No Holocaust victims have been actually identified

[PangaeaProxima]

You are revealling your ignorance of the history of events. The mass killings started in 1941, with Operation Barbarossa, the invason of the Soviet Union and the Einsatzgruppen. By January 1943, the AR camps at Sobibor, TII and Belzec, between them, had been operational for about 20 months.

I realize that since the Holocaust is a purely fictional event, one starting date for it is as good as any other. But if it is one thing that revisionists have achieved, it is that they forced the Holocaust propagators to come up with an at least semi-coherent "canon" version of the Holocaust in contrast to the initial "anything goes". It would be obviously absurd for revisionists to try to answer to every Make-Up-Your-Own-Holocaust(TM) version. So if in your own private head canon you want to let the Holocaust start already in early 1941 you are free to do so, but in any discussion I will hold your nose to the grind stone of the official version.

I have literally just given you figures of the number of Jews in Nazi controlled Europe and that already, by the start of 1943 they had dropped by 3.1 million.

Yes, by emigration. The point of reference is 1933, remember?

[Nessie]

You are revealling your ignorance of the history of events. The mass killings started in 1941, with Operation Barbarossa, the invason of the Soviet Union and the Einsatzgruppen. By January 1943, the AR camps at Sobibor, TII and Belzec, between them, had been operational for about 20 months.

I realize that since the Holocaust is a purely fictional event, one starting date for it is as good as any other. But if it is one thing that revisionists have achieved, it is that they forced the Holocaust propagators to come up with an at least semi-coherent "canon" version of the Holocaust in contrast to the initial "anything goes". It would be obviously absurd for revisionists to try to answer to every Make-Up-Your-Own-Holocaust(TM) version. So if in your own private head canon you want to let the Holocaust start already in early 1941 you are free to do so, but in any discussion I will hold your nose to the grind stone of the official version.

The history of the Holocaust is based on evidence. Revisionists do not revise that evidenced history, instead, they deny it happened. When asked to revise the history and present an evidenced, new history of what took place, they fall apart. So-called Holocaust revision has contributed nothing, which is why the vast majority of historians ignore it.

I have literally just given you figures of the number of Jews in Nazi controlled Europe and that already, by the start of 1943 they had dropped by 3.1 million.

Yes, by emigration. The point of reference is 1933, remember?

Prove 3.1 million Jews, whom the Nazis has arrested, sent to camps and ghettos by the start of 1943, had subsequently been released and emigrated.

I gave you an example of the Dutch Jews, arrested and sent to Westerbork and whom later in 1943, would be transported to Sobibor. Can you evidence how many of the arrested Dutch Jews emigrated, before the transports commenced?

[PangaeaProxima]

I realize that since the Holocaust is a purely fictional event, one starting date for it is as good as any other. But if it is one thing that revisionists have achieved, it is that they forced the Holocaust propagators to come up with an at least semi-coherent "canon" version of the Holocaust in contrast to the initial "anything goes". It would be obviously absurd for revisionists to try to answer to every Make-Up-Your-Own-Holocaust(TM) version. So if in your own private head canon you want to let the Holocaust start already in early 1941 you are free to do so, but in any discussion I will hold your nose to the grind stone of the official version.

The history of the Holocaust is based on evidence. Revisionists do not revise that evidenced history, instead, they deny it happened. When asked to revise the history and present an evidenced, new history of what took place, they fall apart. So-called Holocaust revision has contributed nothing, which is why the vast majority of historians ignore it.

Too bad that this is no answer to what I wrote. Please try again.

Prove 3.1 million Jews, whom the Nazis has arrested, sent to camps and ghettos by the start of 1943, had subsequently been released and emigrated.

This is getting silly. Even mainstream sources admit that a large part of the Jews had emigrated before that.

In the period from 1933 to 1941, over 60 percent of the 550,000 Jewish Germans who lived in Germany at the beginning of the Nazi regime managed to flee to safety abroad.

I gave you an example of the Dutch Jews, arrested and sent to Westerbork and whom later in 1943, would be transported to Sobibor. Can you evidence how many of the arrested Dutch Jews emigrated, before the transports commenced?

