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Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:24 pm
by Archie
Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 10:44 am
This is because the nature of the evidence is highly interdependent and doubts in one area naturally carry over to everything else. For example, if you conclude that the Auschwitz gas chambers are fake, this will automatically raise questions about the gas chambers at Treblinka and elsewhere. If you conclude that the confession of Rudolf Hoess is false, it automatically raises questions about other supposed confessions.
The evidence for the Holocaust is not interdependent. [...]

It is also wrong to claim that if one gas chamber is concluded to be fake, then they all should be doubted. Claims about gassings at Bergen-Belsen, were fake. There are doubts about the Dachau gas chambers. That does not mean the well evidenced gas chambers in Birkenau or the AR camps, should be automatically doubted. Likewise, concluding one testimony is false, is not a reason to doubt them all.
It is interdependent because essentially all the gas chambers rely on the same sorts of testimonies, collected by the same "investigative" bodies, at the same sorts of "trials."

The language used in that paragraph you quoted was not absolute. It does not say that one fraudulent gas chamber would prove that the others are also fraudulent, which is how you have chosen to interpret it. It says it raises questions and doubts. To say it would raise no questions at all is sheer foolishness.

Take the "gas chamber" in Auschwitz I. If it were admitted that this was not a gas chamber, do you believe this would have no implications whatsoever for any other gas chambers?

In the case of the Dachau gas chamber, I would say that it was a viable concession for the mainstream to make because it was not, by itself, catastrophically damaging to the Holocaust story. But it still has relevance and that's why revisionists like to bring it up.

The example of the Dachau "gas chamber" calls into question the competence and/or integrity of the American investigators.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:34 pm
by pilgrimofdark
Thanks for taking on this project, Nessie.

I've mocked up where on Yad Vashem and USHMM they could add these new sections like Archie has done here.

I'm not sure both will do it, but once either of them puts up these sections, I think peole will be excited to start submitting essays.

Just let us know when your very fair reciprocal offer is ready.

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edit: made USHMM mockup more ludicrous

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:38 pm
by HansHill
pilgrimofdark wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:34 pm
Spoiler
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Took me a second to notice it, but dang you got me good.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:51 pm
by Nessie
Archie wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:24 pm
Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 10:44 am
This is because the nature of the evidence is highly interdependent and doubts in one area naturally carry over to everything else. For example, if you conclude that the Auschwitz gas chambers are fake, this will automatically raise questions about the gas chambers at Treblinka and elsewhere. If you conclude that the confession of Rudolf Hoess is false, it automatically raises questions about other supposed confessions.
The evidence for the Holocaust is not interdependent. [...]

It is also wrong to claim that if one gas chamber is concluded to be fake, then they all should be doubted. Claims about gassings at Bergen-Belsen, were fake. There are doubts about the Dachau gas chambers. That does not mean the well evidenced gas chambers in Birkenau or the AR camps, should be automatically doubted. Likewise, concluding one testimony is false, is not a reason to doubt them all.
It is interdependent because essentially all the gas chambers rely on the same sorts of testimonies, collected by the same "investigative" bodies, at the same sorts of "trials."
That is like claiming all murders by shooting in Chicago are interdependent. In fact, multiple investigations have been carried out, including by German lawyers and they have all found evidence that has resulted in the same conclusion, gassings took place. Countries such as France have held their own citizens to account for their roles in the Holocaust, or, as in Latvia, they have been criticised for failing to do so. How can the investigations into the Holocaust be interdependent, when so many are involved and the actions are so different?
The language used in that paragraph you quoted was not absolute. It does not say that one fraudulent gas chamber would prove that the others are also fraudulent, which is how you have chosen to interpret it. It says it raises questions and doubts. To say it would raise no questions at all is sheer foolishness.
You want to spread doubt and look for any excuse to find it. I clearly did not interpret what you said as proof, as I said "...they all should be doubted". You are tarring everyone with the same brush.
Take the "gas chamber" in Auschwitz I. If it were admitted that this was not a gas chamber, do you believe this would have no implications whatsoever for any other gas chambers?
If evidence was found, that proved Krema I was never used for gassings, it would spark research to see if the same source of that evidence also had evidence that applied to Birkenau's Kremas. If there was no such evidence, it would then have no implications.
In the case of the Dachau gas chamber, I would say that it was a viable concession for the mainstream to make because it was not, by itself, catastrophically damaging to the Holocaust story. But it still has relevance and that's why revisionists like to bring it up.

The example of the Dachau "gas chamber" calls into question the competence and/or integrity of the American investigators.
The Holocaust was a massive investigation, involving millions of people, over multiple countries, covering many years. Its sheer size meant that it was not just one investigation. It had to be made up of many different investigations, by different investigators, lawyers, historians and criminal investigators. That some US investigators can be called into question over their handling of the Dachau investigation, does not mean you can automatically, with no evidence, call into question all of the other investigations. They are far too disparate and unconnected for that. You do not want to admit that, because it makes the conspiracy you allege all the more far fetched.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2026 11:56 pm
by Archie
Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:51 pm If evidence was found, that proved Krema I was never used for gassings, it would spark research to see if the same source of that evidence also had evidence that applied to Birkenau's Kremas. If there was no such evidence, it would then have no implications.
A vague and not very good answer.

