Page 3 of 6

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 12:23 pm
by Stubble
Wetzelrad wrote: Wed Sep 17, 2025 4:25 am
As to why he changed killing methods, it is, as you say, an attempt to conform with other reports. However I think there are other wartime examples of people mixing up cyanide and chlorine, so Wiernik's chlorine story probably came about from rumors that Auschwitz or Majdanek used cyanide dropped through a roof hatch. Whereas the diesel gassing story could have come from rumors about the other Reinhardt camps or gas vans. It would be interesting to see someone map all these narrative evolutions onto a timeline.
PRAVDA was running stories about chlorine gas from quick lime being the instrument of death at the Reinhardt Camps early IIRC.

I think Wiernik originally was running with that.

I'll go back and look. I was sure he put steam in the mix as well. You say no, I trust you.

Regardless, his story evolved not because he misremembered what transpired while he was a Treblinka II for a year, but, because it had too as the older assertions he was supporting were abandoned.

How can any objective person think that you could confuse roof hatches and chlorine with a Soviet diesel engine? How can an honest person make such a mistake.

Wiernik didn't plagiarize the steam chambers report where his map first appeared. No, he likely WROTE IT, because he was a propagandist. A jewish, pro communist propagandist.

His 1935 arrest for communist propaganda is a clue shaggy...

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 2:42 pm
by Nessie
What Wiernik wrote in 1944, showed specialist knowledge, such as naming camp staff, who he later saw again when he gave evidence in court. Do you not think the SS on trial might have something to say about a witness whom none of them recognised?

No evidence has been shown to prove his story was anything other than an engine was used to produce exhaust, the method other eyewitnesses also state was used.

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 3:34 pm
by Keen
Nessie wrote: Wed Sep 17, 2025 2:42 pm No evidence has been shown to prove his story was anything other than an engine was used to produce exhaust
Liar.

No physical evidence of mass graves proves that no mass murder took place.

NO MASS GRAVES - PROVES - NO MASS MURDER, WHICH - PROVES - NO MASS GASSINGS.

Arguing about what kind of gas was used is like arguing about how many animal crackers it takes for a monkey to fly out of your ass.

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 3:40 pm
by Stubble
Keen wrote: Wed Sep 17, 2025 3:34 pm
Nessie wrote: Wed Sep 17, 2025 2:42 pm No evidence has been shown to prove his story was anything other than an engine was used to produce exhaust
Liar.

No physical evidence of mass graves proves that no mass murder took place.

NO MASS GRAVES - PROVES - NO MASS MURDER, WHICH - PROVES - NO MASS GASSINGS.

Arguing about what kind of gas was used is like arguing about how many animal crackers it takes for a monkey to fly out of your ass.
Wait, what?
Stubble wrote: Tue Sep 16, 2025 7:52 pm Page 2 of the deposition, section 2, paragraph leads with 'Treblinka II'. About mid way through.

Thanks Wetzelrad!

Almost forgot;

Image

Image

Image
I understand that the person claiming this doesn't exist might not be able to read Polish, they should be able to read the English posted by Wetzelrad.

The only way to avoid this is to deny reality.

To drive this point home, compare to Wiernick's handwriting here;

Image

'He didn't write that'.

Yes, yes he did...

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 6:19 pm
by Stubble
Wetzelrad wrote: Tue Sep 16, 2025 8:26 pm GFH's description of that file also gives us this tidbit:
In 1945, after the liberation, he redid his drawing of the Treblinka camp’s layout, after the loss of the original drawing he had made in late 1943 - early 1944. (This 1945 version is preserved in the Archives of the Ghetto Fighters’ House).
This gives rise to the possibility of two additional Wiernik maps -- one lost and one made in 1945. It also somewhat complicates the timeline, because in Wiernik's testimony (as quoted by Archie) he claimed he made his sketch in 1944, and it was that 1944 sketch on which he based his model, etc. He didn't mention a later sketch. Possibly he committed perjury.

And indeed, GFH has the 1945 map.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh/notebo ... tem=127292

Image

I will comment on it only minimally. The features appear nearly identical to the one published in 1946. The trees in the south, the well, and the gas chamber layout again point to plagiarization of the 1942 map. The north road curving to the right/east is a new idea and factually wrong. Aerial photos show the road continues in a straight line, parallel to the railline.

The 1946 map is no doubt a copy of the 1945 map. Here is what it looks like if you overlay one on the other.


1945 to 1946 animation.gif


Depending on the circumstances, this could indicate Wiernik used tracing or some other copying technique. Such a technique would also be used by a plagiarist. Maybe we should check to see if he traced anything else. (No, I'm not saying he plagiarized himself, don't put words in my mouth.)

I also notice that the symbols used on these two maps match the symbols of the A Year in Treblinka 1944 map, which is another reason to regard that map as his work.
I may have found the key for this map;

Image

It was in a pdf linked by pilgrimofdark labeled 'Wiernik Estate' under the research sub forum in my post Jienkil Wiernick.

