Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit"

[Nessie]

Yes, because he was a Polish historian who had to toe the party line. As soon as the SU collapsed, he could and did move to the more accurate, better researched western death tolls.

The Poles and Soviets hoaxed the 4 million figures, necessitating the co-operation of multiple governments, academics, institutions, journalists, agencies, and civilians, for multiple decades

Except according to you, you don't believe that such hoaxes can ever be possible

Yes, the Soviets did hoax a higher death toll and other Warsaw Pact countries followed. The rest of the world did not. Then, when the SU collapsed, the death toll hoax ended.

So, how has a far larger hoax of the Holocaust in its entirety, been managed as a hoax, with the West and Warsaw Pact agreeing and it's continuing after the collapse of the SU? You are using a failed hoax as if it is somehow evidence hoaxes are successful!

Or, was it just Soviet exaggerations, due to their incompetent investigations and their partner countries did not want to embarrass Stalin and other leaders by siding with the West? Hanlon's Razor applying.

I know international, political hoaxes happen, Katyn is another example of that. That such hoaxes happen, does not therefore mean it is possible to pull off a hoax the size of the Holocaust. Iraqi WMDs and Katyn were hoaxes limited to one country, with few people involved. Iraqi WMDs merely involved a few government officials and politicians, creating so-called "dodgy dossiers" accusing the Iraqis of having WMDs. It also likely included the murder of one scientist who was about to blow the whistle. Katyn involved some Soviet officials denying blind that they were responsible and the setting up of some Nazis to take responsibility, which only worked because the Allies were initially inclined to believe the Soviets.

The Holocaust as a hoax involves millions of people, across every single country in Europe, lying, falsifying documents, forensic and archaeological evidence and creating a fake circumstantial narrative, that has held together, despite it being in so many individual and national interests for it to be exposed. It is off the scale in terms of resources needed, compared to Iraqi WMDs and Katyn.

Emphasis mine.

Nessie: Hoaxes aren't possible!!! Unless i need one to slop my way out of something!!!

Slop merchant.

I have not said hoaxes are not possible. I have said, and you have added to that, that hoaxes involving multiple countries over many years, invariably fail. Katyn, Iraqi WMDs, the Soviet death toll, all failed and they did not need the level of cooperation that the Holocaust does.

[HansHill]

This response has been one of the weirdest 'copes' I have ever witnessed from Dr. Terry, in the 12+ years I have been stumbling across his posts. Extremely weird.

Agreed, this is pure cope and seethe.

>Various actors at the State and institutional level have tailored the narrative according to their needs and interests in line with what is politically expedient at the time

We know.

I also note Dr SanityCheck ignores the Bronowski figures and reporting, which shows this 4 million hoax is not localised to Soviet-Bloc WW2 grievances.

Cope.

[HansHill]

Speaking of cope, Nessie is right on cue with more of his slop.

You're quoted directly you slop merchant. Get your act together.

[Nessie]

Speaking of cope, Nessie is right on cue with more of his slop.

You're quoted directly you slop merchant. Get your act together.

You agreed with what you quoted, by exampling the Soviet death toll and how it failed, like Katyn and Iraqi WMDs!!!!!

[Stubble]

Stubble, if I have misunderstood, then I am sorry to 'throw you under the bus' so soon, but in all honesty, some of your responses have seemed a bit questionable. Nothing SC has said here has been particularly compelling nor profound, yet this is not the first time I have seen you respond as though you are feeling especially 'enlightened' or 'super-intrigued' by his fallacious, long-winding responses. I get that you may be new to revisionism but I hope you understand that it is imperative that I (and other revisionists) call out this kind of potential subversion when we see it, to mitigate the undue influence any such efforts might otherwise have.

PM sent

[HansHill]

You said: A hoax requiring the resources of the Holocaust is not possible on that scale involving multiple nations, institutions, and fabricated evidence across time.

You then agree the 4 million hoax was perpetuated for 5 decades within those same parameters.

The receipts are above. More copes from the sloppy operator.

[SanityCheck]

This response has been one of the weirdest 'copes' I have ever witnessed from Dr. Terry, in the 12+ years I have been stumbling across his posts. Extremely weird.