First of all, no, it would not "spark research." It would spark damage control.

On the surface, the Krema I gas chamber does not seem especially important. Only a few thousand people are said to have been gassed there, which is insignificant compared to the six million death toll. You might therefore assume it could potentially be conceded and it wouldn't matter much. But that would be wrong because it ignores the implications, like you have done when you claim that all the gassings claims are completely independent of each other.

One of key Krema I witnesses is Rudolf Hoess. If there were no gassings in Krema I, that means that Hoess included a false description of gassings in Krema in his statements. There is no way to explain that innocuously. It would prove that Hoess gave fraudulent testimony about gas chambers. The credibility of other witnesses like Pery Broad and Filip Mueller would also be demolished. That is why they can never concede Krema I even though it is trivial in terms of body count.
The Holocaust was a massive investigation, involving millions of people, over multiple countries, covering many years. Its sheer size meant that it was not just one investigation. It had to be made up of many different investigations, by different investigators, lawyers, historians and criminal investigators. That some US investigators can be called into question over their handling of the Dachau investigation, does not mean you can automatically, with no evidence, call into question all of the other investigations. They are far too disparate and unconnected for that. You do not want to admit that, because it makes the conspiracy you allege all the more far fetched.
If I may borrow the terminology of the modern left, there are "systemic" issues with these investigations that you are completely ignoring.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2026 12:38 am
by Archie
pilgrimofdark wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:34 pm Thanks for taking on this project, Nessie.

I've mocked up where on Yad Vashem and USHMM they could add these new sections like Archie has done here.

I'm not sure both will do it, but once either of them puts up these sections, I think peole will be excited to start submitting essays.

Just let us know when your very fair reciprocal offer is ready.
We know Nessie doesn't have the clout to influence USHMM. If he talked to Nick (who is a member here) I could imagine an outside possibility that he could negotiate some real estate for us on Holocaust Controversies, but even that seems really unlikely.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2026 8:24 am
by Nessie
Archie wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 11:56 pm
Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 16, 2026 5:51 pm If evidence was found, that proved Krema I was never used for gassings, it would spark research to see if the same source of that evidence also had evidence that applied to Birkenau's Kremas. If there was no such evidence, it would then have no implications.
A vague and not very good answer.

First of all, no, it would not "spark research." It would spark damage control.

On the surface, the Krema I gas chamber does not seem especially important. Only a few thousand people are said to have been gassed there, which is insignificant compared to the six million death toll. You might therefore assume it could potentially be conceded and it wouldn't matter much. But that would be wrong because it ignores the implications, like you have done when you claim that all the gassings claims are completely independent of each other.

One of key Krema I witnesses is Rudolf Hoess. If there were no gassings in Krema I, that means that Hoess included a false description of gassings in Krema in his statements. There is no way to explain that innocuously. It would prove that Hoess gave fraudulent testimony about gas chambers. The credibility of other witnesses like Pery Broad and Filip Mueller would also be demolished. That is why they can never concede Krema I even though it is trivial in terms of body count.
That is your conspiratorial mind at work. What I call research, you call damage control. You are constantly looking for excuses to doubt everything, which is why you believe if evidence came to light that Krema I was never used for gassings, that means Kremas II to V can be assumed to have never been used.

