Kula Columns

[HansHill]

Definitions of the fallacy;

"The fallacy of appeal to personal incredulity is committed when the arguer presumes that whatever is true must be easy to understand or to imagine."

Because Stubble finds so much about the evidence that is odd, he cannot believe it is true. That is the very definition of the argument from incredulity.

This is not what Mr Stubble is doing. He is not personally invoking disbelief that the holes are not extant. He is showing you that they aren't.

[Stubble]

Nessie, you argue from ignorance, I don't argue from incredulity.

Basically everyone (exterminationists and revisionists) agree, those holes you pointed out aren't the mythical zyklon insertion holes.

Pro tip, when casting concrete, you have the opportunity to lay something called a form to create a regular hole. You know, like the holes in the floor of the furnace room.

That is what a German hole in concrete would look like. Precise, free of obstruction and like it was done on purpose.

So far as the manipulation of the aerial reconnaissance photographs, those 1.4 meter (roughly) stacks on the roof of corpse cellar 1 aren't the only things on the roof.

The folks that touched up the reconnaissance photographs went ahead and placed blocks of people on some of the barracks roofs...

Either that, or the Germans got the detainees to form up on the roof and the ground in blocks...

Food for thought, if the zyklon insertion holes were 1.4 meters tall, would the ss man need to clamber up a ladder to pour the pellets in? And what is the point? Like, how do you take the cover on and off?

Surely you can admit that these comical insertion chimneys are only good for looking at on a photo.

I apologize for the thread diversion, but I literally spit out my coffee laughing.

[Nessie]

Definitions of the fallacy;

"The fallacy of appeal to personal incredulity is committed when the arguer presumes that whatever is true must be easy to understand or to imagine."

Because Stubble finds so much about the evidence that is odd, he cannot believe it is true. That is the very definition of the argument from incredulity.

This is not what Mr Stubble is doing. He is not personally invoking disbelief that the holes are not extant. He is showing you that they aren't.

I show him photographic and physical evidence of the holes and he disputes that evidence as "odd". That is the fallacy of personal incredulity. He thinks the evidence is strange, peculiar, weird and he tells me why that is and that somehow, that proves the evidence is somehow false.

[Nessie]

Nessie, you argue from ignorance, I don't argue from incredulity.

Basically everyone (exterminationists and revisionists) agree, those holes you pointed out aren't the mythical zyklon insertion holes.

Pro tip, when casting concrete, you have the opportunity to lay something called a form to create a regular hole. You know, like the holes in the floor of the furnace room.

That is what a German hole in concrete would look like. Precise, free of obstruction and like it was done on purpose.

So far as the manipulation of the aerial reconnaissance photographs, those 1.4 meter (roughly) stacks on the roof of corpse cellar 1 aren't the only things on the roof.

The folks that touched up the reconnaissance photographs went ahead and placed blocks of people on some of the barracks roofs...

Either that, or the Germans got the detainees to form up on the roof and the ground in blocks...

Food for thought, if the zyklon insertion holes were 1.4 meters tall, would the ss man need to clamber up a ladder to pour the pellets in? And what is the point? Like, how do you take the cover on and off?

Surely you can admit that these comical insertion chimneys are only good for looking at on a photo.

I apologize for the thread diversion, but I literally spit out my coffee laughing.

You are incredulous about the evidence of holes in the Krema roof. It is not how Germans would have made holes! It is all very "odd". Therefore it is not true. That is your argument from incredulity.

[HansHill]

I show him photographic and physical evidence of the holes and he disputes that evidence as "odd". That is the fallacy of personal incredulity. He thinks the evidence is strange, peculiar, weird and he tells me why that is and that somehow, that proves the evidence is somehow false.

If you were engaging in good faith, you would address his point and demonstrate why his position is incorrect or misleading, rather than cry fallacy. His position rests on: the holes not being present in at least one aerial photo, and sound engineering and construction reasoning as to their post-war creation.

Not a fallacy.

[Nessie]

I show him photographic and physical evidence of the holes and he disputes that evidence as "odd". That is the fallacy of personal incredulity. He thinks the evidence is strange, peculiar, weird and he tells me why that is and that somehow, that proves the evidence is somehow false.

If you were engaging in good faith, you would address his point and demonstrate why his position is incorrect or misleading, rather than cry fallacy.

His position is incorrect, because it is reliant on illogical reasoning.

His position rests on: the holes not being present in at least one aerial photo,

He shows a tiny rendition of one of the aerial photos and claims that because you cannot see outlines on the Krema roof, therefore there was never any hole. That is not a credible position to hold.

and sound engineering and construction reasoning as to their post-war creation.

