Historians v revisionists, methodology.

[Nessie]

No, I want to read the statement. I went looking for it, as you failed to provide a link and found PS-1553 is a document about the delivery of Zyklon B, it is not Gerstein's statement.

The Gerstein statement was submitted as PS-1553 and was cited in court.

According to the link I provided, his statement was submitted along with PS-1553.

A long extract from the statement was published on page 865.

Can you link to it?

There was no discussion about all the errors in the statement. They didn't notice. All the careful fact-checking and quality control that you claim they always do didn't happen.

I am not going to believe that claim until you provide links and evidence. You would not even know what to look for.

This same negligence (even unscrupulousness) is evident in the early treatment of Gerstein in the Holocaust literature. French historian Leon Poliakov in his 1951 booked cited Gerstein approvingly as a major witness.



He then dedicates to a long quote of the statement. We know Poliakov actually did notice some errors in the statement because he makes undisclosed changes to the statement without any discussion or explanation. For example Gerstein's description has 700-800 people in a gas chamber of only 25 sq meters. Poliakov arbitrarily increases the room to 93 sq meters without comment, i.e., he falsifies the text to hide Gerstein's error from the reader.

Critical comments about Gerstein from the orthodox side generally came very late and only AFTER revisionists had already debunked him.

You criticise others, without providing evidence, such as where does Poliakov increase the size of the chamber? You then, crucially, without evidence, claim revisionists have debunked him. How have you done that? Show your methodology.

You need to learn how to do basic research. How are you not familiar with the Gerstein statement after 15 years of doing this?

Butz reproduces it here:
https://www.unz.com/book/arthur_r_butz_ ... _79_1:1-31

Here is the Poliakov book I cited. Check it. He says 93 square meters.
https://archive.org/details/harvestofhatenaz00poli

See Roques for a detailed discussion of the textual variations, including Poliakov's inaccuracies.
https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/the ... -gerstein/

Looks like you need reminding of the forum rule "Sourcing: Formal citations are not required, but, as a basic courtesy, you are encouraged to put in some effort to source your posts, and you should be ready to supply references upon request." If you ask me about assessment of a statement, why not just link to it?

Then, when you provide links, why are you being so vague? Where is it that Poliakov "arbitrarily increases the room to 93 sq meters without comment"? Why do you dodge quoting him?

Then there is the issue of you have still not provided a concise description of how you assess witnesses. I have provided you with one, including examples. Historians find that he is corroborated on his main claims, but he is poor on and unreliable in the details. The level of corroboration proves he is being truthful about the main claims he makes, but he cannot be relied upon to provide accurate descriptions.

[Nessie]

Gerstein's version of events has been questioned and subjected to extensive checking and verification.

I have provided you with links and quotes by historians as they have checked and verified his claims. On the main events, he is found to be corroborated. On the details of his descriptions, he is found to be unreliable.

[Wetzelrad]

The German historian Hans Rothfels writes about Gerstein;

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/846188/pdf

[...]

Rothfels finds that Gerstein is not that credible, he makes mistakes, makes claims that are not possible but his core claims are corroborated.

This was published in 2016. That's 55 years after the revisionist historian Paul Rassinier first began criticizing Gerstein. It's 71 years after Nuremberg. It shouldn't take half a century to correct the record. Can you not see that this a perfect example of the totally negligent and unscrupulous "methodology" of Holocaust historians? They have no leg to stand on.

He then applies the test of corroboration and finds that the primary claims about gassing are verified by other evidence.

Where are gas chambers corroborated? Rothfels cites a post-war report claiming 600,000 dead there, but that itself is a guesstimate, not evidence. He also cites hearsay from Reder and Morgen which he misleadingly claims are "Wirth's own words". He also cites Von Otter's proven lies about what Gerstein told him. None of this has any substance. Where is the corroboration?

It's absurd that some Holocaust historians continue to defend Gerstein even as they are now forced to admit to all his errors and "claims that are not possible".

[Archie]

The German historian Hans Rothfels writes about Gerstein;

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/846188/pdf

[...]