Translation;


Opis planu sytuacyjnego obozu śmierci w Treblince
Description of the Layout of the Death Camp in Treblinka


Camp No. 1

1) Main Gate
Entrance to the camp. Wide, over it two 6-sided pillars with gabled roofs covered in shingles. From the outside of the roof, in the center of the gate, a large floodlight illuminating the outer area of the camp. Under the spotlight, a glass plaque with a large SS emblem. On both sides of the gate, large buildings for guards. The entire gate in the Zakopane style.

2) Guardhouse
Small Zakopane-style building (2 side windows, door in the middle) with a 6-pitched roof covered with shingles. In front, a porch with a hanging roof. The entire house on a foundation. On both sides of the porch, 3 steps.

3) Two Long Barracks
Partially inhabited by Germans. One contains a kitchen and dining room for Germans; the other for Ukrainians. Between the barracks are shower baths (so-called "lit.a") for the Germans.

4) Brick Watchtower

5) Warehouse

6) Cellar, where fats, delicacies, and drinks were stored.

7) Barrack – office and apartment of Hauptsturmführer and his deputies

8) Warehouse – general supplies

9) Two barracks – food storage and bakery

10) Five barracks – quarters for Ukrainians

11) Garden with benches and tables for Germans and Ukrainians.

12) Zoo inside a garden area, fenced with wire mesh. In the center, an oval building covered in birch planks and decorated with various figurines. A dovecote on the roof.

13) Potato cellar with roof and ventilation.

14) Barrack – warehouse of valuables

15) Barrack – workshops. Kitchen and overnight room for prisoners

16) Garage

17) Two barracks:

a) Hairdressing, where women were shaved before suffocation

b) Valuables storage

c) Wardrobe, where victims undressed before going to gas chambers

d) Temporary warehouse for collected food

18) Path used by the victims on their way to the gas chambers, with hands raised

19) Second valuables collection point on the path to the gas chambers, shared with the 2nd camp

20) Ramp, where prisoners were unloaded from transport wagons

21) Warehouse – sorting room for items taken from the murdered

22) Lazaret (field hospital) with a bench where victims sat, faces turned toward a pit. Guard stood behind with a neck shot; victims fell directly into the pit.

Camp No. 2

23) Brick building. Alongside it, a wide corridor. On both sides, 5 gas chambers. In front of each chamber, a ramp.

24) Room with motor used to release gas into the chambers

25) Brick building divided into 3 gas chambers. Attached is a wooden corridor for entering the chambers. A single long ramp leads to the building.

26) Room with another motor for gassing the three chambers. Electrical station powering both Camp 1 and Camp 2.

27) Room where dentists extracted gold teeth from victims after death.

28) Workshops: carpentry, tinsmithing, and shoemaking.

29) Guard towers built from dismantled Jewish homes in Kosów

30) Kitchen for prisoners

31) Barrack – overnight accommodation for prisoners

32) Wooden barrack – laboratory

33) Women's section

34) Laundry and bathhouse for prisoners

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 3:22 pm
by Keen
Nessie wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 10:57 am Your assessment of his testimony, fails to take into account corroboration and known issues with witnesses and is driven by your biased desire to disbelieve.
:lol:

Wiernik:
Work was begun to cremate the dead. It turned out that bodies of women burned more easily than those of men. Accordingly, the bodies of women were used for kindling the fires... The corpses were soaked in gasoline. This entailed considerable expense and the results were inadequate; the male corpses simply would not burn.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So the bodies of jews burnt differently depending on gender? Women would bust into flame (except that their hair was somehow imune from cremation: https://postimg.cc/Xp1Xq5b3 ) by just touching them with a match, and men simply would not burn even after being soaked in gasoline?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nessie, explain the process that was used to soak the liquid male jews in gasoline.

I'll wait.

:lol:

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:43 am
by Archie
No comment from the true believers on the recent revelations that Wiernik was writing communist propaganda tracts before the war? No comments at all? Do you think this improves or harms his credibility?

https://codoh.com/library/document/jank ... pagandist/
viewtopic.php?t=259

Does this shake your faith in Wiernik? Or are you holding firm?

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 6:42 am
by bombsaway
Archie wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:43 am No comment from the true believers on the recent revelations that Wiernik was writing communist propaganda tracts before the war? No comments at all? Do you think this improves or harms his credibility?

https://codoh.com/library/document/jank ... pagandist/
viewtopic.php?t=259

Does this shake your faith in Wiernik? Or are you holding firm?
I find it rich that revisionists think this is a strong point but don't bat an eye at the documented German personnel at Chelmno/ Reinhardt Camps being almost uniformly from T4. Of the many death camp testimonies, how many are evidenced to be by Soviet sympathizers or documented agents (which Wiernik is most definitely not).

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 7:16 am
by Nessie
Archie wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:43 am No comment from the true believers on the recent revelations that Wiernik was writing communist propaganda tracts before the war? No comments at all? Do you think this improves or harms his credibility?

https://codoh.com/library/document/jank ... pagandist/
viewtopic.php?t=259

Does this shake your faith in Wiernik? Or are you holding firm?
I am holding firm, since the majority of his claims, in particular about the main process within TII, are corroborated by multiple pieces of evidence.

