from Lithuania, which affected Jews somewhat above average, but were still limited in comparison to the total population. Vilnius fell on 24 June 1941; there were fugitives but they did not get much farther than other parts of eastern Poland before being overrun by the front, the proportion of successful escapes from Lithuania as a whole was low, whereas this grew for Latvia (also overrun quickly) and became the majority for Estonia.

[SanityCheck]

SUMMARY

Yeees, that's what those points were, summaries of points made over and over (with more elaboration) in the preceding 14 pages of the thread.

Maybe elaborations. But as far as I observed, no evidence or references supporting the claims.
E.g. this one here. Have you supported this claim with a reference to evidence?

SC: “3. The core revisionist argument that cremating a corpse on an open air pyre requires substantial quantities of wood (300 now 400kg of wood/corpse) is already refuted by documented cases of much lower fuel ratios for comparable incinerations of animal carcasses.

viewtopic.php?p=22898#p22898

See Roberto's chapter on mass cremation in the HC white paper. The Lothes/Profe experiments in the 1900s produced much lower wood-to-flesh ratios than the 300-400kg/corpse claim from revisionists. There have been others with lower ratios as well, as noted in that chapter.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Yeees, that's what those points were, summaries of points made over and over (with more elaboration) in the preceding 14 pages of the thread.

Maybe elaborations. But as far as I observed, no evidence or references supporting the claims.
E.g. this one here. Have you supported this claim with a reference to evidence?

SC: “3. The core revisionist argument that cremating a corpse on an open air pyre requires substantial quantities of wood (300 now 400kg of wood/corpse) is already refuted by documented cases of much lower fuel ratios for comparable incinerations of animal carcasses.

viewtopic.php?p=22898#p22898

See Roberto's chapter on mass cremation in the HC white paper. The Lothes/Profe experiments in the 1900s produced much lower wood-to-flesh ratios than the 300-400kg/corpse claim from revisionists. There have been others with lower ratios as well, as noted in that chapter.

Pathetic response! Another weak avoidance.

Give me a precise reference from an authoritative, verifiable, credible source.

You surely wouldn’t accept this type of vague reference from a student’s paper, would you?

I believe this is wrong.
The research I made a decade ago on cremations of animal corpses during containment of epidemics confirmed the viewpoint that holyH claims of open-air cremations reducing corpses to ash are false.

This is another example where the empirical evidence actually REFUTES your belief-system.
Which presumably explains why you can not provide a credible, authoritative, independent reference. Roberto Muhlenkamp was a holyH believer trying to buttress a discredited but cherished belief system.
So…
Another FAIL

[Stubble]

Going off congressional testimony and the refugee files. You know the ones.

If I recall correctly, the cope is to say 'well, they lied to congress to own papa Joe un the CCCP'.

Need something more specific than that, even if I'm not all 'give me the link or else', like some people around here. But if you've posted about this elsewhere, then yeah, link.

'Congressional testimony' when?

This would be in the category of distant reporting which was prone to overestimation; until the collapse of communism, the argument from Polish exiles was that 1 million had been deported in 1940-41, which turned out to be a considerable exaggeration. Soviet documentation indicated 315,000 were deported, of all nationalities
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-6.html
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-5.html (list of transports)

There were some labour deployments away from the newly annexed territories, more fugitives in 1941, and vanishingly few formal evacuations because this was a warzone in June/July 1941. One can add, the murder of Polish Jewish officers (doctors etc) in the Katyn complex.

The Wilno region is on top; this was a route for escape out of Europe entirely for a brief window in 1940, but that then closed with Soviet annexation. There was a republic-wide population registration in January 1941, producing data for the Jews of Vilnius, before the 1941 deportations from Lithuania, which affected Jews somewhat above average, but were still limited in comparison to the total population. Vilnius fell on 24 June 1941; there were fugitives but they did not get much farther than other parts of eastern Poland before being overrun by the front, the proportion of successful escapes from Lithuania as a whole was low, whereas this grew for Latvia (also overrun quickly) and became the majority for Estonia.

They aren't 'handy' but I'll go dig for the congressional testimony and in the refugee files and bring them to you.

I'm surprised you aren't already aware of these.

There were people taking relief packages to the jews in the gulag. That's in the Refugee Files.

The congressional testimony was almost immediately post war.

I have trouble believing the aid agency delivering packages to gulaged jews didn't know how to count.

Again, I'll grab you source. It's gonna take me a minute.

Also, thank you for the transport records.

Going back over the refugee files reminds me i still need to 'fingerprint' the cohorts and quantify the numbers of jews in various places. For example, in the June 30th 1944 set on reel 45, they talk about 10,000 jews a day being transported from Italy to North Africa. There is also a 'Thank You' from the world jewish congress to the governments of the United States and Great Britain for their efforts to facilitate jews leaving Europe and their investment of 2,000,000 dollars and 1,000,000 pounds in this effort. Polish jews are given citizenship in Vienna to facilitate their transfer to Palestine.

