What is evidence? [remedial education series]

[Nessie]

Nothing evidentially hinges on the mechanism of the Kula columns.

Your side's explanation for the lack of Prussian blue (as well as the fast pace of cremation) hinges on super fast ventilation of the chamber. And the "Kula columns" are the purported mechanism by which the pellets were removed from the chamber. Otherwise, the pellets would continue releasing gas for hours which would create all sorts of problems. Hence the Kula columns are crucial to your position.

Not being able to explain, to your satisfaction, why there is an apparent lack of PB, how the chamber was ventilated or anything else to do with its functioning, has no evidential value.

The Kula columns are not crucial. Only two chambers are evidenced to have had them, so they were not essential to the gassing process. It would not matter even if we did not know about them at all. Not knowing how something worked, is independent of knowing if it that something existed or not. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of the Kula columns, but it is patchy and incomplete and so we are not sure exactly how they functioned. There are lots of things in history we know happened, but lack details of how they happened.

Your argument that we have to know how it happened, or else we cannot prove it happened, is flawed.

[Keen]

Not being able to explain, to your satisfaction, why there is an apparent lack of PB, how the chamber was ventilated or anything else to do with its functioning, has no evidential value... Your argument that we have to know how it happened, or else we cannot prove it happened, is flawed.

This is the same nonsensical "logic" that the mentally ill HC cult members spew while trying to defend their "magically disappearing jew" theory.

[HansHill]

It would not matter even if we did not know about them at all. Not knowing how something worked, is independent of knowing if it that something existed or not. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of the Kula columns, but it is patchy and incomplete and so we are not sure exactly how they functioned.

Its so perfectly on brand for you to:

i) Not understand something,
ii) Make no attempt to try and understand,
iii) Assert that understanding doesn't actually matter,
iv) Assert that attempting to understand is meaningless, irrelevant and to be avoided,
v) Refuse to apply any degree of critical thinking in your "Nessie" Public Persona,
vi) Post a bunch of incoherent slop about how understanding something while discussing it is unneccessary.

All of these things are your right, by the way. You're perfectly justified in not understanding how anything works or caring why this should matter. But this forum is full of people who do care. So politely shut the hell up about not wanting to understand or care, while the people who do care discuss these topics.

[Nessie]

It would not matter even if we did not know about them at all. Not knowing how something worked, is independent of knowing if it that something existed or not. There is corroborating evidence of the existence of the Kula columns, but it is patchy and incomplete and so we are not sure exactly how they functioned.

Its so perfectly on brand for you to:

i) Not understand something,
ii) Make no attempt to try and understand,
iii) Assert that understanding doesn't actually matter,
iv) Assert that attempting to understand is meaningless, irrelevant and to be avoided,
v) Refuse to apply any degree of critical thinking in your "Nessie" Public Persona,
vi) Post a bunch of incoherent slop about how understanding something while discussing it is unneccessary.

All of these things are your right, by the way. You're perfectly justified in not understanding how anything works or caring why this should matter. But this forum is full of people who do care. So politely shut the hell up about not wanting to understand or care, while the people who do care discuss these topics.

I do understand your argument. You think that because you cannot work out how gassings were possible and how the Kula column could have worked, that is somehow evidence there were no gas chambers or Kula columns.

I understand and care how the Kula columns and gas chambers worked, in the same way I understand how an engine and a car works. I do not have all the details and I cannot explain how they work with precision, but I can understand how they functioned.

You want to keep on discussing the workings of the gas chambers and columns, without bothering to understand the point of your discussion, because you cannot bear facing the futility of what you are doing.

[HansHill]

you cannot bear facing the futility of what you are doing.

[Archie]

Nessie is pretending to believe that the presence/lack of presence of cyanide compounds in the walls of the "gas chambers" has no evidentiary value. GTFO. It is very obviously relevant. And I know that you know that it's relevant. Stop playing dumb. I know are not the sharpest guy, but I do not think you are as thick as you are pretending to be with these comments. If you want to argue that it is not 100% conclusive for whatever reason, go right ahead, but to dismiss it as irrelevant is brazenly dishonest.

[Archie]

Nessie's inability to argue coherently along with his refusal to confront relevant data are why he will likely never be invited back to the real Debate board. He just recycles the same circular assertions over and over without addressing anything of substance.

I will add that as the Debate board has not been busy lately, the bar right now is pretty low, and Nessie still can't meet it. I would rather have the Debate board sit idle until someone smart comes along than to have it larded up with Nessie's lame posts.

As an aside, it's pretty funny that the opposition has complained loudly for years about CODOH's supposed censorship, yet I can tell you the door here has been wide open. They don't come by here because they know it's not going to go well for them.

