Challenge for Believers

[Nessie]

Not unlike jews for the various expulsions and the North Koreans, who went where jews and North Koreans are, they went where jews are.

The orthodoxy can't provide any information on these missing persons. If we just go by names, you have to cut the death count by 2/3rds. If you remove multiple entries you enter revisionist territory with roughly 500,000...

/shrug

There is a lot of information about North Korean defectors, with the main missing numbers, of those who fled to China, where they have to go into hiding, as China does not accept defectors. If the same level of evidence was available for Jews in 1944 and 1945, there would be no question mass murder claims would have been dismissed as atrocity stories.

[HansHill]

Not unlike jews for the various expulsions and the North Koreans, who went where jews and North Koreans are, they went where jews are.

The orthodoxy can't provide any information on these missing persons. If we just go by names, you have to cut the death count by 2/3rds. If you remove multiple entries you enter revisionist territory with roughly 500,000...

/shrug

There is a lot of information about North Korean defectors, with the main missing numbers, of those who fled to China, where they have to go into hiding, as China does not accept defectors. If the same level of evidence was available for Jews in 1944 and 1945, there would be no question mass murder claims would have been dismissed as atrocity stories.

No.

You have grossly oversimplified this challenge. There is next to nothing about these defectors as they in the main, returned to NK. There is a small subset that make their way to third party states (like USA, Vietnam or another SE Asian country) with the net-remainder ending up in S Korea. You particularly have ignored the early Cold War, which i warned you against, choosing to focus on recent year stats (which is irrelevant in this analogy)

You cannot account for this ethnic group of political dissidents against the backdrop of the Cold War because interested Nation States have made it impossible for you along ideological, political and propaganda grounds.

[Stubble]

Nessie, I can show you Polish Soviet jews and jews in those satelite states sent 'to gulag'. I can give you reports of almost 1,000,000 of them receiving international aid. I cannot yet walk you over to the Soviet Union and point at these missing individuals with a head count.

I can show you loose and inflated Soviet census data, I can show you changes in ethnicity or nationality in the census and I can show you upward census revision prewar and downward revision post war with 1945 being a 'gold standard' year.

You don't want to look at this and you will insult my intellect saying I'm some dope, you will diminish my argument saying 'we know it happened because it happened' and you will accuse me of logical fallacies.

For this thread, what I say in reply, is that I can provide you with the same quality of evidence that you have provided here for the other expulsions, and it is still insufficient for you, because I've 'fallen for the deneir hoax'.

/shrug

Honestly, there really isn't much for me to say.

I'm not going to just sit by and let you say whatever you like without rebuttal. That doesn't mean I think there is anything constructive we can learn from one another or that our dialogue is in any way useful.

I'll tell you what, you ignore me, I'll ignore you, and we can both have our crisps and biscuits and be happy, fair?

[Nessie]

Nessie, I can show you Polish Soviet jews and jews in those satelite states sent 'to gulag'. I can give you reports of almost 1,000,000 of them receiving international aid. I cannot yet walk you over to the Soviet Union and point at these missing individuals with a head count.

I can show you loose and inflated Soviet census data, I can show you changes in ethnicity or nationality in the census and I can show you upward census revision prewar and downward revision post war with 1945 being a 'gold standard' year.

You don't want to look at this and you will insult my intellect saying I'm some dope, you will diminish my argument saying 'we know it happened because it happened' and you will accuse me of logical fallacies.

In this instance, I will point out your failure to understand that Jews who were never arrested by the Nazis are not who the question, "where did they go?" is about. Soviet and other Jews whom, for various reasons, the Nazis never got hold of, are mostly accounted for. There is evidence where they went during the war, from Soviet Jews being sent to Siberia, or western Jews who escaped to the UK.

For this thread, what I say in reply, is that I can provide you with the same quality of evidence that you have provided here for the other expulsions, and it is still insufficient for you, because I've 'fallen for the deneir hoax'.

/shrug

Honestly, there really isn't much for me to say.

You could say that you understand that Jews never arrested by the Nazis, can be accounted for, unlike Jews who were arrested by the Nazis.