Is your brain melting? Of course, once they have been arrested they can no longer emigrate and of course they get transported to the camps, that was the whole point of arresting them in the first place.

[HansHill]

This is getting silly.

You're right its very silly, and all of this is beneath you Pangaea! Nessie unfortunately believes the holocaust is a priori self-evident and anything counter to this believe is a "fallacy". The good news is, he gives us countless easy layups to dunk on, which is very appealing to the newcomers who frequent this board!

I made a thread about his argumentation style here:

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=143

In the months since this thread, poor Nessie has become even more unhinged and has basically asserted that Rudolf has been debunked because the eyewitnesses said so. Lest I be accused of strawmanning, here's his exact quote date and timestamped:

I thought it was clear, what I was saying. I know that Green rebuts Rudolf, because of the evidence that homicidal gassings happened. I cannot make it any clearer or succinct than that. If you still do not understand, then I cannot help you, due to your inability to get to grips with evidencing.

[TlsMS93]

It depends on what constitutes a Holocaust victim. Gas chambers, shootings, ghettoization, forced labor? Holocaust museums, including their online platforms, come up with a photo every day of a Jewish prisoner who was born in a certain year, was deported to a certain camp, registered there, and did not survive. They count this as a Holocaust victim. Some go further and say that this individual was killed in a gas chamber, but since these are registered prisoners who have an official photo on their admission record, it makes no sense to do all this and then gas them.

And the fact that there were 6 million makes them feel comfortable not naming any of them, despite claiming to know the names of more than 4.5 million of the 6.

[Nessie]

I realize that since the Holocaust is a purely fictional event, one starting date for it is as good as any other. But if it is one thing that revisionists have achieved, it is that they forced the Holocaust propagators to come up with an at least semi-coherent "canon" version of the Holocaust in contrast to the initial "anything goes". It would be obviously absurd for revisionists to try to answer to every Make-Up-Your-Own-Holocaust(TM) version. So if in your own private head canon you want to let the Holocaust start already in early 1941 you are free to do so, but in any discussion I will hold your nose to the grind stone of the official version.

The history of the Holocaust is based on evidence. Revisionists do not revise that evidenced history, instead, they deny it happened. When asked to revise the history and present an evidenced, new history of what took place, they fall apart. So-called Holocaust revision has contributed nothing, which is why the vast majority of historians ignore it.

Too bad that this is no answer to what I wrote. Please try again.

Prove 3.1 million Jews, whom the Nazis has arrested, sent to camps and ghettos by the start of 1943, had subsequently been released and emigrated.

This is getting silly. Even mainstream sources admit that a large part of the Jews had emigrated before that.

In the period from 1933 to 1941, over 60 percent of the 550,000 Jewish Germans who lived in Germany at the beginning of the Nazi regime managed to flee to safety abroad.

I gave you an example of the Dutch Jews, arrested and sent to Westerbork and whom later in 1943, would be transported to Sobibor. Can you evidence how many of the arrested Dutch Jews emigrated, before the transports commenced?

Is your brain melting? Of course, once they have been arrested they can no longer emigrate and of course they get transported to the camps, that was the whole point of arresting them in the first place.

It is those Jews, whom the Nazis arrested, who you say were not murdered in gas chambers, or shot, that I would like you to prove were still alive in 1944. Yes, hundreds of thousands of German Jews emigrated, but what happened to the 20,000 German Jews sent to Riga in 1941? Do you accept they were shot? If not, where is the evidence of where they subsequently lived after 1941?

[Nessie]

This is getting silly.

You're right its very silly, and all of this is beneath you Pangaea! Nessie unfortunately believes the holocaust is a priori self-evident and anything counter to this believe is a "fallacy". The good news is, he gives us countless easy layups to dunk on, which is very appealing to the newcomers who frequent this board!

