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Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:30 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 4:52 pm
I had forgotten to go over this. In a link provided by Archie I ran across some testimony about Chelmno, just as expected. That testimony however, was anything but what was expected.
I will link one here;
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... aCA2ejs2bg
On 10 February 1940 I was taken with my parents to Russia, Komi ASSR, Priluzsky District. The reason for our deportation was the arrest of my father on 25 January 1940.
The main description of deaths in the testimony;
...there was a lot of antagonism between us. In summer we had to work from 8.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m., and in winter from 7.00 a.m. to 7.00 p.m., because it was a seasonal work. In summer we had to float what we had felled in winter down the river. In summer, while the men were guiding and floating the timber, the river claimed many lives...
Now, one of the most interesting things about this testimony is how independent it is from the narrative as it is presented today. I personally feel this is representative of what one finds when going back to examine the primary sources.
The 'holocaust' as we have come to know it is the result of a 'choose your own adventure' style of collecting and presenting the various testimonies, generally in snippets, that can be shown together and make sense, so that a kind of narrative tapestry can be created from them.
It is hard to articulate and post this apparent process, and hopefully I've done a decent job as describing it as I see it.
A link to the provided query on the presented webpage;
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/res ... r=_all&p=0
Note the amount of locked content.
What does this testimony have to do with the Holocaust?
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:33 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:30 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 4:52 pm
I had forgotten to go over this. In a link provided by Archie I ran across some testimony about Chelmno, just as expected. That testimony however, was anything but what was expected.
I will link one here;
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... aCA2ejs2bg
On 10 February 1940 I was taken with my parents to Russia, Komi ASSR, Priluzsky District. The reason for our deportation was the arrest of my father on 25 January 1940.
The main description of deaths in the testimony;
...there was a lot of antagonism between us. In summer we had to work from 8.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m., and in winter from 7.00 a.m. to 7.00 p.m., because it was a seasonal work. In summer we had to float what we had felled in winter down the river. In summer, while the men were guiding and floating the timber, the river claimed many lives...
Now, one of the most interesting things about this testimony is how independent it is from the narrative as it is presented today. I personally feel this is representative of what one finds when going back to examine the primary sources.
The 'holocaust' as we have come to know it is the result of a 'choose your own adventure' style of collecting and presenting the various testimonies, generally in snippets, that can be shown together and make sense, so that a kind of narrative tapestry can be created from them.
It is hard to articulate and post this apparent process, and hopefully I've done a decent job as describing it as I see it.
A link to the provided query on the presented webpage;
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/res ... r=_all&p=0
Note the amount of locked content.
What does this testimony have to do with the Holocaust?
This thread is about Chelmno.
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:35 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:33 pm
This thread is about Chelmno.
Well the Chelmno trials, which is Holocaust related.
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:37 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:35 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:33 pm
This thread is about Chelmno.
Well the Chelmno trials, which is Holocaust related.
My apologies Bombsaway, thank you for the attention to detail with regard to this testimony. I had made an assumption it was related to the Chelmno trial, but, on closer inspection it is not. Thank you. I will go press my face back to the stone.
This individual in the testimony was arrested by the Soviet and put in to the labor camp system there, not into a German labor camp, specifically Chelmno.
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:46 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:37 pm
bombsaway wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:35 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:33 pm
This thread is about Chelmno.
Well the Chelmno trials, which is Holocaust related.
My apologies Bombsaway, thank you for the attention to detail with regard to this testimony. I had made an assumption it was related to the Chelmno trial, but, on closer inspection it is not. Thank you. I will go press my face back to the stone.
This individual in the testimony was arrested by the Soviet and put in to the labor camp system there, not into a German labor camp, specifically Chelmno.
There's still some things that are interesting about it. You checked out a random testimony essentially (looking at someone from Chelmno) and got an example of actual resettlement - the mention of children being deported and housed - as well as a testimony critical of the NKVD and Soviets. This doesn't square w revisionist interpretations of the information control capabilities the Soviets have.
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:54 pm
by Stubble
It also exists in isolation currently and I am unfamiliar with any serious historical inquiry into this area.
I do apologize for attributing this to 'the nazi war crime' at Chelmno. For some reason when skimming I missed the part where she described a Soviet prison camp atrocity and assumed, being in a concentration camp and her being from Poland, she had been in the nazi one. That was a bias on my part. I didn't even consider the idea she could have been in a Russian one.
Her and her family were apparently sent to
Vorkuta Corrective Labor Camp
https://allthatsinteresting.com/vorkuta-gulag
I should have been more thorough in my reading.
My apologies.
Still, you raise a valid point about this testimony and its seeming oddity, regarding preconceptions about the event as a whole.
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:58 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:54 pm
My apologies.
You don't need to apologize to me Stubble, I like history and get value out of reading testimonies like the above. Perhaps you should thank me though...
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 6:00 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:58 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:54 pm
My apologies.
You don't need to apologize to me Stubble, I like history and get value out of reading testimonies like the above. Perhaps you should thank me though...
I did, check the bottom of the quoted paragraph
My apologies Bombsaway, thank you for the attention to detail with regard to this testimony. I had made an assumption it was related to the Chelmno trial, but, on closer inspection it is not. Thank you. I will go press my face back to the stone.
Re: The Chelmno Trials
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2025 4:53 am
by Hans
Stubble, the "Chełmno" (German Kulm) mentioned in the cited
testimony is an entirely different place than "Chełmno nad Nerem" (German Kulmhof) where the Nazi extermination camp was located. These places are more than 150 km apart. It's like if you think two different Madisons in the US are the same.