Rothfels finds that Gerstein is not that credible, he makes mistakes, makes claims that are not possible but his core claims are corroborated.

This was published in 2016. That's 55 years after the revisionist historian Paul Rassinier first began criticizing Gerstein. It's 71 years after Nuremberg. It shouldn't take half a century to correct the record. Can you not see that this a perfect example of the totally negligent and unscrupulous "methodology" of Holocaust historians? They have no leg to stand on.

He then applies the test of corroboration and finds that the primary claims about gassing are verified by other evidence.

Where are gas chambers corroborated? Rothfels cites a post-war report claiming 600,000 dead there, but that itself is a guesstimate, not evidence. He also cites hearsay from Reder and Morgen which he misleadingly claims are "Wirth's own words". He also cites Von Otter's proven lies about what Gerstein told him. None of this has any substance. Where is the corroboration?

It's absurd that some Holocaust historians continue to defend Gerstein even as they are now forced to admit to all his errors and "claims that are not possible".

According to Roques (HH54), Rothfels published a German edition of the statement in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte in 1953. That link appears to be a reprint/translation. It was one of the earlier versions that was published. According to Roques, Rothfels (who appears to have been a serious military historian) was much more competent than Poliakov, but the latter is more reflective of the usual level of rigor in "Holocaust studies."

Wikipedia's summary is actually pretty good in explaining how most historians relied on Gerstein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gers ... 9_analysis

[Archie]

" Was it even logistically possible (200 Ukrainians, approx. 100 chairs,
12-13 lashes)? Is it possible to remember such specifics? It must be clear that not
every word can be taken at face value and that it is entirely possible that there
are mistakes or inaccuracies in terms of the incidentals..."

Nessie is glazing Rothfels for exercising the slightest bit of common sense (not enough) yet he approving quotes a critique that he would call a "logical fallacy" if the same comment were made by a revisionist (since it is casting doubt on a story on logistical grounds).

More from Rothfels,

G. estimates here 25 million (“not only Jews, but also mainly Poles and Czechs”). Although this
must be rejected as an enormous exaggeration, this should not give rise to the sentiment that it
“wasn’t all that bad.” Oddly enough, such voices are filtering over here from Switzerland (see
Basler Nachrichten, 12 June 1946; Der Turmwart, December 1950). According to these sources,
the number of murdered (religious) Jews could “only” have amounted to 1.5 million. From the National Socialist side, however, a figure of 6 million has been admitted (IMT-Document 2738-PS)

Ok, so he was smart enough to notice that 25 million was a ludicrous figure. I mean, I guess that's something, but am I supposed to be impressed by this? And then he immediately ruins it by endorsing the completely ridiculous Hoettl affidavit.

I will add here that Poliakov in his book, he ends the quote just before the 25 million. Poliakov noticed this idiocy as well no doubt, but elected to hide it from his readers.

[Hektor]

Gerstein's version of events has been questioned and subjected to extensive checking and verification.

Wasn't there someone that showed that he and his family would fit into a telephone cell.

[Wetzelrad]

According to Roques (HH54), Rothfels published a German edition of the statement in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte in 1953. That link appears to be a reprint/translation. It was one of the earlier versions that was published. According to Roques, Rothfels (who appears to have been a serious military historian) was much more competent than Poliakov, but the latter is more reflective of the usual level of rigor in "Holocaust studies."

Wikipedia's summary is actually pretty good in explaining how most historians relied on Gerstein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gers ... 9_analysis

Fair enough. So Rothfels at least actually did lay some skepticism on Gerstein before any revisionist hit the scene. A credit to him. I think it might even be fair to give the earliest historians some leeway because they didn't know how everything would unfold. Today, with the amount of impeaching material that has accumulated, it's less excusable.

One thing I'm curious about is how the problem of historians changing Gerstein's "25 square meters" was ultimately resolved. Mattogno wrote here that different historians came up with different falsifications to improve this aspect of Gerstein's testimony. My experience tells me this could be because the historians felt it was a typo, a misinterpretation, or something like that. Did any sensible explanation of that kind ever arise? Did Poliakov ever explain himself? Or did they simply falsify Gerstein's testimony and walk away? Wikipedia handwaves the issue. Perhaps Nessie can explain it.