I made a thread about his argumentation style here:

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=143

In the months since this thread, poor Nessie has become even more unhinged and has basically asserted that Rudolf has been debunked because the eyewitnesses said so. Lest I be accused of strawmanning, here's his exact quote date and timestamped:

I thought it was clear, what I was saying. I know that Green rebuts Rudolf, because of the evidence that homicidal gassings happened. I cannot make it any clearer or succinct than that. If you still do not understand, then I cannot help you, due to your inability to get to grips with evidencing.

If two scientists have competing theories, is the scientist whose theory is evidenced to have happened, more or less likely to be correct, than the scientist whose theory is not evidenced to have happened?

[Nessie]

It depends on what constitutes a Holocaust victim. Gas chambers, shootings, ghettoization, forced labor? Holocaust museums, including their online platforms, come up with a photo every day of a Jewish prisoner who was born in a certain year, was deported to a certain camp, registered there, and did not survive. They count this as a Holocaust victim. Some go further and say that this individual was killed in a gas chamber, but since these are registered prisoners who have an official photo on their admission record, it makes no sense to do all this and then gas them.

And the fact that there were 6 million makes them feel comfortable not naming any of them, despite claiming to know the names of more than 4.5 million of the 6.

For the purpose of this thread, and Holocaust denial in general, a Holocaust victim is someone who was ARRESTED by the Nazis, or the citizens of a country occupied by or aligned to the Nazis, whilst assisting the Nazis. Revisionists deny that arrested Jews were subjected to mass murder. So, what happened to them?

As for naming them, lists of names are available online via various national and Holocaust specific archives. The Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor and the Hungarians sent to A-B, are in national archives. The German Jews sent to Riga are named in archives and on a memorial there. All Jews from Berlin, are named on plaques outside every house that they were living in and arrested from.

It is a lie to claim that no Holocaust victims have been identified. That is a deflection from revisionist inability to revise history and prove millions of arrested Jews were still alive in 1944.

[HansHill]

If two scientists have competing theories, is the scientist whose theory is evidenced to have happened, more or less likely to be correct, than the scientist whose theory is not evidenced to have happened?

If that evidence is eyewitness claims, then no. In that instance it will be judged on the merits of the arguments presented and which arguments are supported scientifically.

[TlsMS93]

For the purpose of this thread, and Holocaust denial in general, a Holocaust victim is someone who was ARRESTED by the Nazis, or the citizens of a country occupied by or aligned to the Nazis, whilst assisting the Nazis. Revisionists deny that arrested Jews were subjected to mass murder. So, what happened to them?

As for naming them, lists of names are available online via various national and Holocaust specific archives. The Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor and the Hungarians sent to A-B, are in national archives. The German Jews sent to Riga are named in archives and on a memorial there. All Jews from Berlin, are named on plaques outside every house that they were living in and arrested from.

It is a lie to claim that no Holocaust victims have been identified. That is a deflection from revisionist inability to revise history and prove millions of arrested Jews were still alive in 1944.

What we have are the names of missing people. There is no way to prove that they were gassed or shot, since according to the official narrative, the Nazis did not register these people. It is also impossible to identify their remains because they do not exist. In other words, the whole story is unintelligible, a conspiracy by definition.

Not even the Jews know how many of them there are, and it is even forbidden to do this work. Are we, the gentiles, the ones who have to worry about this?

[Nessie]

If two scientists have competing theories, is the scientist whose theory is evidenced to have happened, more or less likely to be correct, than the scientist whose theory is not evidenced to have happened?

If that evidence is eyewitness claims, then no. In that instance it will be judged on the merits of the arguments presented and which arguments are supported scientifically.

The reason why you want to reject eyewitness claims, is because you know it is 100% in my favour. If it was the other way around, you would not reject it. You are evidentially wrong to reject eyewitnesses out of hand. When there are a lot of eyewitnesses to an event and importantly, they would not normally cooperate and certain not collude, corroborating testimony is normally regarded as strong. When accused and accuser agree, that is normally taken as proof.

In any case, gassings are also supported by documents recording the construction of heated undressing rooms, barracks to store property, gas chambers, ovens for multiple corpse cremations, for the circumstantial evidence of a special, secretive operation involving inform prisoners, Jews and Hungarians. There is also evidence of motive, opportunity and guilty conduct after the crime.