I'm not going to just sit by and let you say whatever you like without rebuttal. That doesn't mean I think there is anything constructive we can learn from one another or that our dialogue is in any way useful.

I'll tell you what, you ignore me, I'll ignore you, and we can both have our crisps and biscuits and be happy, fair?

Not really, when this is a debate forum and interaction is the point.

[Nessie]

Not unlike jews for the various expulsions and the North Koreans, who went where jews and North Koreans are, they went where jews are.

The orthodoxy can't provide any information on these missing persons. If we just go by names, you have to cut the death count by 2/3rds. If you remove multiple entries you enter revisionist territory with roughly 500,000...

/shrug

There is a lot of information about North Korean defectors, with the main missing numbers, of those who fled to China, where they have to go into hiding, as China does not accept defectors. If the same level of evidence was available for Jews in 1944 and 1945, there would be no question mass murder claims would have been dismissed as atrocity stories.

No.

You have grossly oversimplified this challenge. There is next to nothing about these defectors as they in the main, returned to NK. There is a small subset that make their way to third party states (like USA, Vietnam or another SE Asian country) with the net-remainder ending up in S Korea. You particularly have ignored the early Cold War, which i warned you against, choosing to focus on recent year stats (which is irrelevant in this analogy)

You cannot account for this ethnic group of political dissidents against the backdrop of the Cold War because interested Nation States have made it impossible for you along ideological, political and propaganda grounds.

As I pointed to some very detailed evidence as to the whereabouts of NK defectors, you claim they do not count and only those who for whom there is little information count. But there is still some information, as in it is evidenced they hide in China and if found they are sent back. They are all from the same group, they are NK people who defected from NK.

Jews arrested by the Nazis 1939-44 are all part of the same group. If they had not been killed, then by 1944, that group would be massive. But by 1945 that group is tiny and you cannot evidence the rest were still alive. Unlike the NK, you have far more people totally unaccounted for. It is not like the NK hiding in China, for whom there is some evidence, there is zero evidence. Nothing. Diddly squat. You cannot say where they were.

The missing Jews is also odd, since the Nazis knew they were being accused of killing them, so it was in their interests to show they were still alive and end that allegation. The opposite applies to NK defectors, for whom as you say, it is some nation states, primarily NK and China, to hide evidence of what happened to those people.

[bombsaway]

Not unlike jews for the various expulsions and the North Koreans, who went where jews and North Koreans are, they went where jews are.

The orthodoxy can't provide any information on these missing persons. If we just go by names, you have to cut the death count by 2/3rds. If you remove multiple entries you enter revisionist territory with roughly 500,000...

/shrug

The disappearance of Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz is one unresolvable but the fact of what happened to those sent to the Russian east is a much bigger one (in terms population easily 10x). Yet there's no evidence of them being concentrated anywhere in German Occupied USSR, no evidence of them being maintained there. When you look at the Soviet expulsions you can see this evidence of transit and maintenance through witness and documentary record.

It's a delusion on the part of revisionists to say the demand is account for every single one of these Jews. It's delusion to say account for even 1% of them.

The threshold being set is actually, give me anything substantial. What's the best evidence non-working Jews were being concentrated and maintained there? A single witness statement would suffice, eg we went by train into Russia and were kept in a dingy camp with a bunch of other families for a year or two until eventually we were liberated.

[HansHill]

As I pointed to some very detailed evidence as to the whereabouts of NK defectors, you claim they do not count and only those who for whom there is little information count. But there is still some information, as in it is evidenced they hide in China and if found they are sent back. They are all from the same group, they are NK people who defected from NK.

Jews arrested by the Nazis 1939-44 are all part of the same group. If they had not been killed, then by 1944, that group would be massive. But by 1945 that group is tiny and you cannot evidence the rest were still alive. Unlike the NK, you have far more people totally unaccounted for. It is not like the NK hiding in China, for whom there is some evidence, there is zero evidence. Nothing. Diddly squat. You cannot say where they were.

