On challenges to produce contrary ("revisionist") witnesses

[Wahrheitssucher]

Seems to me this is all about twisting the words and asking us to prove a negative.
It is not for us to prove something didn't happen. It is for the proponents of such claims about the holocaust to prove it did happen. Thus far they haven't done so.

No, everyone making a claim has to substantiate it.

FALSE argument! So yet another bogus response.
Here’s why:
- Revisionists on the whole are NOT making a claim.
- they are in general pointing out the flaws in the holyH mass-gassing claim.

So it definitely is holyH promoters who have to prove their mass-gassing claims.
Doubters of their claims DO NOT have to provide an alternative explanation before the flaws in the compulsory, legally-enforced and protected, racist (anti-German) atrocity propaganda is discarded into the dust-bin of false histories.
Borjastick is totally correct.
This is a classic, dishonest, rather desperate, HolyH debating tactic. One that has been rebutted endlessly, but to no avail.

Summary:
A.) The burden of proof is on the one making a claim (not the ones who doubt it).
B.). Extraordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof (evidence).

You aren't being asked to prove a negative, you're being asked to provide some evidence for the positive claims that revisionism has demonstrably made (transit camps, resettlement).

Wrong! Actual revisionism is NOT a church. It is a process.

Unlike holyH belief, there is no defined ‘revisionist’ belief-system.
So you are engaging in ignorant or dishonest projection.

E.g. I myself can fairly be regarded as an active and vocal ‘revisionist’. I have NOT EVER “claimed” all the alleged missing jooze were resettled via transit camps.

…the demonstrable revisionist positive claims…[snip]…

Same fake argument. See above.

Trying to wiggle out of this by resorting to deduction doesn't solve the problem of needing inductive, empirical evidence.

Wow! This is such a slimy reversal of the burden of proof, Nick.
I assume it is because you know the holyH mass-gassing mythology has been destroyed on the basis of the empirical evidence conclusively refuting it. Therefore it is you are deceitfully trying to switch this around.

[borjastick]

Slippery and wiggly was the worm...

My middle son was the university of Exeter but thankfully he didn't have to deal with this fool. He also got out of there without becoming a lying toady woke libtard.

[SanityCheck]

Therefore it is you are deceitfully trying to switch this around.

There's no switch. Butz, Mattogno, Graf and many other revisionist authors have asserted that the AR camps, Auschwitz etc were transit camps and that Jews passed through them to the occupied Soviet territories.

This claim hasn't withstood scrutiny hitherto. It could be substantiated if revisionists located convincing evidence to support it. Such evidence could well include 'contrary witnesses' observing Jews deported to Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc, who turned up elsewhere. But currently, there aren't any.

Anyone making a claim has a burden of proof; your mistake is thinking you're not making a claim, or that playing defense lawyer absolves you from having a burden of proof. This is not so.

Thus, currently revisionists can console themselves by affirming their incredulity and rejection of the conventional account, but they have completely failed to substantiate what happened instead, which means in effect that the fate of most of 2.6 million deported Jews (just focusing on the extermination camps) is unsolved.

You've zapped the deportees from the historical record just the same as the conventional explanation has.

As soon as you start conjecturing or sketching out what might have happened, then you have a burden of proof. If you evade thinking about what might have happened, then you've still zapped the deportees from the historical record.

[SanityCheck]

Slippery and wiggly was the worm...

My middle son was the university of Exeter but thankfully he didn't have to deal with this fool. He also got out of there without becoming a lying toady woke libtard.

So foolish you're unable to reply coherently to my argument, and instead resort to childish insults.

For the record, I am completely alienated from every single party on the British political spectrum, and that includes from the Greens, LibDems and Labour precisely because of 'woke', which I reject.

[HansHill]

.

Misses the point and unresponsive to the argument.

Also, why are we artificially distinguishing between “early” and “late” exaggerations? Your own example of an “early” exaggeration, the Jewish Soap myth, persisted to the end of the war, and indeed post-war it was proudly presented at Nuremberg in the flesh (fat?)

The point remains that all that was required for the most unhinged claims to collapse was for, ya know, to critically analyse them and their viability. Dachau gassings spring to mind here.