There are jews all over the place, half a million in Rumania, many fled to Turkey from Europe etc.

They are everywhere.

I do still need to find the memo from the jewish aid group that was taking packages to gulaged jews. Sorry, still haven't found it. I've been in 't' series for a while and my notes on the refugee files aren't 'great'. Shifting gears like this on a dime also isn't 'easy' for me. My apologies.

[SanityCheck]

There were people taking relief packages to the jews in the gulag. That's in the Refugee Files.

Meaning these?

M1284 Records of the Department of State Relating to the Problems of Relief and Refugees in Europe Arising from World War II and Its Aftermath, 1938-1949 (70 reels), https://catalog.archives.gov/search?q=M ... aId%3Adesc

OK, gotcha. But do provide a reel and frame when you can. I just searched reel 34 as a spot check for "Soviet" and saw lots of discussion of Polish and Polish Jewish refugees in the Soviet Union, as I'd expect, but no hard numbers for Jews and evident exaggerations for Poles ('two million').

Soviet reports have significantly lower numbers, as outlined here, for Polish Jews who had been removed east or fled east.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... art-6.html

The JDC wasn't delivering parcels to the GULag - deportees were generally categorised as 'special settlers' or exiles to specific regions, mainly Central Asia, whereas the GULag was concentrated in Siberia and the north. GULag statistics don't indicate a huge number of Poles or Jews interned there, certainly not to account for larger numbers. Poles and Polish Jews who were sent to the GULag but were released wrote some of the earliest memoirs of the GULag after 1945.

[Stubble]

I don't recall the frames off the top of my head. I do recall specifically that the numbers provided were from a relief organization that was taking packages to gulaged jews. I'm trying not to get distracted by all of the other stuff in there.

Yes, I will provide reel and frame for it when I find it, of course. There is also the testimony to Congress, which again, to be clear, I am looking for.

I'm out of 't' series stuff and elbow deep in refugee files stuff now. One day I will have to organize my notes. Or learn how to compile and file them.

I didn't exactly think the jews delivering aid to gulaged jews would be super important, it did however stand out to me because it's just so crazy. I mean, I don't know about any other group that got packages in gulags. Along with the numbers they were talking about.

[SanityCheck]

I don't recall the frames off the top of my head. I do recall specifically that the numbers provided was by a relief organization that was taking packages to gulaged jews. I'm trying not to get distracted by all of the other stuff in there.

Yes, I will provide reel and frame for it when I find it, of course. There is also the testimony to Congress, which again, to be clear, I am looking for.

I'm out of 't' series stuff and elbow deep in refugee files stuff now. One day I will have to organize my notes. Or learn how to compile and file them.

I didn't exactly think the jews delivering aid to gulaged jews would be super important, it did however stand out to me because it's just so crazy. I mean, I don't know about any other group that got packages in gulags. Along with the numbers they were talking about.

Still skeptical that you're remembering 'gulag' or Soviet camps correctly.

In any case, this isn't the hidey-hole you're looking for:
In January 1942 there were 23164 Jews in GULAG, in January 1943 - 20230, in January 1944 - 15317, in January 1945 - 14433, in January 1946 - 10839, in January 1947 - 9530 (with the data for 1946 and 1947 being incomplete).
V. N. Zemskov, "GULAG (istoriko-sotsiologicheskiy aspekt)", Sotsiologicheskiye issledovaniya, 1991, no. 6, p. 26, cited in HC white paper (2011), p.275

which would be all Jews in the Soviet Union, not Polish Jews alone.

[Stubble]

In a report from 122844 on reel 53 is says 150,000 Polish jews are in gulag man. There's also some stuff here and there about them letting Polish jews out of gulag back in June if I recall correctly, same year same reel.

Again, I'm not trying to get distracted. I will put my nose back to the stone.

People were taking packages to them and its in the refugee files and the numbers provided are larger than the numbers accepted. I suppose I am left to assume they couldn't count how many people they took packages to.

[SanityCheck]

In a report from 122844 on reel 53 is says 150,000 Polish jews are in gulag man. There's also some stuff here and there about them letting Polish jews out of gulag back in June if I recall correctly, same year same reel.

Again, I'm not trying to get distracted. I will put my nose back to the stone.

People were taking packages to them and its in the refugee files and the numbers provided are larger than the numbers accepted. I suppose I am left to assume they couldn't count how many people they took packages to.