The missing Jews is also odd, since the Nazis knew they were being accused of killing them, so it was in their interests to show they were still alive and end that allegation. The opposite applies to NK defectors, for whom as you say, it is some nation states, primarily NK and China, to hide evidence of what happened to those people.

"As i pointed to some very detailed evidence"

Nothing during the period in question, and all post-1998 for some pathetic reason. Meaning you have 4 decades worth of non-existent information, which is exactly what I challenged you to find, the exact era I specified, and the exact analogy being made because it can't be done. Laughable.

"Unlike the NK, you have far more people totally unaccounted for"

Pissing around with estimates of who arrived in S Korea since 1998 and presented themselves to an authority is a woefully incomplete set and contrasts with the entire missing set in question which was your original challenge. Your failure in this challenge underscores why this is so difficult: you're not meant to find them, genius.

[Stubble]

Not unlike jews for the various expulsions and the North Koreans, who went where jews and North Koreans are, they went where jews are.

The orthodoxy can't provide any information on these missing persons. If we just go by names, you have to cut the death count by 2/3rds. If you remove multiple entries you enter revisionist territory with roughly 500,000...

/shrug

The disappearance of Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz is one unresolvable but the fact of what happened to those sent to the Russian east is a much bigger one (in terms population easily 10x). Yet there's no evidence of them being concentrated anywhere in German Occupied USSR, no evidence of them being maintained there. When you look at the Soviet expulsions you can see this evidence of transit and maintenance through witness and documentary record.

It's a delusion on the part of revisionists to say the demand is account for every single one of these Jews. It's delusion to say account for even 1% of them.

The threshold being set is actually, give me anything substantial. What's the best evidence non-working Jews were being concentrated and maintained there? A single witness statement would suffice, eg we went by train into Russia and were kept in a dingy camp with a bunch of other families for a year or two until eventually we were liberated.

The evidence I can present is commensurate with the evidence provided for previous expulsions and North Korean defectors.

Are you denying that there the Operation Reinhardt camps were not the extent of the camp system in the east?

Are you denying that internees were exchanged with the allies?

What is this 'smoking gun' that you demand to see?

One of the first problems with this particular issue is that you rely on inflated prewar census and deflated post war census. Then you take these erroneous estimates and use them to say 'this many jews were here, they are all gone by the end of the war, the nazis obviously killed them'. You ignore evacuations conducted by the Soviet during barbarossa, you ignore jews transited west out of this cohort, you ignore jews that emigrated pre barbarossa, and you consolidate all of this to throw up a number of 3,000,000ish murdered by the nazis.

You do this with a list of roughly 1/3 of the correspondent names that when culled for duplication in name and birthdate yields around 500,000 unique individuals.

I don't know what to tell you here Bombsaway, I've got my nose to the grindstone here, but, it isn't looking like a nazi mass murder genocide extermination plan to me, it just isn't.

Of course I'm not done looking. I can't give you a head count. I don't have a complete dataset. From the data I do have, it remarkably all looks a lot like majdanek to me.

Now, I want to be very clear, 500,000 people is a lot. People died in concentration camps. People were also shot in reprisal killings and decimations. This is not 'good'. It is a tragedy.

Scale and intentionality matter however and the orthodox narrative, to me, currently, from where I am standing, looks a lot like allied propaganda that has been gardened and tended post war and hasn't been held to a thorough accounting and investigation.

At the very least, if you are going to say there was a homicidal gas chamber extermination program, couldn't you at least show evidence in the extant purported chambers of criminal usage? An order? The safety protocols? The design considerations?

Again, executees dispatched with hydrogen cyanide gas are toxic, they are deadly if proper ppe is not stringently used. Look at the protocol for gas execution laid out by any other party that engaged in the practice. It isn't some easy thing that requires no safety considerations.

When we get to the execution chambers described for the Operation Reinhardt camps, it doesn't really matter if the engine is diesel or petrol, this is true. Ultimately an engine, even a tank engine, will not produce carbon monoxide in a quantity sufficient to execute a warehouse full of people in 15 minutes. It doesn't move enough cfm or create enough C0 gas, it just doesn't.

