Kula vs Tauber on "Kula columns"

[HansHill]

It more so means that you are deviating from what the actual people said who gave eyewitness testimony. You say you will defer to another witness who explains how the basket thing worked, but that by definition means you are discarding THESE people:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/techn ... n-devices/

Why specifically are you not deferring to them?

[bombsaway]

It more so means that you are deviating from what the actual people said who gave eyewitness testimony. You say you will defer to another witness who explains how the basket thing worked, but that by definition means you are discarding THESE people:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/techn ... n-devices/

Why specifically are you not deferring to them?

quote testimony I'm contradicting. if so, I'll probably retract.

[HansHill]

I didn't say you are contradicting anybody - i said you are discarding peoples' testimony who were there and I'm asking why.

The link gives ~20 people who describe various non-basket introduction mechanisms. They were there and saw something else. Why are you discarding their testimony in favor of the basket thing?

[bombsaway]

Provide actual testimony for me to look at, then I can answer you.

[HansHill]

Stop screwing around Sideshow Bombsaway, I've linked you to the online Holocaust Encyclopedia*. If you're too lazy to read eyewitness testimony that's fine, but stop demanding it on a silver platter. This is your story to defend, so defend it.

*The mods have previously indicated that direct links to the encyclopedia are sufficient citation, so I will continue to do so unless otherwise advised.

[bombsaway]

I would contend that on that site the witness testimonies are overwhelmingly misinterpreted in a deluded attempt to find "contradictions". Most likely any witness testimonies that do contradict are based on second hand reports, eg someone hearing about gas coming out of showerheads, rather than experiencing it first hand.

I've stated before that I think that site is a joke and I only care about testimony. If the testimony is so readily available (I looked through a few links and it's not there) then post here, or direct me to it in some other way. I'm not going to waste my time poring through analysis that is totally non credible for me, especially when you consistently refuse to answer any questions I pose to you.

[HansHill]

This new gambit is insufferable.

Bombsaway:

> I propose a novel basket mechanism that is undefined by any eyewitness
> I would defer to any eyewitness who describes a satisfactory basket mechanism

Hans:

> Cool.
> Why exactly would you defer to a hypothetical eyewitness over any extant eyewitness who describe something else?

Bombsaway:

???

[Archie]

It more so means that you are deviating from what the actual people said who gave eyewitness testimony. You say you will defer to another witness who explains how the basket thing worked, but that by definition means you are discarding THESE people:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/techn ... n-devices/

Why specifically are you not deferring to them?

I suspect the reason he is deviating from the witnesses in favor of choose-your-own-adventure is that he has realized the testimonial descriptions, as stated, will present technical difficulties. Earlier in the thread I mentioned some problems that would arise with keeping the pellets in the can the whole time.

Regarding the removable can, the problem I see with that scenario is that if the pellets are clumped together in the can, that would be the exact opposite of standard procedure with Zyklon B which was to distribute the pellets uniformly throughout the room. If the pellets are in a can, the gas would evaporate much more slowly and not evenly. This would be true in a column as well, but it would be even worse in a can. And it would be a tremendous waste of Zyklon.

viewtopic.php?p=23167&#p23167

Bombsaway's approach seems to be to pick and choose elements from the testimonies buffet style and change as needed to make it more technically plausible. In bombsaway's latest version (he should really consider publishing it since he is on the cutting edge of Holocaust scholarship here), he's got the pellets more spread out during the gassings and then they magically collect in the can at the end.

All of this would be a lot easier for them if they didn't have worry about trying to minimize the exposure time. Since those sneaky Germans were deliberately trying to prevent Prussian blue formation.

[bombsaway]

HansHill: This is an example of a testimony that contradicts what you're saying. It's on this site.

BA: I just have to believe this secondary source? Can you provide me with a primary source?

HansHill: No. You just have to trust the secondary source, exactly as I have done.

BA: This runs counter to basic principles of historiography.

HansHill: This is an example of a testimony that contradicts what you're saying. It's on this site.

[bombsaway]

I haven't deviated from any testimony that I am aware of. The worst you can say about me is that some testimony that I'm unfamiliar with does specify a different mechanism than the one I described.

[Wahrheitssucher]

[1] …I've stated before that I think that site is a joke and I only care about testimony.

[2.]…I'm not going to waste my time poring through analysis that is totally non credible for me,

[3]. especially when you consistently refuse to answer any questions I pose to you.

3. People have been “consistently” bending over backwards to answer this person’s avoidance questions.

2. This person is not here to sincerely read and discuss critical “analysis” of the Kula columns or of any of the other many flawed aspects of the holyH mythology. They are here to buttress a quasi-religious belief system with dishonest avoidance and insults.

1. This person is the third most prolific poster here at CODOH.
So not the activity of someone who genuinely thinks we are “insane”, etc.

