bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 7:40 am
Yes the Jews were killed, just like he is proposing to do to "incurable" Poles. After their work with the Jews is done, Greiser is saying, they can commence euthanization of the afflicted Poles.
Why do you think he brings up the Jews and the SK which has been giving them "special treatment"? Just speculate a bit and we'll see if it makes sense.
Or, hear me out, they had experience with killing all kinds of people. There was a war going on and many different people got killed and the SS were, in theory at least, supposed to be an elite unit that did a good job at killing all different kinds of people in war, Jew or not. This has nothing to do with the "holocaust". And nothing in the passage you brought up connects it to any "Jewish holocaust".
It's true that SK Lange originally was a more generalized killing unit, euthanaizing people not on the basis of their race but what physical or mental disabilities they had. The documents strongly suggest that the action against the jews was also "euthanasia", any other reading is speculative or incomprehensible. This doesn't directly evidence a Europe wide mass killing operation, rather one localized to the Warthegau. We know that 100,000 jews unfit for work, "the sick of the ghetto" were sent away at this time, westward from Litzmannstadt ghetto towards chelmno, where Documents state sk Lange took up residence , (kulmhof). So this is a description of what happened to those jews.
Secret State Affair!
Litzmannstadt, 9 December 1941
1. Telex to Research Office 5 A 3
Report on evaluated questions no. 236
Re: Clarifying the health question in the Ghetto and the Gypsies' camp
Process: none
The head of the Security Police Office Dr. Schefe explained upon delivering NL 4135 that it was stated during the meeting with the district president on 5 December that the sick of the Ghetto shall be "brought away" at the order of the Gauleiter. On the question of the Security Police if Berlin is informed about this an evasive answer was given.
Research office A Litzmannstadt
[signature]
2. duplicate to FHL B
3. to the files Secret State Affair 4
Secret State Affair!
Vfg. Litzmannstadt, 16 January 1942
1.) Telex to FA 5 A 3
Report on the evaluated questions no. 244
Re.: Ghetto Litzmannstadt
On delivering NL 4429, RR Weygandt of the Security Police Litzmannstadt provided information on the future plans and intention for the Ghetto arrangement. According to this, a complex of currently about 8,000 Jews shall be taken out of the Ghetto after the evacuation of 10,000 Jews unfit for work starting on 16 January. The traffic conditions shall be improved by this and the avenue to Warsaw shall be finally made available again for the public traffic. As RR Weygandt mentioned, this would meet a long time coming wish of the city.
The number of Jews unfit for work is about 100,000 according to RR Weygandt. The Gauleiter - so RR Weygandt reported at the end - plans the settlement of 10,000 Jewish workers from the Warthegau after a further evacuation of Jews unfit for work.
A Litzmannstadt
[signature]
2.) duplicate to FHLB
3.) to the files Secret State Affair 4
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:30 pm
It's true that SK Lange originally was a more generalized killing unit, euthanaizing people not on the basis of their race but what physical or mental disabilities they had. The documents strongly suggest that the action against the jews was also "euthanasia", any other reading is speculative or incomprehensible. This doesn't directly evidence a Europe wide mass killing operation, rather one localized to the Warthegau. We know that 100,000 jews unfit for work were sent away at this time, westward from Lodz ghetto towards chelmno, where Documents state sk Lange took up residence , (kulmhof). So this is a description of what happened to those jews.
Wow you got all that from "use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose". Amazing. Can't argue with that.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:30 pm
It's true that SK Lange originally was a more generalized killing unit, euthanaizing people not on the basis of their race but what physical or mental disabilities they had. The documents strongly suggest that the action against the jews was also "euthanasia", any other reading is speculative or incomprehensible. This doesn't directly evidence a Europe wide mass killing operation, rather one localized to the Warthegau. We know that 100,000 jews unfit for work were sent away at this time, westward from Lodz ghetto towards chelmno, where Documents state sk Lange took up residence , (kulmhof). So this is a description of what happened to those jews.
Wow you got all that from "use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose". Amazing. Can't argue with that.
No, it just means he wants the SK to do the same or a similar thing it did to the 100,000 Jews to the "incurable" Poles. Later documents unmistakably reveal this to be a proposed mass killing operation. What do you think that phrase means?
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:35 pm
No, it just means he wants the SK to do the same or a similar thing it did to the 100,000 Jews to the "incurable" Poles. Later documents unmistakably reveal this to be a proposed mass killing operation. What do you think that phrase means?
"100,000 Jews" doesn't appear anywhere in that phrase. And nowhere is the "special treatment" of the Jews connected in any way to what they are going to do to the Poles. You just made that up.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:35 pm
No, it just means he wants the SK to do the same or a similar thing it did to the 100,000 Jews to the "incurable" Poles. Later documents unmistakably reveal this to be a proposed mass killing operation. What do you think that phrase means?
"100,000 Jews" doesn't appear anywhere in that phrase. And nowhere is the "special treatment" of the Jews connected in any way to what they are going to do to the Poles. You just made that up.
Ok so explain this paragraph to me then
The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
He is saying he is going to use the SK that carried out the special treatment of 1000,000 Jews for another similar task (after the special treatment is concluded), no?
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:01 pm
Ok so explain this paragraph to me then
The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
He is saying he is going to use SK that carried out the special treatment of 1000,000 Jews for another similar task (after the special treatment is concluded), no?