M1284/53, frame 393 or p.393 of PDF is a 28.12.44 report of the War Refugee Board

SITiATION I, POLAND
Ambassador Harriman cabled us information obtained from Polish sources in Moscow concerning the fate of Jewish refugees In Eastern Europe. According-to his information, 20,000 Jews have been found in Polish territory liberated by the Soviets; of these, 2,000 are in the city ofLublin. There are said to be about 150,000 Polish Jews in the Soviet Union. A Central Jewish Committee has been organized in Lublin, and funds have been allotted to it to beused for the rehabilitation ofJevs in the liberated area. Theprojects to whienhthesefunds will be ao-lied include the establishment of mess halls, schools, children's homes, hospitals, communal Kitchens, etc.

So this refers to Polish Jews in the USSR as a whole, a number which would be under conventional understanding for this time, given how many were repatriated in 1945, and not to Polish Jews in Soviet camps on their own.

Frame 434 has a source quoted specifying 250,000 Polish Jews in the USSR, again not especially off.

Frame 318 does mention 150,000 Jews in camps, but there is a conspicuous lack of punctuation to this telegram style wording, the "special concentration and labour camps" would be the German KZs here, not yet liberated. Certainly not Soviet camps. This is from December 26, 1944, so a few weeks before the Vistula-Oder offensive, thus the next frame talks about Plaszow, Skarzysko-Kamienna, Pionki etc which had yet to be liberated but which were now mostly evacuated, unbeknownst to the reporter, as well as Budzyn, which had been liberated in the summer (after its Jewish workers were evacuated westwards).

Of the three and one half million Jews who lived in Poland before the war and of the millions of Jews ofall partsofEurope who wdre deported by the Nazis to Poland only avery small number survived the terror and extermination unleashed against them by the Nazi hangmen according totrustworthy sources from thirty to forty thousand Jews continue to live in the regions ofPoland recently liberated by the Soviet armies in Nazi occupied Poland there are about one hundred fifty thousand Jews interned inspecial concentra-tion and labor camps. The remenants of our great and oldpeople, Fare hourly in imminent danger of death.

This from keyword-searching the PDF for 'Soviet', rather quickly.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/301649232

[Stubble]

I'm trying to stay focused here. Apologies that my notes are sloppy. I'm pretty sure I was referring to the 'Report of the War Refugee Board' on p393.

Again, I need to get back into these files and quantify them and 'fingerprint' cohorts.

I'm still looking for the package thing.

(For the record, I have to do this 'the slow way' because I can't find a search tool on the NARA page and I am retooling my desktop after the debacles with my OCR and Translation software. I have to do the 't' series stuff 'the slow way' too, which turns my brains into tapioca after a few hours)

[SanityCheck]

I'm trying to stay focused here. Apologies that my notes are sloppy. I'm pretty sure I was referring to the 'Report of the War Refugee Board' on p393.

Again, I need to get back into these files and quantify them and 'fingerprint' cohorts.

I'm still looking for the package thing.

(For the record, I have to do this 'the slow way' because I can't find a search tool on the NARA page and I am retooling my desktop after the debacles with my OCR and Translation software. I have to do the 't' series stuff 'the slow way' too, which turns my brains into tapioca after a few hours)

If the reels are PDFs, download them, the PDFs are then usually searchable, and copiable, so also translatable if you need this.

If a series is pooled under one sub-category then you can search for keywords inside the series, and clicking directly on the link highlights the frames where the word appears. Opening the result in a new tab erases this pop up window.

This may not work for some older scans, but generally does.

It won't easily work for the M1284 series because this is submerged within RG 59, 'central decimal files', but you can at least download this. It works for many other series, e.g. T175 SS records.

[Callafangers]

Let me try to boil down the issues to a few numbered points, without the aid of AI:

Lol, just imagine you using AI. Your 5,000-word essays responding to simple questions would inflate further to 15,000 or beyond. We'd all be in trouble here.

In truth, I use AI only as a counter to situations where you evade with massive word salads, hence to refocus the conversation in areas you have deliberately avoided or evaded. It's going well so far.

1. Revisionism, including Mattogno, has yet to respond to/comment on a great deal of historical and archaeological work on the AR camps (and other Holocaust sites). Some of this work is due fairly soon, such as Caroline Sturdy Colls' Finding Treblinka.

Ah, so Mattogno has yet to respond to a work that isn't even published yet? Shame on him. Sturdy-Colls' prior efforts (2014-2020) already yielded economic debris and sparse remains -- corroborating revisionism's sparsity prediction while falsifying extermination-scale traces (no mega-graves/pyres matching Hoefle). Her "upcoming" book changes nothing.

2. A great deal more information is available on the deportation ends and circumstances of transports... Fully researching this will take time, so requests for quantification of what will still be estimates won't be replied to for the foreseeable future.

This has nothing to do with my challenges. You vaguely hint at Jews offboarding before AR camps (which means they were counted in Hoefle/Korherr but survived transit), yet digs yield null results for your needed scale. "Further research will take time" = it doesn't support you now.