We both know that, because it has already happened, with claims about mass gassings being dismissed for many camps, including Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. Those tasked with investigating the multiple claims about mass murders of Jews, going back to 1941, knew the difference between hearsay and corroborating, primary sourced evidence. They will have been aware that it was unlikely every claim would turn out to be true. You have a simplistic attitude, where it either must have all happened, or, your preference, none of it happened. In another thread, HansHill has confused eyewitness with hearsay evidence. I see that happening constantly, even though it is very easy to determine if someone is an eyewitness or are they repeating what they were told?
The Holocaust was a massive investigation, involving millions of people, over multiple countries, covering many years. Its sheer size meant that it was not just one investigation. It had to be made up of many different investigations, by different investigators, lawyers, historians and criminal investigators. That some US investigators can be called into question over their handling of the Dachau investigation, does not mean you can automatically, with no evidence, call into question all of the other investigations. They are far too disparate and unconnected for that. You do not want to admit that, because it makes the conspiracy you allege all the more far fetched.
If I may borrow the terminology of the modern left, there are "systemic" issues with these investigations that you are completely ignoring.
You accused me of being vague and then you make a vague claim about issues, with no detail. You have zero training and experience in investigations, so quite how you are able to identify systemic issues? Do tell.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2026 12:48 pm
by Nessie
Archie's best case for Holocaust revision, continued;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=443
An extermination program on the scale of millions cannot hinge on the presentation of a relatively tiny collection of stray documents.
It can when much of it was conducted in secret, there was a mass destruction of evidence and you want to pretend there is only a "tiny" collection. When documents are presented here, it instantly results in a complaint about "document dumps". So-called revisionists just do not understand that something which ran for years, across multiple countries, would not have a "smoking gun" document that proves everything.
The documents that aren't there. Given the scale of the extermination program that is alleged and the fact that the Allies conquered Germany and captured a huge volume of documents, we should expect to find considerable documentary evidence for such a program.
Genuine historical revision, produces an evidence chronology of events, that differs from the existing version. Why do so-called revisionists not wonder why, given the scale of the task, there is zero documentary evidence of the Nazis still keeping millions of Jews alive in camps and ghettos in 1944-5?
The gas chambers present an additional documentary problem because once Hitler had decided to exterminate millions of Jews, you would think there would be discussion over the technical and logistical issues involved in such a large scale mass murder project. Because there was no organization on these points, the story is that the technical means were largely improvised with all the details being left to, for example, Rudolf Hoess, the camp commandant of Auschwitz, to work out on the fly.
That is exactly how it worked. The plan was to rid Nazi occupied Europe of Jews. It was up to local governors, how that was done. One of the options, was to send Jews to death camps, located in Poland, which resulted in transports from ghettos and transit camps from all over Europe. Once the plan was set, it was up to Nazis lower down the chain, to organise it, officers such as Eichmann. The AR camps, Chelmno and use of the Birkenau Kremas, for mass gassings, was only ever going to be temporary. So long as the gas chambers worked, it did not matter if they were state of technology, as they would not exist after the Jews had gone. There is a lot of detail about how the gas chambers at Birkenau worked, which so-called revisionists chose to not believe. As if that somehow evidence to prove there were no gas chambers!
Today, it is quite clear how "the hoax" is maintained. In many countries, it is illegal to disbelieve it which is a very clear and explicit enforcement mechanism.
We are supposed to believe that no one has ever whistle blown and publicised evidence of the mass killings being hoaxed, which the internet has made far easier. It is certainly in the interests of the Arab nations, to blow the Holocaust, as a majopr coup over Israel. Somehow, they have not done that.
It is important to note that this would not require much if any elaborate planning. There is no reason to assume for example that the Zionists, the Americans, the British, and the Soviets all got together during the war to work this out.
Note the admission this is an assumption. Archie has no evidence of such cooperation, and he ignores the role of the Nazis. It needed their cooperation as well. They had to pretend they had murdered millions of Jews. Archie also misses out the role of Poland, as even he cannot bring himself to believe that the Poles, from which the vast majority of intelligence on the mass killings came, could hoax the world. Then there is the issue of after the war, when the Soviets and the West became enemies, with no more cooperation.
But where did the Jews go?
Archie cannot answer that question. He makes vague comments about population figures, but he misses out the key year of 1944. According to the historians, the majority of murders had happened by then, with only Hungary and France left with sizeable Jewish populations. If Jews from Estonia to Greece, to Italy to Norway, who had been identified and arrested and sent to ghettos and camps, had not been murdered in their millions, then by 1944, there would be millions in the camps and ghettos. Instead of that, by August 1944, the last ghetto at Lodz had closed and Auschwitz, the largest camp, had a smaller population than it had in 1943.
This is an attempt to shift the burden of proof over to revisionists who are expected to provide a complete accounting of Jewish population movements in order to prove that the Jews survived.
That is an excuse to dodge the burden of proof so-called revisionists have, when they claim millions were not killed. It is blindingly obvious, that to prove someone was not killed, you provide proof of life. No one asks so-called revisionists to provide proof of life for every Jew who had been arrested by 1944. Millions still alive in 1944 would leave a lot of evidence, and there is none. When the camps were liberated, only a few hundred thousand Jews were found alive.

The vast majority of the evidence of dropping populations, comes from the Nazis. It is strong circumstantial evidence, that so-called revisionsits cannot cope with.

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2026 1:38 pm
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 17, 2026 8:24 am In another thread, HansHill has confused eyewitness with hearsay evidence. I see that happening constantly, even though it is very easy to determine if someone is an eyewitness or are they repeating what they were told?
Don't mind me, just cross-posting this here as my name was mentioned. Enjoy!

viewtopic.php?p=21081#p21081

Re: Best case for Holocaust revision.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2026 10:22 pm
by pilgrimofdark
Archie wrote: Sat Jan 17, 2026 12:38 amWe know Nessie doesn't have the clout to influence USHMM.
Yad Vashem and the USHMM would probably opt for the Samson and Masada Options before considering any reciprocal offer. Pointing out the lack of reciprocity was enough.

I see this thread continues its Tango of Death:

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In the absence of incentivization for submissions, a Beginner's Guide FAQ has been substituted for a "best case," receiving approximately 3.5 million F- grades... so far :lol:

Bottom line on this thread:
  • minimum incentive
  • maximum punishment