At 700 cfm, you could effectively execute people in a room roughly the size of a standard bathroom in 15 minutes, going by cfm alone, without even considering pollutant concentration.

This isn't even mentioning the reinvention of the wheel described in the orthodox narrative. It is ignoring the facts surrounding the personnel described as responsible. You have a bus driver that also torched bodies in a crematorium designing and building the execution equipment after the 'program' had moved east and everyone apparently got amnesia about how they killed the infirmed.

There are problems with the orthodox narrative, and I'm not going to close my eyes and my nose and just eat it.

[bombsaway]

What is this 'smoking gun' that you demand to see?

Evidence of Jews being maintained in Nazi controlled USSR beyond 1942. You should go through and investigate communities, camps, ghettos. They all get closed down around this time. Non-working Jews "disappear" or are sent to places like Auschwitz.

I don't know why you keep talking about 500,000 names, or a million names. This is not the demand. I set the threshold here at a single witness which might corroborate the revisionist story.

This is not really a demand, I'm just telling you why I think the "resettlement" belief is off the charts insane. 1 name wouldn't be much of a smoking gun, but you can't do even that. I should also remind you that this is a thread about evidence concerning mass expulsions, population movements, so you're veering off topic with eg your CFM calculations.

Critique of narrative is important by my assessment is that your biases are creeping in when you label things impossible or deeply unlikely. It's worth discussing in a separate thread maybe, but the error you make is one very common with revisionists. There's a narrative that you don't believe in, and yet you assume certain things about it. If historians don't mention air circulators, they MUST not have existed. Your arguments are built on assumptions that reasonable historians simply wouldn't make. If you're judging their narrative, you should try to be fair and strongman it. So in this case, assuming no other information, we don't know if the Nazis used air circulations.

But, as is often the case with you, this assumption about no air ventilation to facilitate gas entry is kind of disproven. We know there were fans to circulate air out of the chambers. If these were switched on, it would serve to facilitate entry of new gas through pipes, and then you turn it off once a certain concentration is reached. I looked briefly and couldn't find direct evidence but there is second order evidence

Treblinka inmate Oskar Strawczynski also wrote in 1944 that he heard from others that:
The doors are hermetically sealed, the motors start to work. The air from inside is sucked out and fumes from burnt gasoline forced in.[26]

I don't have time to fact check all claims, that's why I ask to see the strongest arguments.

[Stubble]

viewtopic.php?t=162

Here is a thread for discussing the backwards ventilation of the corpse cellars at krema II and III at Auschwitz Birkenau.

Krema I deserves it's own thread.

The Operation Reinhardt camps also deserve their own thread.

With the population study, I still have homework. Rest assured, when I am finished and I start a thread, I will provide lists of names (although I doubt they will be replete) of various cohorts of eastern jews and their disposition.

I point again to specifically Hungarian jews, unfit for work, sent to Bergen Belsen, at the time a recovery camp. I feel it fair to mention I'm reasonably sure I will find other Hungarian jews sent to recovery camps. I also remind you of the Hungarian jews kept in medical isolation at Auschwitz Birkenau.

I bring these up specifically because it is a place where I have put on my snorkel and flippers and recently taken a dive.

In the 'refugees' microfilm the jews at Bergen Belsen are specifically referred to by the allies an unfit for work. If I need to cite memoranda to this point, I will. Rest assured, this, just like my other claims is not spurious. If you would like, you can refer to the pertinent thread in the 'safe space' section of the forum and the document labels will be referenced and the reels linked.

[bombsaway]

viewtopic.php?t=162

Here is a thread for discussing the backwards ventilation of the corpse cellars at krema II and III at Auschwitz Birkenau.

Krema I deserves it's own thread.

The Operation Reinhardt camps also deserve their own thread.

With the population study, I still have homework. Rest assured, when I am finished and I start a thread, I will provide lists of names (although I doubt they will be replete) of various cohorts of eastern jews and their disposition.