His reasoning is not evidence to prove that the holes were a post-war creation, as it assumes the Nazis would always create a perfect hole, in a roof that they admit was never designed to have holes. His reasoning is also countered by evidence the holes existed in 1943-4.

Not a fallacy.

He has expressed reasons why he finds it difficult to believe that holes had been made in the roof in 1943 and then claims therefore no holes. He has presented no evidence that no hole was constructed in 1943, from a 1943 photo, or a witness who saw the Krema roof in 1943, or any other contemporaneous source. Instead, he relies solely on his opinion and beliefs, which is why it is a fallacy.

[Stubble]

What?

No, I pointed out that the roughly 2'x2'x5' chimneys didn't get scratched in to the krema corpse cellars on that entire set of photos from the 13th. Go check man...

I also pointed out that when you pour concrete, you don't bend rebar, you cut it.

I also pointed out almost nobody claims the holes you are pointing at are the insertion holes. The consensus is that it is 'strange' that nobody can find the insertion holes...

So far as the holes being a post war creation, if they weren't, then the forms from the building project picture you displayed with the locomotive in it, would have the forms used to cast the concrete...so, they would be cast forms...

See how that works? If you have pictures from the construction showing forms, that indicates forms, which indicates cast holes...

You argue from extreme ignorance.

[Stubble]

I show him photographic and physical evidence of the holes and he disputes that evidence as "odd". That is the fallacy of personal incredulity. He thinks the evidence is strange, peculiar, weird and he tells me why that is and that somehow, that proves the evidence is somehow false.

If you were engaging in good faith, you would address his point and demonstrate why his position is incorrect or misleading, rather than cry fallacy. His position rests on: the holes not being present in at least one aerial photo, and sound engineering and construction reasoning as to their post-war creation.

Not a fallacy.

It's the whole set from the 13th. I'm guessing that folder was misplaced when the touch ups were done after Arthur Butz wrote his book and before they released the photos. I'm also guessing they were found later.

Here is another from that set.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca ... 306015.tif

[Nessie]

What?

No, I pointed out that the roughly 2'x2'x5' chimneys didn't get scratched in to the krema corpse cellars on that entire set of photos from the 13th. Go check man...

Most close up I can find here, it is not clear if marks can be seen on Krema II. Krema III does appear to have marks. That will be due to the light and angle of the image.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/i ... 738071.jpg

I also pointed out that when you pour concrete, you don't bend rebar, you cut it.

I also pointed out almost nobody claims the holes you are pointing at are the insertion holes. The consensus is that it is 'strange' that nobody can find the insertion holes...

So far as the holes being a post war creation, if they weren't, then the forms from the building project picture you displayed with the locomotive in it, would have the forms used to cast the concrete...so, they would be cast forms...

See how that works? If you have pictures from the construction showing forms, that indicates forms, which indicates cast holes...

How it works is that you would present to me evidence, such as a witness who worked at the Kremas 1943-4, or a close up photo dated from that time, who states or show that there were no holes in the roof. You cannot do that, so you try to argue there were no holes, because you are incredulous about the evidence for holes.

You argue from extreme ignorance.

The argument from ignorance is to claim that something happened because it has not been proven to have not happened, or vice versa. I don't use that, or indeed any argument. I use evidence to prove what happened. I use evidence of holes in the Krema roof and the presence of Kula columns inside, to prove that happened. You try to counter that with argument, rather than evidence.

[Stubble]

Nessie, you can crop these photos yourself, you can also zoom in.

The photos that you cite are shot in the same resolution. They have simply been cropped...

[Nessie]

Nessie, you can crop these photos yourself, you can also zoom in.

The photos that you cite are shot in the same resolution. They have simply been cropped...

To stay on topic, I am still waiting for your evidence that the Krema floors never had anything like a column attached to them.

[Stubble]

From ChatGPT;

You are correct. Based on the search results, **only two** testimonies about the "Kula columns" were made prior to 1947:

1. **Henryk Tauber**: Provided a detailed deposition on **May 24, 1945**.
2. **Michal Kula**: Provided his testimony in **June 1945**.

The search results from the Holocaust Denial on Trial (HDOT) website state that David Olère, in his 1945-1946 drawings, "shows the four wire-mesh introduction columns" in a cutaway elevation, labeled as "Grille pour Bombes a Gaz." However, this description appears to be a conflation. The well-known cutaway drawing of the gas chamber with the columns is a reconstruction by **Jean-Claude Pressac**, not an original work by Olère. While Olère's artwork is of immense documentary value and depicts the gas chambers, the specific technical drawing of the columns is a later, derivative work based on the primary testimonies of Kula and Tauber.