[Nessie]

Nessie is pretending to believe that the presence/lack of presence of cyanide compounds in the walls of the "gas chambers" has no evidentiary value. GTFO. It is very obviously relevant. And I know that you know that it's relevant. Stop playing dumb. I know are not the sharpest guy, but I do not think you are as thick as you are pretending to be with these comments. If you want to argue that it is not 100% conclusive for whatever reason, go right ahead, but to dismiss it as irrelevant is brazenly dishonest.

That testing has found lower than expected and far lower than found in delousing chamber levels of HCN has evidential value, but it is not as significant as you believe. It certainly is not evidence to prove the Leichenkellers were not used for mass gassings. That is because mass gassing was a different process to delousing or fumigation and we have no comparison data for mass gassing. There is data from buildings used as delousing chambers, or they were subject to fumigation that can be used as comparisons. There is no data from a place that is accepted as used for mass gassings, to act as a comparison.

Revisionists assume residues would be close to that found in the delousing chambers and way above fumigation. But that is not proven and there are reasons why the residue is as it is, such as exposure for minutes rather than hours, swifter ventilation and the effect bodies have on the atmosphere inside the chamber, compared to clothing, or nothing at all. Revisionists chose to reject the explanations, but others find them compelling. Revisionists, unscientifically, do not want to face the prospect that mass gassings result in a lower level of HCN residue than expected and much lower than delousing causes.

There is also the problem of the Nazis destruction of the evidence. Blowing up or demolishing the Kremas makes the gathering of data, such as accurate levels of HCN in the walls. Revisionists have zero experience of crime scene examination, so they will hand wave away that destruction, as if not being able to get inside Krema III, or there being no walls left at Kremas IV and V, is not an issue. The issue is that data on HCN levels is corrupted by the destruction done. What has been found in the ruins in 1994, when Markiewicz et al. ran tests, cannot be assumed to what it was in 1943-4. Revisionists, again unscientifically, want to make definitive conclusions based on unreliable data. They want to claim that lower than expected levels means mass gassing cannot have happened.

There is far more reliable way to determine if the Leichenkellers were used as gas chambers, than arguing over HCN levels and that is evidence of usage. That method is rejected by revisionists, because they know they lose. Hence, they want to make out the lower than expected levels is significant evidence the places were never used for mass gassings.

[Nessie]

Nessie's inability to argue coherently ...

My argument is coherent. The data gathered on HCN levels has all sorts of issues caused by the destruction of the buildings, the time between use and testing and comparisons being available for delousing and fumigation, but not for mass gassing.

....along with his refusal to confront relevant data

I have confronted it, and explained why it is not necessarily reliable for the reasons I just gave above and why, counter intuitively, it is lower than expected.

...are why he will likely never be invited back to the real Debate board. He just recycles the same circular assertions over and over without addressing anything of substance.

The cyclical nature of debates with revisionists, is down to revisionism constantly presenting the same arguments again and again. You have had nothing new for the debate, for years, if not decades.

I don't make assertions. It is evidenced that the Nazis destroyed or altered, as best they could, the buildings used for gassings, which in itself is evidence of a cover up to hide criminal activity. I do not assume that mass gassings would produce lower than delousing levels of HCN, I provide explanations as to what that is.

I will add that as the Debate board has not been busy lately, the bar right now is pretty low, and Nessie still can't meet it. I would rather have the Debate board sit idle until someone smart comes along than to have it larded up with Nessie's lame posts.

As an aside, it's pretty funny that the opposition has complained loudly for years about CODOH's supposed censorship, yet I can tell you the door here has been wide open. They don't come by here because they know it's not going to go well for them.

The reason why you censor me, but not bombsaway and Sanity Check, is because they debate you where you feel strongest. They concentrate on the evidence, such as the Kula columns and the evidence from a construction office document and eyewitness descriptions. You feel you have skin in the game when it comes to that evidence. I, on the other hand, debate you where you feel weakest, methodology. I point out, correctly in terms of both logic and evidence, not knowing exactly how the Kula columns worked, and your dissatisfaction with the explanations, is of no evidential value and it does not prove there were no such columns and the eyewitnesses lied and the document is false. You are unable to counter my points about your methodology, so I have to be quarantined, to protect the debate you are comfortable with.

The reason why few others bother with you, is because they quickly see how wrong you are and how stubbornly you cling to your faulty methodology.

[Keen]

There is also the problem of the Nazis destruction of the evidence.

nessie:

The Nazis were not trying to magically disappear the corpses and the graves.

All the mass graves dug by the Nazis, and the corpses they cremated, are still at the AR camps.

They were not full cremations to ashes at the AR camps either.

The mass graves have not disappeared.

As it stands, there have been two main archaeological surveys of TII.

There is a ton of archaeological evidence proving mass graves.

They are still there.

I can point to them in the ground.

[Nessie]

Why is there such a reluctance to discuss how any of this has any evidential value?

viewtopic.php?p=25991#p25991

An interesting facet to this aspect is that a slightly wider passage was given in his earlier deposition, of 25mm. It is this earlier, wider slot width, that Van Pelt chose to use in his designs, possibly because it is slightly more forgiving for his needs.