[Nessie]

The German historian Hans Rothfels writes about Gerstein;

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/846188/pdf

[...]

Rothfels finds that Gerstein is not that credible, he makes mistakes, makes claims that are not possible but his core claims are corroborated.

This was published in 2016. That's 55 years after the revisionist historian Paul Rassinier first began criticizing Gerstein. It's 71 years after Nuremberg. It shouldn't take half a century to correct the record. Can you not see that this a perfect example of the totally negligent and unscrupulous "methodology" of Holocaust historians? They have no leg to stand on.

No, I cannot see how the methodology commonly used, by historians, of corroboration and recognising that witnesses are often poor when it comes to the details, is negligent and unscrupulous. It is the same methodology used by lawyers, the police and journalists. How are they all wrong? Do explain.

He then applies the test of corroboration and finds that the primary claims about gassing are verified by other evidence.

Where are gas chambers corroborated? Rothfels cites a post-war report claiming 600,000 dead there, but that itself is a guesstimate, not evidence. He also cites hearsay from Reder and Morgen which he misleadingly claims are "Wirth's own words". He also cites Von Otter's proven lies about what Gerstein told him. None of this has any substance. Where is the corroboration?

The gas chambers are corroborated by all of the witnesses who worked at the camps Gerstein visited. When Nazi and Jew agree, that is strong corroboration. Their existence is further corroborated by the circumstantial operation of AR and the clearing of ghettos to those camps. The evidence of mass arrivals and no mass departures, the evidence of huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains and the finds of the remains of buildings where the witness said the chambers were located. Then there is an evidenced motive, opportunity and a cover up, from which a criminal act can be deduced.

It's absurd that some Holocaust historians continue to defend Gerstein even as they are now forced to admit to all his errors and "claims that are not possible".

It is absurd you conclude Gerstin lied about the existence of gas chambers, when you cannot evidence he lied. Instead, you ignore the studies of witnesses that explain how they are often unreliable and that is primary claim is corroborated.

You cannot concisely explain your methodology for assessing Gerstein

[Nessie]

" Was it even logistically possible (200 Ukrainians, approx. 100 chairs,
12-13 lashes)? Is it possible to remember such specifics? It must be clear that not
every word can be taken at face value and that it is entirely possible that there
are mistakes or inaccuracies in terms of the incidentals..."

Nessie is glazing Rothfels for exercising the slightest bit of common sense (not enough) yet he approving quotes a critique that he would call a "logical fallacy" if the same comment were made by a revisionist (since it is casting doubt on a story on logistical grounds).

The difference between Rothfels and you, is that whilst you both cast doubt on the claim, Rothfels does not conclude therefore Gerstein lied about that incident, whereas you do. Instead, Rothfels recognises that witnesses make mistakes and can be inaccurate. You complete the fallacy by claiming Gersteins claim is a lie, based only on a description that contains clear errors, using those errors to justify your disbelief.

More from Rothfels,

G. estimates here 25 million (“not only Jews, but also mainly Poles and Czechs”). Although this
must be rejected as an enormous exaggeration, this should not give rise to the sentiment that it
“wasn’t all that bad.” Oddly enough, such voices are filtering over here from Switzerland (see
Basler Nachrichten, 12 June 1946; Der Turmwart, December 1950). According to these sources,
the number of murdered (religious) Jews could “only” have amounted to 1.5 million. From the National Socialist side, however, a figure of 6 million has been admitted (IMT-Document 2738-PS)

Ok, so he was smart enough to notice that 25 million was a ludicrous figure. I mean, I guess that's something, but am I supposed to be impressed by this? And then he immediately ruins it by endorsing the completely ridiculous Hoettl affidavit.

I will add here that Poliakov in his book, he ends the quote just before the 25 million. Poliakov noticed this idiocy as well no doubt, but elected to hide it from his readers.