I point again to specifically Hungarian jews, unfit for work, sent to Bergen Belsen, at the time a recovery camp. I feel it fair to mention I'm reasonably sure I will find other Hungarian jews sent to recovery camps. I also remind you of the Hungarian jews kept in medical isolation at Auschwitz Birkenau.

I bring these up specifically because it is a place where I have put on my snorkel and flippers and recently taken a dive.

In the 'refugees' microfilm the jews at Bergen Belsen are specifically referred to by the allies an unfit for work. If I need to cite memoranda to this point, I will. Rest assured, this, just like my other claims is not spurious. If you would like, you can refer to the pertinent thread in the 'safe space' section of the forum and the document labels will be referenced and the reels linked.

It's not clear at all that those Jews were permanently considered non employable. Do you have records of young children at Belsen? This would prove your theory, as such it is circumstantial.

It's not enough to locate the name of a Jew who was sent into a Russian and survived. We know this happened, they were used for work deployment. What is unknown and not evidenced to any degree, is Jews being mass interned there until liberation. Pick a ghetto and you will see.

[Nazgul]

It's not clear at all that those Jews were permanently considered non employable. Do you have records of young children at Belsen? This would prove your theory, as such it is circumstantial.

Yes, Peter Lantos mentions this in his book "Parallel Lines"; he was a Hungarian Jewish lad (5 yo) whose family paid for their transport out of Hungary. Two transports went West while one headed towards Birkenau. He and family arrived at an Austrian Jewish Labour camp, treated well by the guards. As the war progressed they were moved on to a konzentrationslager where his father, a chain smoker, traded his food for cigarettes. His father perished due to malnutrition, his own making, though of course it is claimed the Germans starved him. Finally they end up at Belsen; he mentions other Jewish children in the camp. Near wars end they were put on another transport heading to Holland (Dec 44), but the train driver just stopped the train. It was intercepted by the US army.
Luck saved mother and son again. They were among 2,500 people on a 'horror train', transporting them deeper into Germany. Then one day, the train just stopped. They got out. There were soldiers, smiling and waving and speaking a language Lantos did not understand. It was American. They and the train-load of the starved had been liberated...the guardian

This quote is a little wrong as they stayed at the location of an old mental institution. The US handed them over to the Soviets, who intended to send them to Russia. They escaped to return to Hungary.

[bombsaway]

It's not clear at all that those Jews were permanently considered non employable. Do you have records of young children at Belsen? This would prove your theory, as such it is circumstantial.

Yes, Peter Lantos mentions this in his book "Parallel Lines"; he was a Hungarian Jewish lad (5 yo) whose family paid for their transport out of Hungary. Two transports went West while one headed towards Birkenau. He and family arrived at an Austrian Jewish Labour camp, treated well by the guards. As the war progressed they were moved on to a konzentrationslager where his father, a chain smoker, traded his food for cigarettes. His father perished due to malnutrition, his own making, though of course it is claimed the Germans starved him. Finally they end up at Belsen; he mentions other Jewish children in the camp. Near wars end they were put on another transport heading to Holland (Dec 44), but the train driver just stopped the train. It was intercepted by the US army.
Luck saved mother and son again. They were among 2,500 people on a 'horror train', transporting them deeper into Germany. Then one day, the train just stopped. They got out. There were soldiers, smiling and waving and speaking a language Lantos did not understand. It was American. They and the train-load of the starved had been liberated...the guardian

This quote is a little wrong as they stayed at the location of an old mental institution. The US handed them over to the Soviets, who intended to send them to Russia. They escaped to return to Hungary.

I've never denied that "resettlements" of a sort didn't happen to Hungarian Jews. The concern was the Jews who stopped at Auschwitz and disappeared in terms of paper trail. The Lantos story does not refute orthodoxy here.

See this passage? Now find something like it for Polish Jewish families shuttled off into Russia in 1942/43.

[Stubble]

Would you settle for a report from the 'International jewish Congress' or with testimonies to the United States Congress via committee?

[bombsaway]

Would you settle for a report from the 'International jewish Congress' or with testimonies to the United States Congress via committee?

Absolutely.