No, he is just saying that the SS is used to whatever kind of work will be necessary in dealing with the Poles. I'll assume for the sake of argument he means killing here, but it should be noted that he actually hasn't yet said what they are going to do. They bring up killing as an option in a later letter. But there is no indication that they have decided yet what they are going to do. But nonetheless, assuming he does mean killing here, the SS has experience with killing that has nothing to do with killing 100,000 Jews. There is nothing connecting any of that. They could be "used to this work" (assuming killing is meant) from a whole bunch of other things that don't involve killing 100,000 Jews. You're just reading connections into things that aren't there. Just because he mentions something at the beginning of a letter doesn't mean everything has to be connected to it. I mention things and then change the subject all the time. This is a normal way of talking.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:01 pm
Ok so explain this paragraph to me then
The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
He is saying he is going to use SK that carried out the special treatment of 1000,000 Jews for another similar task (after the special treatment is concluded), no?
No, he is just saying that the SS is used to whatever kind of work will be necessary in dealing with the Poles. I'll assume for the sake of argument he means killing here, but it should be noted that he actually hasn't yet said what they are going to do. They bring up killing as an option in a later letter. But there is no indication that they have decided yet what they are going to do. But nonetheless, assuming he does mean killing here, the SS has experience with killing that has nothing to do with killing 100,000 Jews. There is nothing connecting any of that. They could be "used to this work" (assuming killing is meant) from a whole bunch of other things that don't involve killing 100,000 Jews. You're just reading connections into things that aren't there. Just because he mentions something at the beginning of a letter doesn't mean everything has to be connected to it. I mention things and then change the subject all the time. This is a normal way of talking.
So why does he mention the Jews, at the beginning and say the SK dealing with them should be put to work after the job is done for similar ends? You have to agree with that at least right? Whatever work they were doing with the Jews they were going to continue after with tubercular poles. Is this just a trivia item?
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:19 pm
So why does he mention the Jews, at the beginning and say the SK dealing with them should be put to work after the job is done for similar ends?
This is not said anywhere in the letter. He never said they should be put to work for "similar ends" to what was done to the 100,000 Jews.
You have to agree with that at least right? Whatever work they were doing with the Jews they were going to continue after with tubercular poles. Is this just a trivia item?
It's pretty simple, I think.
No, you are just hallucinating things that aren't there.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:19 pm
So why does he mention the Jews, at the beginning and say the SK dealing with them should be put to work after the job is done for similar ends?
This is not said anywhere in the letter. He never said they should be put to work for "similar ends" to what was done to the 100,000 Jews.
You have to agree with that at least right? Whatever work they were doing with the Jews they were going to continue after with tubercular poles. Is this just a trivia item?
It's pretty simple, I think.
No, you are just hallucinating things that aren't there.
The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
So break down the part in bold for me, what does it mean to you? You're saying it's just a bunch of nonsense? That is the sentence that connects the two actions.
To me he is going to use the SK conducting the measure against the Jews for a similar or same purpose "that purpose".
The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
After talking about the action against the Jews he brings up a new topic about the TB Poles. He doesn't say the Sonderkommando recently did anything, where they come from, nothing, much less anything against 100,000 Jews. He just says they have experience for what they need to do to Poles. I don't know how further I can break this down.
fireofice wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:58 pm
OK lets look at it:
The special treatment of about 100.000 Jews in the territory of my district (Gau), approved by you in agreement with the Chief of the Reich-Main-Security Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, can be completed within the next 2-3 months. I ask you for permission to rescue the district immediately after the measure taken against the Jews, from a menace, which is increasing week by week, and use the existing and used to this work Sonderkommando for that purpose.
After talking about the action against the Jews he brings up a new topic about the TB Poles. He doesn't say the Sonderkommando recently did anything, where they come from, nothing, much less anything against 100,000 Jews. He just says they have experience for what they need to do to Poles. I don't know how further I can break this down.
What is the relevance of "the measure taken against the Jews"?
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:00 pm
What is the relevance of "the measure taken against the Jews"?
Once they are done with that, they can focus their resources on other things.
You're saying the document doesn't suggest that the SK Greiser wants to use is the same SK that being used for the Jews, it's a different group? the resources are not the SK members themselves...?
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:12 pm
You're saying the document doesn't suggest that SK Greiser wants to use was the same SK that was used for the Jews, it's a different group? the resources are not the SK members themselves...?
He's vague. They may or may not be the ones who carried out the actions against the Jews. But even if they are, them having experience with what needs to be done with the Poles does not mean they just killed 100,000 Jews. That is completely unwarranted.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:12 pm
You're saying the document doesn't suggest that SK Greiser wants to use was the same SK that was used for the Jews, it's a different group? the resources are not the SK members themselves...?
He's vague. They may or may not be the ones who carried out the actions against the Jews. But even if they are, them having experience with what needs to be done with the Poles does not mean they just killed 100,000 Jews. That is completely unwarranted.
We know the Jews were sent to Chelmno where SK Lange was housed, and SK Lange was mentioned by name as the group going to euthanize uncurable Poles, so your argument here would be Lange did euthaniziation, then did a different sort of operation with the Jews, then was going to go back to euthanasia with the uncurable Poles. Is that right? The documents you say, don't discount that possibility.