Agreed, this is pure cope and seethe.

>Various actors at the State and institutional level have tailored the narrative according to their needs and interests in line with what is politically expedient at the time

We know.

I also note Dr SanityCheck ignores the Bronowski figures and reporting, which shows this 4 million hoax is not localised to Soviet-Bloc WW2 grievances.

Cope.

No, I didn't 'ignore' Bronowski relying on 4M. I said you are making too much of this, because it's not in dispute that various commentators used 4M. Here:

Your Bronowski example is rather weak, since it's clear that many commentators, whether TV presenters or writers, uncritically accepted the 1945 totals without having looked into them properly

Implicit was that some of these commentators were in the west.

Your arguments on this issue need to rise past the 'so what?' level. So what if TV presenters were uncritical about certain numbers in 1973? WTF does that even *mean*? Why does it *matter* in 2025?

The frequency of how often 4M was invoked in different media or different forms of publications, and in different countries has simply not been established, so the significance of this for Britain vs the US vs France vs West Germany vs Israel vs Poland vs the USSR has also not been established.

All we know is that two out of three historians in the west presenting the earliest overviews of what later became known as the Holocaust, i.e. Reitlinger and Hilberg, had offered significantly lower estimates twenty and twelve years before Bronowski was on TV, and that the Auschwitz museum reduced the total to Reitlingerian and Hilbergian levels 17-18 years after Bronowski was in TV.

I don't recall any revisionist author of the era up to 1990 offering a precise number or even demonstrating a method for calculating a precise number.

[HansHill]

This response has been one of the weirdest 'copes' I have ever witnessed from Dr. Terry, in the 12+ years I have been stumbling across his posts. Extremely weird.

Agreed, this is pure cope and seethe.

>Various actors at the State and institutional level have tailored the narrative according to their needs and interests in line with what is politically expedient at the time

We know.

I also note Dr SanityCheck ignores the Bronowski figures and reporting, which shows this 4 million hoax is not localised to Soviet-Bloc WW2 grievances.

Cope.

No, I didn't 'ignore' Bronowski relying on 4M. I said you are making too much of this, because it's not in dispute that various commentators used 4M. Here:

Your Bronowski example is rather weak, since it's clear that many commentators, whether TV presenters or writers, uncritically accepted the 1945 totals without having looked into them properly

Implicit was that some of these commentators were in the west.

Your arguments on this issue need to rise past the 'so what?' level. So what if TV presenters were uncritical about certain numbers in 1973? WTF does that even *mean*? Why does it *matter* in 2025?

The frequency of how often 4M was invoked in different media or different forms of publications, and in different countries has simply not been established, so the significance of this for Britain vs the US vs France vs West Germany vs Israel vs Poland vs the USSR has also not been established.

All we know is that two out of three historians in the west presenting the earliest overviews of what later became known as the Holocaust, i.e. Reitlinger and Hilberg, had offered significantly lower estimates twenty and twelve years before Bronowski was on TV, and that the Auschwitz museum reduced the total to Reitlingerian and Hilbergian levels 17-18 years after Bronowski was in TV.

I don't recall any revisionist author of the era up to 1990 offering a precise number or even demonstrating a method for calculating a precise number.

Cope.

Bronowski isn't a "commentator" or "TV personality", he was an academic who worked directly with the British military during WW2 in operations research and tactical operations, and post-WW2 investigating the effects of war crimes. Its pure cope to downplay this aspect as insignificant. "He was just being a silly goose and saying things!"

WTF does that even *mean*? Why does it *matter* in 2025?

Nice try. Generations of audiences being told poisonous fabrications about how evil they and their parents and grandparents are, is not acceptable, your copes not withstanding. I am not aware of the BBC retracting anything of this nature or offering apologies to the good people of Germany, likewise the Bronowski estate, but we know this would never happen.

These things matter, and are not incidental to the Holocaust. The fact that the entire Boomer generation had their brains melted with this poison matters. The chutzpah to suggest it doesnt is so charateristically brazen of your side.