Show up
Critically analyse
Claims evaporate

Fancy that.

To repeat the argument; the 40 beheaded babies did not require a contrivance of “replacement historiography to fill in the gaps otherwise the claims stand”. The claims collapsing by themselves under scrutiny is sufficient.

**edit**

Apologies to the forum I have completely botched the formatting of this reply. I will try fix it once I have access to desktop.

[HansHill]

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Fully agreed. Chazan, Phlishko and Mueller alone describe a process so inoperable and so damaging to the contrived narrative, that Van Pelt’s herculean efforts were barely enough to salvage credibility.

To underscore it, Van Pelt deviates so much from the people who were there, that they effectively describe a different process.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Therefore it is you are deceitfully trying to switch this around.

Anyone making a claim has a burden of proof;

I’ve already replied to this…
Revision is a process not a fixed position. There is no fixed ‘revisionist’ position that is making a sacrosanct claim. This is YOUR mistake.

…your mistake is thinking you're not making a claim…

I’m not.
I explained that to you also.

[…your mistake is thinking] that playing defence lawyer absolves you from having a burden of proof. This is not so.

It is so.
E.g. If you are accused of a murder that you didn’t commit then a cast-iron alibi proving you were in another country at the time of the murder proves you are innocent. You do NOT have to find who actually did the murder to be declared innocent.

[Archie]

Barely any of the points in the OP have been addressed.

Let me restart with the most basic point: In the postwar period, there were multiple governments (plus Jewish groups) engaged in producing witnesses to gassings and other atrocities. There was never any counter-effort to search for contrary witnesses. Given this context, witness tallies mean absolutely nothing.

The Soviet Katyn investigation boasted of "over 100 eyewitnesses," and unsurprisingly these witnesses were unanimous in affirming German guilt.

[Stubble]

Archie, it isn't just that they weren't sought out. I've read that counter testimony was actually suppressed and expressed interest in reviewing the testimony that was thrown out at Nuremberg.

I'll see if I can grab the thread and link it.

[Archie]

Archie, it isn't just that they weren't sought out. I've read that counter testimony was actually suppressed and expressed interest in reviewing the testimony that was thrown out at Nuremberg.

I'll see if I can grab the thread and link it.

Even if we grant for sake of argument that the witnesses run 100/0 against us (we've already produced Himmler and other counterexamples to disprove that claim), witness tallying is still an invalid heuristic in situations where the judicial context all but guaranteed that outcome.

[Stubble]

Fair, but, I'd be remissed not to mention the suppression of testimony.

Then there are the problems with how the testimony that was submitted was collected.

Also, often times in the testimonies you will find an absurdity that seems left intentionally as a 'message in a bottle'. A stack of clothes as tall as the statue of liberty? Impossible densities in the homicidal gas chambers? Other bits that break physical law.

What we should have in abundance is exactly what is missing. The strong physical evidence. Instead we are given fables and a chart that says 'it was this many'.

[Archie]

'Contrary' witnesses would logically be found well away from the extermination camps, whether the inner areas or the full camps or complexes.

Let me make a point here that I did not make in the OP but which I think is quite important. All failed gas chamber witnesses are contrary witnesses. Assuming they were really there.

Abraham Kzrepicki (e.g.) - In his account, he describes the interior tiles of the gas chamber. If he was there and he saw that interior, then his failure to describe everything else even remotely correctly cannot be satisfactorily explained.

-X was happening
-Witness was there while X was happening
-It is not possible for someone who was there to have failed to observe X
-Yet witness fails to recount X to any reasonable degree of accuracy

The only potential explanations are:
1) The witness was not actually there
2) The witness was there but gave an incompetent description (this will naturally lead into a debate over what are reasonable vs unreasonable errors)
3) The witness was there but much of their story is fantasy

Holocaust defenders must attempt to rehabilitate their witnesses by arguing case 2. A few especially bad witnesses could perhaps be sacrificed as case 1 but that option must be used sparingly. Holocaust defenders can never entertain case 3 as a possibility because if the witness was there and saw true horrors that actually occurred, there would be no reason to resort to fantasy.

All case 3 witnesses are contrary witnesses.

Prior discussion here:
viewtopic.php?t=116