3. The core revisionist argument that cremating a corpse on an open air pyre requires substantial quantities of wood (300 now 400kg of wood/corpse) is already refuted by documented cases of much lower fuel ratios for comparable incinerations of animal carcasses.

Flat-out false. The authoritative peer-reviewed study is Yermán et al. (2018): Experimental Study on the Fuel Requirements for the Thermal Degradation of Bodies by Means of Open-Pyre Cremation (https://codoh.com/library/document/expe ... cremation/). Rudolf discusses it here (2024): Open-Air Pyre Cremations Revisited (https://codoh.com/library/document/open ... revisited/). Aligns with Hindu pyres (~500-700kg/corpse, dry wood). Your "refutations" ignore this data.

4. The condition of the AR camp sites... found uncremated corpse layers in wax fat transformation at the bottom of many graves (10 of 33). Therefore human remains were buried at these camps and also cremated at them. The presence of unburned remains at these sites indicate also that cremation was less than total.

Nobody disputes some cremations/burials (ghetto/train disease corpses, sanitation/economic ops at remote sites). Quantity matters -- your narrative demands city-scale traces, but Lukaszewicz/Kola/Mazurek/Sturdy-Colls yield sparsity/economic debris. "Less than total" concedes the physical mismatch.

5. The records of the AR camps were destroyed... Eyewitness descriptions do not provide detailed quantities for fuel, either, and this is quite normal...

"Dog ate my homework." Zero evidence for unprecedented scale (280M+ kg wood at Treblinka alone). Contemporary reports? Hearsay. Normal for what -- your fantasy?

6. Therefore, any attempt to quantify is speculative...

Your entire position, then.

7. This leads to the chief problem... without having any direct evidence to back up and quantify their 'correction'.

Occam's razor: victors concealed demographics invalidating propaganda (feasible); physical traces (not). AR digs corroborate revisionism first -- this nullifies extermination-scale claims before "where 100% went" (transit/labor/disease fits).

8. The generalised 300-400kg/corpse claim... aren't even vaguely explained.

Aktion 1005 is Soviet hearsay (no explicit/contemporary documents, improbable logistics, zero unearthed graves at scale at German sites), so no surprise you rely on it so heavily. Your "networks" of this kind bloat unproven claims.

9. Revisionist claims continue to fail corroboration... Revisionism 'knows' only that this "didn't happen", but cannot clinch the case with evidence pointing to another historical reconstruction.

Physical aspects nullify extermination first. "Zapping" aligns with Soviet cover-up. You claim "mainstream knows cremation... where large numbers disappeared" -- yet earlier concede most weren't even there (en route/escapes). Which is it?

Still Unchallenged (Since OP -- Your Evasion Confirmed):

• FeCN/Prussian Blue (Birkenau): Rudolf modeling predicts stable FeCN like delousing chambers; Markiewicz unbound-HCN volatile (your concession).
• Birkenau Capacity/Maintenance: No refractory records/air-photo pyres for 1.1M.
• Overlapping Math: ~10-15% max reduction (lean ~40k kcal avail., 54% efficiency vs. 200-330k demand).
• Sobibor Graves: Mazurek empties Kola's "dense" 1/2/7; max ~2.7k-17k.
• AR Fuel Scale: Treblinka 280M+ kg unprecedented; no supply/smoke witnesses.
• Falsifiability: Monuments block digs (economic ops found, not mass graves).

Assignment: Quantify revised tolls/sites (Treblinka/Belzec wood/process/graves), or name post-Muehlenkamp scholar who has. Child skew (~12%, pre-factored)/"Z%" insufficient -- show calculations.

Since your evasion remains ongoing, your physical evidence position remains lost. Revisionism's sparsity is hereby corroborated; yours is falsified.

Again: your archaeology department involvement is shocking -- you evade precision while claiming expertise. Tsk tsk.

[Stubble]

I've downloaded the entire set and have them on an external. My copy of Adobe tells me that it can't search them because they are image files. I've tried to search them natively on the NARA page because you had mentioned their OCR is good. When I search on NARA, it doesn't search the set, it searches everything, which is super annoying, but, might be a browser issue because I'm assuming there is another search bar some place I don't see.

With 't' series it's worse. They are image files as well, and so step one is OCR. Then translation. I get information out, but, fidelity to original is a problem. I also am transitioning back to Linux. I'm so very, very done with windows and I don't care if no one else can use the desktop anymore. They can use tablets or something. No more windows.

None of this is in any way related to physical evidence however, and thus I must again apologize to Fangers for my derailment of his thread.

I need to start a demography thread, but, I'm not there. I'm still in phase 1.

[SanityCheck]

I've downloaded the entire set and have them on an external. My copy of Adobe tells me that it can't search them because they are image files.

Maybe update Acrobat? My copy is searching them fine.