[HansHill]

Just to add (rather than make edits because this thread is moving so quicky)

Your pal Nessie is deliberately rejecting that the "4 million hoax" could have been purposely promulgated because its "too complex or requires too much fabricated evidence or requires too many governments" or whatever other slop he has thrown about this board.

This video is just one example, frozen in time, of it being pushed to a National audience, despite him not thinking it's possible.

It was pushed. Fullstop.

[Nessie]

You said: A hoax requiring the resources of the Holocaust is not possible on that scale involving multiple nations, institutions, and fabricated evidence across time.

You then agree the 4 million hoax was perpetuated for 5 decades within those same parameters.

The receipts are above. More copes from the sloppy operator.

The 4 million hoax was perpetrated by the SU, with only the Warsaw pact countries agreeing and it lasted for less than 5 decades. It was only about a death toll.

That is nothing on the scale of hoaxing the entire Holocaust, with every country still agreeing it took place, over 7 decades later.

[HansHill]

You said: A hoax requiring the resources of the Holocaust is not possible on that scale involving multiple nations, institutions, and fabricated evidence across time.

You then agree the 4 million hoax was perpetuated for 5 decades within those same parameters.

The receipts are above. More copes from the sloppy operator.

The 4 million hoax was perpetrated by the SU, with only the Warsaw pact countries agreeing and it lasted for less than 5 decades. It was only about a death toll.

That is nothing on the scale of hoaxing the entire Holocaust, with every country still agreeing it took place, over 7 decades later.

Congratulations. You have gone from:

The Holocaust could not have been hoaxed at this scale!

to

The Holocaust was hoaxed at this scale but only on one side of the iron curtain

I'll take the credit for enlightening you on all these points, my invoice is in the post.

[Nessie]

You said: A hoax requiring the resources of the Holocaust is not possible on that scale involving multiple nations, institutions, and fabricated evidence across time.

You then agree the 4 million hoax was perpetuated for 5 decades within those same parameters.

The receipts are above. More copes from the sloppy operator.

The 4 million hoax was perpetrated by the SU, with only the Warsaw pact countries agreeing and it lasted for less than 5 decades. It was only about a death toll.

That is nothing on the scale of hoaxing the entire Holocaust, with every country still agreeing it took place, over 7 decades later.

Congratulations. You have gone from:

The Holocaust could not have been hoaxed at this scale!

to

The Holocaust was hoaxed at this scale but only on one side of the iron curtain

I'll take the credit for enlightening you on all these points, my invoice is in the post.

The scale of the false death tolls for A-B and some other camps, is nothing like the scale of hoaxing the entire Holocaust. You are making a false equivalence, yet another logically flawed argument from you!

You also ignored my point about Hanlon's Razor and that the Soviet death tolls are actually better explained by incompetence, than an intent to deceive. As hoaxes go, it was a poor one, that only a few countries agreed with and it fell apart. Like Katyn, using small scale hoaxes that failed, as evidence a much larger hoax can be pulled off, is obviously evidentially flawed!

[Nazgul]

The scale of the false death tolls for A-B and some other camps, is nothing like the scale of hoaxing the entire Holocaust. You are making a false equivalence, yet another logically flawed argument from you!

The alleged Holocaust was the murder of 6 million people. There were originally 4 million murdered at Auschwitz and now the 4 million by the Soviets obviously a part of the same hoax. Recent arguments for this holocaust claim about 5 million were "offed". The same set of lies could easily include an extra million.

[HansHill]

"Better explained by incompetence"

Wrong again. The actual explanation is intent to deceive.

[Nessie]

The scale of the false death tolls for A-B and some other camps, is nothing like the scale of hoaxing the entire Holocaust. You are making a false equivalence, yet another logically flawed argument from you!

The alleged Holocaust was the murder of 6 million people. There were originally 4 million murdered at Auschwitz and now the 4 million by the Soviets obviously a part of the same hoax. Recent arguments for this holocaust claim about 5 million were "offed". The same set of lies could easily include an extra million.

The Holocaust death toll was around 6 million according to the West, and far higher according to the Soviets. If the Soviets and the West were not going to agree and cooperate over a basic, like the death toll, how would they successfully agree on and cooperate over everything else? You do know that the Soviets and the West were never inclined to agree and cooperate, don't you?