Eyewitnesses, documents and circumstantial evidence all converge with the forensic evidence, gassings took place.

[Nessie]

For the purpose of this thread, and Holocaust denial in general, a Holocaust victim is someone who was ARRESTED by the Nazis, or the citizens of a country occupied by or aligned to the Nazis, whilst assisting the Nazis. Revisionists deny that arrested Jews were subjected to mass murder. So, what happened to them?

As for naming them, lists of names are available online via various national and Holocaust specific archives. The Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor and the Hungarians sent to A-B, are in national archives. The German Jews sent to Riga are named in archives and on a memorial there. All Jews from Berlin, are named on plaques outside every house that they were living in and arrested from.

It is a lie to claim that no Holocaust victims have been identified. That is a deflection from revisionist inability to revise history and prove millions of arrested Jews were still alive in 1944.

What we have are the names of missing people. There is no way to prove that they were gassed or shot, since according to the official narrative, the Nazis did not register these people. It is also impossible to identify their remains because they do not exist. In other words, the whole story is unintelligible, a conspiracy by definition.

Not even the Jews know how many of them there are, and it is even forbidden to do this work. Are we, the gentiles, the ones who have to worry about this?

The circumstances under which those people went missing, is highly suspicious and the evidence proves they went missing, because they were killed and their corpses disposed of.

Of course, there is a way to prove they were gassed or shot. Gather evidence of what took place inside the camp.

[HansHill]

The reason why you want to reject eyewitness claims, is because you know it is 100% in my favour. If it was the other way around, you would not reject it.

Were it the other way around there would be nothing to reject as there would not be any ridiculous claims.

In any case, gassings are also supported by documents recording the construction of:

- heated undressing rooms - nothing burger
- barracks to store property - nothing burger
- gas chambers - WTF?
- ovens for multiple corpse cremations - what does this mean, exactly?
- for the circumstantial evidence of a special, secretive operation involving inform prisoners, Jews and Hungarians - nothing burger

There is also evidence of motive, opportunity and guilty conduct after the crime.

Eyewitnesses, documents and circumstantial evidence all converge with the forensic evidence, gassings took place.

Emphasis mine. I also note you have dropped the "mesh device" canard, why is that exactly? Have you come to realise finally that you don't have a murder weapon?

[TlsMS93]

The circumstances under which those people went missing, is highly suspicious and the evidence proves they went missing, because they were killed and their corpses disposed of.

Of course, there is a way to prove they were gassed or shot. Gather evidence of what took place inside the camp.

My God, there is evidence that they were killed and their bodies discarded. I hope you attach excellent quality 8k photos, videos of the extermination process and the open-air burning, or even the amount of ash sifted from the places described as having occurred in the genocide that corresponds to the alleged number of victims.

[Nessie]

The reason why you want to reject eyewitness claims, is because you know it is 100% in my favour. If it was the other way around, you would not reject it.

Were it the other way around there would be nothing to reject as there would not be any ridiculous claims.

In any case, gassings are also supported by documents recording the construction of:

- heated undressing rooms - nothing burger
- barracks to store property - nothing burger
- gas chambers - WTF?
- ovens for multiple corpse cremations - what does this mean, exactly?
- for the circumstantial evidence of a special, secretive operation involving inform prisoners, Jews and Hungarians - nothing burger

There is also evidence of motive, opportunity and guilty conduct after the crime.

Eyewitnesses, documents and circumstantial evidence all converge with the forensic evidence, gassings took place.

Emphasis mine. I also note you have dropped the "mesh device" canard, why is that exactly? Have you come to realise finally that you don't have a murder weapon?

Heated undressing rooms, barracks for property, gas chambers and the multiple corpse cremation ovens, are unique to the Kremas of A-B. No other Kremas has ever had such installed. The documents recording the installation, corroborate the witnesses who worked there and talk about undressing, taking property, gassing and mass cremations. I should have included the mesh insertion device and shower heads, as they also corroborate witness descriptions of the gas chambers.

You do not have any evidence of any other function inside the Kremas, including zero eyewitnesses.