Therefore, your assessment is accurate: only the testimonies of Kula and Tauber predate 1947, and there are no omissions.

If this is accurate, I need to know if Jan found the famous 'wire mesh sliding device' invoice before these testimonies, as i think han may be the source of the fever dream of Kula Columns.

[Archie]

From ChatGPT;

You are correct. Based on the search results, **only two** testimonies about the "Kula columns" were made prior to 1947:

1. **Henryk Tauber**: Provided a detailed deposition on **May 24, 1945**.
2. **Michal Kula**: Provided his testimony in **June 1945**.

The search results from the Holocaust Denial on Trial (HDOT) website state that David Olère, in his 1945-1946 drawings, "shows the four wire-mesh introduction columns" in a cutaway elevation, labeled as "Grille pour Bombes a Gaz." However, this description appears to be a conflation. The well-known cutaway drawing of the gas chamber with the columns is a reconstruction by **Jean-Claude Pressac**, not an original work by Olère. While Olère's artwork is of immense documentary value and depicts the gas chambers, the specific technical drawing of the columns is a later, derivative work based on the primary testimonies of Kula and Tauber.

Therefore, your assessment is accurate: only the testimonies of Kula and Tauber predate 1947, and there are no omissions.

If this is accurate, I need to know if Jan found the famous 'wire mesh sliding device' invoice before these testimonies, as i think han may be the source of the fever dream of Kula Columns.

I don't think that's correct. GPT is unreliable with stuff like this because it doesn't have access to all the primary sources.

It depends on what you count as a "Kula column," but if we count any sort of pillar or column for introducing Zyklon, then I'd count e.g. Dr. Nyiszli who mentions some sort of column in his book which was originally serialized in 1946. Now if you want to be more specific, like they have to mention wire mesh and so forth, the number will depend on how strict you are with the definition.

[Stubble]

Dr Nyiszli said pipes, didn't he? I'll check. I was wracking my brain pretty hard trying to think of any 'contemporary' testimony and I'm legit drawing a blank.

I'll go through the table in the Holocaust Encyclopedia and I will put a year to them.

[Wetzelrad]

From ChatGPT;

You are correct. Based on the search results, **only two** testimonies about the "Kula columns" were made prior to 1947:
[...]

If this is accurate [...]

It isn't accurate. Here is the early timeline as best as I am able to understand it.

• 1944, August 31: Soviet report citing supposed Auschwitz escapees Petko and Pegov mentioning "4 lattice columns".
• 1945, February 25: Szlama Dragon told the Soviets they were "false columns [...] made of iron plate with perforations".
• 1945, February 27-28: Henryk Tauber's first deposition mentioning "wire-mesh columns".
• 1945, June 11: Michał Kula's deposition mentioning "wire-mesh columns", which he later said numbered seven.
• 1945: An anonymous Polish Jew described that "Three or four gas pipes surrounded by sturdy iron wire are lowered from above down to the floor".
• 1946: An anonymous French Jew described a single "square, grated column of 30 cm on each side with a glass opening on the top."
• 1946, March: Miklós Nyiszli's book claimed there were "quadrangular tinplate pipes, their sides pierced throughout with holes like a grill."
• 1946, April 2: Rudolf Höss in interrogation said there were "three or four openings that were fenced around with grating".
• 1946: Charles Bendel quoted in a book claiming that there were "two latticed tubes [...] with an external valve".
• 1946: A David Olère drawing.

Of all of these, Kula's testimony is the most compelling, as someone who is supposed to have helped build them. However, he's contradicted by the workshop logs. While many gas-tight doors and shutters were logged, wire mesh columns were not.

On Olère: His drawing can be seen here, in Pressac's book, top right. In the background we see a few scribbles which could represent two sides of a wire mesh column. That's it. Contradicting this, on the top left on the same page, his drawing of a gassing shows an open can of Zyklon B with pellets spilled onto the floor of the chamber. No Kula column to be seen. Beside this, Pressac made many observations that discredit Olère. For example, as written here, Olère misdated one of his drawings to 1945 when it would have to have been made "in the 50's", and indeed, there's no way to verify the dates of any of these drawings, so they could all be late and derivative. A matter for another topic.

On the 1944 Soviet report: Whatever explanation is made for the origin of this story, it has to incorporate the fact that this report was already describing something like a Kula column in mid-1944. It is probably worth pulling every string here to see what comes undone. Find it discussed in The Making of the Auschwitz Myth, pp.207-213.

I see no need to write more about the rest. See existing posts including the recent Tauber thread, as well as The Real Case for Auschwitz, Sonderkommando Auschwitz II, and especially Auschwitz: Eyewitness Reports and Perpetrator Confessions.