[Archie]

I think the pellets were distributed to the sides of the wire mesh collumn, then through some mechanism (which I don't think any witness described) after gassing was concluded, slots were opened and the pellets were allowed to fall into the basket. Maybe the basket gets lowered opening flaps automatically once it is in place and the pellets fall in.

I'm not seeing how these "slots" would be controlled or who is supposed to have built all of this if not Kula.

If the pellets are "distributed to the sides" of the column, if the clearance between layers is generous, then the pellets would fall to the bottom. If the clearance is tight, the pellets would get stuck on the sides in between layers. In moist conditions the pellets would get wet and clump together. Good luck channeling them through "slots" into a basket or can or collection cup or anything else. Not happening.

Kula initially stated that the Zyklon B gypsum granules were poured
into the narrow space of 2.5 cm between the inner column’s sheet metal core
and its outer screen. Already pouring the pellets into that narrow space could
have led to clogging anywhere along the height of the column. Even if that did
not happen, it is safe to say that the gypsum pellets would have gotten very
wet. There are two reasons for this.
First because the room it was inserted into is said to have been filled with
people. They would have produced an atmosphere saturated with water. This
humidity would have condensed on anything colder than the air those people
exhaled. In addition to this, in the case under investigation here, hydrogen
cyanide would have evaporated vigorously from the carrier, withdrawing con
siderable amounts of energy from it, hence cooling it down. This would have
led to the condensation of large quantities of air humidity onto the pellets.
Wet gypsum tends to stick and clump together. Getting this wet gypsum,
which would have stuck to the screen while still releasing poisonous hydrogen
cyanide, out of the inner column would have been rather difficult. Pounding
the screen to get the pellets out would quickly have ruined that flimsy inner
column. In brief, it would have been a mess.
The situation gets even worse when we consider Kula’s second description,
where this space has shrunk to a mere 15 mm. It wouldn’t even have been
possible to get the Zyklon-B granules to fall down such a narrow gap without
getting stuck and clogging the whole thing, let alone clean it out afterwards
with moist, clumped-together gypsum sticking to the screen. (HH2, pg. 153)

[Wetzelrad]

I don't for a moment consider that Kula was suggesting the entire 10 foot column was extracted every time gassing was completed.

Really? Those were Kula's exact words, but you won't consider it even for a moment?

Sorry for jumping into the middle of the thread just to pile on, but this is atrocious reasoning. You would never allow a revisionist to assert that there was such a major mistranslation/misspeak without assigning them a mental disorder. Revisionists would do well to remember this reaching interpretation in future discussions.

In addition to other points made in this thread, it's worth adding that the holes study (Keren et al 2004), which came as a response to Van Pelt's report and had his endorsement, also claimed that these mythical objects were large. According to its authors, the blotches seen on the roof in aerial photos may have actually been exactly these removable columns. They described them as "the inner cores of the wire mesh columns", not as cans or anything else. They were big enough to be "propped against" the chimneys, which necessitates something bigger than a mere can. Additionally, the blotches are 3+ meters in size!

Okay, so you are making up your own thing.

Is there a problem with "making up your own thing"?

Oh, good heavens. The Holocaust really is a Choose Your Own Adventure book.

[HansHill]

Sorry for jumping into the middle of the thread just to pile on

Always a pleasure Wetzelrad, welcome to the party!

large.

Correct and agreed. A small can-like can (!) only introduces more problems than it resolves. I mentioned on p2 of this thread that Kula himself explains the “largeness” of column 3 assists in evaporation and dispersal. A can jeopardises this.

[bombsaway]

1. This person is the third most prolific poster here at CODOH.
So not the activity of someone who genuinely thinks we are “insane”, etc.

On the contrary, talking to people who fit this descriptor (which is somewhat hyperbolic, not meant to suggest clinical insanity, rather deeply unreasonable beliefs) makes me much more interested.

That said my posts tend to be very short. I would be surprised if by word count I rank nearly so high.

If the pellets are "distributed to the sides" of the column, if the clearance between layers is generous, then the pellets would fall to the bottom. If the clearance is tight, the pellets would get stuck on the sides in between layers. In moist conditions the pellets would get wet and clump together. Good luck channeling them through "slots" into a basket or can or collection cup or anything else. Not happening.

Lol are you arguing that the Germans couldn't figure out how to get tiny pellets to fall into a container? the container would be lower than where the pellets fell, and would fall further when slots were opened, relying on the mysterious force known as GRAVITY. the third column would just have to have sloped sides.

The better arguments I think you have against this is other witness specifying different collection mechanism (which has not been produced), or no witness specifying such a mechanism. Quite obviously this latter argument is weak: just because witnesses or documents don't describe something doesn't mean it couldn't have happened right? Like (cough cough) resettlement of a small country's worth of Jews in the USSR?

The difference between orthodoxy and revisionism is the gaps are in comparison microscopic for orthodoxy - eg a mechanism used for killing is not described in full, whereas your side offers no evidence of any aspect of a mass event, probably the largest population transfer in history. The insanity, as I see it, is not the skepticism you have, rather these extreme double standards.