Rothfels concludes that Gerstein is being truthful about the main event of mass murder, because his claims are corroborated, but he is unreliable on the details, because of clear errors and exaggerations.

You conclude Gerstein is lying about the main event of mass murder, because you do not accept the corroborating evidence and you think his unreliability and lack of credibility is evidence he lied.

Rothfels methodology is more reliable than your methodology, because it is evidence rather than opinion based (using corroboration), it takes into account known issues over memory, recall and exaggerations that do not prove lying, and he is not relying on a logically flawed argument of incredulity about the errors on the details.

I asked you how you would prove Gerstein lied and you could not answer. The answer is that you would gather evidence, such as eyewitnesses who worked at the camps he visited, you state there were no gas chambers. You would survey the area of the camp where the gas chamber was supposed to be and find nothing. You would trace documents that recorded hundreds of thousands of people leaving the camps. You need evidence and you have none.

[Nessie]

According to Roques (HH54), Rothfels published a German edition of the statement in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte in 1953. That link appears to be a reprint/translation. It was one of the earlier versions that was published. According to Roques, Rothfels (who appears to have been a serious military historian) was much more competent than Poliakov, but the latter is more reflective of the usual level of rigor in "Holocaust studies."

Wikipedia's summary is actually pretty good in explaining how most historians relied on Gerstein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gers ... 9_analysis

Fair enough. So Rothfels at least actually did lay some skepticism on Gerstein before any revisionist hit the scene. A credit to him. I think it might even be fair to give the earliest historians some leeway because they didn't know how everything would unfold. Today, with the amount of impeaching material that has accumulated, it's less excusable.

One thing I'm curious about is how the problem of historians changing Gerstein's "25 square meters" was ultimately resolved. Mattogno wrote here that different historians came up with different falsifications to improve this aspect of Gerstein's testimony. My experience tells me this could be because the historians felt it was a typo, a misinterpretation, or something like that. Did any sensible explanation of that kind ever arise? Did Poliakov ever explain himself? Or did they simply falsify Gerstein's testimony and walk away? Wikipedia handwaves the issue. Perhaps Nessie can explain it.

I have already explained the estimations that many witnesses made, that are clearly wrong, with links to studies about estimation. Those studies repeatedly find that many people are poor at estimating size. Gerstein is clearly one of them.

AI Overview
Humans are generally adept at comparing the relative sizes of objects and estimating the size of familiar objects in their immediate environment, but they are relatively poor at providing precise, absolute numerical estimates of size.
Good at Comparison, Poor at Absolute Estimation: People are good at comparing things (e.g., deciding which of two objects is larger) but struggle to accurately state the specific dimensions (e.g., height in inches) of an object.
Relative Accuracy: When directly observing objects, estimations are more accurate than when relying on memory.
Medium-Sized Objects: People are most accurate when estimating the size of medium-sized objects.
Underestimation Bias: There is a common tendency to underestimate the size of large objects, particularly when making estimations without a direct reference point.

I have yet to see evidence Gerstein's claim about a 25m square gas chamber, has been falsified. Where is a link to this quote attributed to Gerstein, that changes his description of 25 m2 to something else? Here are quotes attributed to Gerstein that all say he said 25m2.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/846188/pdf

"The chambers fill up. Pack them full – that’s what Captain Wirth ordered. The people stand on top of each other’s feet. 700–800 over 25 square meters, in 45 cubic meters! The SS pushes them together physically, if it’s even possible"

https://www.unz.com/book/arthur_r_butz_ ... _79_1:1-31

"Within the chambers, the SS press the people closely together, Captain Wirth had ordered: ‘Fill them up full’. Naked men stand on the feet of the others. 700-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic meters! The doors are closed."

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/the ... -gerstein/

"In the chambers, the SS push the men. ‘Fill up well’ the Hauptmann has ordered. The naked men
are standing on the feet of the others, 700-800 to 25 m², to 45 m³! The doors close.”

Anything else is likely paraphrasing on behalf of the author, or, since Gerstein gave more than one statement, a different version of his description, or there are different translations.