However, the thinner, less forgiving trial testimony came later, and is accompanied by a positive statement as to the intended purpose of "increase(d) the gas-evaporation surface". Given that a thinner passage will reduce gas evaporation surface, it seems he has it backwards, like much else in the Holocaust!

[Keen]

Why is there such a reluctance to discuss how any of this has any evidential value?

viewtopic.php?t=800

viewtopic.php?t=674

[Archie]

There is no data from a place that is accepted as used for mass gassings, to act as a comparison.

There's a ton of relevant data.
-American HCN gas chambers (hundreds of executions - which give us data on the concentrations used, the time to death, the procedures, etc)
-Tons of info on Zyklon B and on HCN
-Lots of information about the chemistry of the building materials
-Experiments performed by Germar on PB formation under controlled conditions

We have a lot to go on. You are pretending we don't because you don't want to know the real answer.

... and there are reasons why the residue is as it is, such as exposure for minutes rather than hours, swifter ventilation and the effect bodies have on the atmosphere inside the chamber, compared to clothing, or nothing at all. ...

Short exposure and fast ventilation both depend on the Kula columns, retard.

Blowing up or demolishing the Kremas makes the gathering of data, such as accurate levels of HCN in the walls.

Wrong. The roof was caved in but the walls of Kremas II and III are still there. They were not vaporized. PB is extremely difficult to remove once formed.

[Nessie]

There is no data from a place that is accepted as used for mass gassings, to act as a comparison.

There's a ton of relevant data.
-American HCN gas chambers (hundreds of executions - which give us data on the concentrations used, the time to death, the procedures, etc)

Individual executions in purpose built gas chambers, not mass executions in a converted mortuary.

-Tons of info on Zyklon B and on HCN

Of which nothing is pertinent to mass gassings, as the Nazis, if they did keep any records of the experimentation they are evidenced to have run in 1941 in Block 11, they were destroyed.

-Lots of information about the chemistry of the building materials
-Experiments performed by Germar on PB formation under controlled conditions

You have buildings that the Nazis destroyed or altered, so any experimentation is theoretical.

We have a lot to go on. You are pretending we don't because you don't want to know the real answer.

You have no real time data and have to make a lot of assumptions and guesses. I know what the real answer is. The gas chambers functioned and killed hundreds of thousands. I know that because of the corroborating evidence.

... and there are reasons why the residue is as it is, such as exposure for minutes rather than hours, swifter ventilation and the effect bodies have on the atmosphere inside the chamber, compared to clothing, or nothing at all. ...

Short exposure and fast ventilation both depend on the Kula columns, retard.

Only two gas chambers used the columns. Gassing people for minutes at a time, is different to gassing clothes for hours at a time.

Blowing up or demolishing the Kremas makes the gathering of data, such as accurate levels of HCN in the walls.

Wrong. The roof was caved in but the walls of Kremas II and III are still there. They were not vaporized. PB is extremely difficult to remove once formed.

Only someone with no crime scene examination training or experience, would suggest that definitive answers can be obtained from destroyed evidence. Scientifically and evidentially, you are wrong to make definitive claims about the possibility of gassings taking place inside the Kremas and two converted farm houses, so you resort to making over confident assertions that you are correct and that because you cannot work out how gassings were possible, that is proof no gassings took place.

The investigators who researched the claims about mass gassings at Dachau and Bergen-Belsen, thankfully, knew what they were doing. Instead of your approach and arguing whether gassings were possible in either of those places, they looked to see how strong the evidence was. They found that there were no eyewitnesses to the supposed gassings, the camp staff denied gassings took place and camp records did not have large numbers of prisoners arriving and then disappearing from all records. That evidence based investigation is what you should be doing, but you know it results in the evidence proving mass gassings at Birkenau. That is why you have had to switch to an opinion, argument based investigation, which is unique to Holocaust denier/revisionists and not used by any historian, journalist or criminal investigator.

[Keen]

nessie:

There is evidence, that certain people chose not to believe.

Here is evidence that the mentally ill HC cult members cravenly refuse to believe:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 100 graves in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these five sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

Note: Using the information presented on this website and applying legal standards used in U.S. courts, the above opening / fundamental statement of fact, which is written as, and can be defined as - a rebuttable presumption - can be - LEGALLY - ACCEPTED - AS - TRUE - in a U.S. court.

https://thisisaboutscience.com/

The total lack of physical evidence for mass murder is evidence that there was no mass murder.

If the physical evidence for an alleged mass murder that - HAS TO EXIST - for the mass murder to have

actually happened - DOES NOT EXIST - then the alleged mass murder obviously - DID NOT HAPPEN.

Ergo: The orthodox “pure extermination center” story is - A PROVEN, NONSENSICAL BIG-LIE.