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 7:19 am
by Callafangers
bombsaway wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 6:42 am I find it rich that revisionists think this is a strong point but don't bat an eye at the documented German personnel at Chelmno/ Reinhardt Camps being almost uniformly from T4. Of the many death camp testimonies, how many are evidenced to be by Soviet sympathizers or documented agents (which Wiernik is most definitely not).
Medical / administrative facilities close and you're surprised that unemployed staff with medical / administrative experience are moved to another facility that also entails medical / administrative work?
For months, English and American newspapers have been reporting on a new weapon the Soviets supposedly possess to defeat the Germans this winter: typhus. They believe they have found a new "general" who could save them—General Typhus.
[...]
In Germany, all necessary countermeasures were taken in time to prevent this danger. The German border was secured by a network of delousing facilities that acted like a demarcation line. Dr. Conti adds that the threat of typhus has been averted.
[...]
In the incorporated eastern territories, there were 43 cases among Germans and 338 among Jews. In recent weeks, this number has been further reduced. In the metropolis of Berlin, there were only four cases in the entire month of February. It is a clear reality; there is practically no longer any risk of typhus. By eliminating this threat from the East, Germany is once again fulfilling a European responsibility.
"There is no danger of typhus", translated from German. Oesterreichische Volks-Zeitung, März 1942, 1942-03-28, p. 3

Delousing on the border of Germany (and its territories) -- a critical priority necessitating qualified staff. Fortunately, with the end of T-4, staff were readily available.

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 11:52 am
by Nessie
Callafangers wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 7:19 am
bombsaway wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 6:42 am I find it rich that revisionists think this is a strong point but don't bat an eye at the documented German personnel at Chelmno/ Reinhardt Camps being almost uniformly from T4. Of the many death camp testimonies, how many are evidenced to be by Soviet sympathizers or documented agents (which Wiernik is most definitely not).
Medical / administrative facilities close and you're surprised that unemployed staff with medical / administrative experience are moved to another facility that also entails medical / administrative work?
For months, English and American newspapers have been reporting on a new weapon the Soviets supposedly possess to defeat the Germans this winter: typhus. They believe they have found a new "general" who could save them—General Typhus.
[...]
In Germany, all necessary countermeasures were taken in time to prevent this danger. The German border was secured by a network of delousing facilities that acted like a demarcation line. Dr. Conti adds that the threat of typhus has been averted.
[...]
In the incorporated eastern territories, there were 43 cases among Germans and 338 among Jews. In recent weeks, this number has been further reduced. In the metropolis of Berlin, there were only four cases in the entire month of February. It is a clear reality; there is practically no longer any risk of typhus. By eliminating this threat from the East, Germany is once again fulfilling a European responsibility.
"There is no danger of typhus", translated from German. Oesterreichische Volks-Zeitung, März 1942, 1942-03-28, p. 3

Delousing on the border of Germany (and its territories) -- a critical priority necessitating qualified staff. Fortunately, with the end of T-4, staff were readily available.
So, do you support the hypothesis, I first saw from Scott, that TII was a hygiene station?

You do know that not one single person, who worked on Action T4 and then AR, agrees with you?

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 1:52 pm
by Archie
bombsaway wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 6:42 am
Archie wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:43 am No comment from the true believers on the recent revelations that Wiernik was writing communist propaganda tracts before the war? No comments at all? Do you think this improves or harms his credibility?

https://codoh.com/library/document/jank ... pagandist/
viewtopic.php?t=259

Does this shake your faith in Wiernik? Or are you holding firm?
I find it rich that revisionists think this is a strong point but don't bat an eye at the documented German personnel at Chelmno/ Reinhardt Camps being almost uniformly from T4. Of the many death camp testimonies, how many are evidenced to be by Soviet sympathizers or documented agents (which Wiernik is most definitely not).
So ... you don't want talk about it. Interesting.

Re: your clumsy pivot, we've all heard about the euthanasia/AR personnel overlap. But to me that's a circumstantial point and it can't make up for the star witnesses crashing and burning and there being grossly inadequate physical evidence. Muh T4 is just not enough to carry the day. Sorry.

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 1:54 pm
by Archie
Nessie wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 7:16 am
Archie wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:43 am No comment from the true believers on the recent revelations that Wiernik was writing communist propaganda tracts before the war? No comments at all? Do you think this improves or harms his credibility?

https://codoh.com/library/document/jank ... pagandist/
viewtopic.php?t=259

Does this shake your faith in Wiernik? Or are you holding firm?
I am holding firm, since the majority of his claims, in particular about the main process within TII, are corroborated by multiple pieces of evidence.
Your faith in Wiernik is admirable.

"I have not seen such great faith, no, not in all Israel."

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:23 pm
by HansHill
Archie wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 1:54 pm "I have not seen such great faith, no, not in all Israel."
Image

Re: Why did Jankiel Wiernik plagiarize an earlier report?

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2025 2:24 pm
by pilgrimofdark
Did Donat or the American Representation of the General Jewish Workers' Union of Poland explain why they left dozens of phrases and sentences out of their English translations of A Year in Treblinka?

Is a full list of the omitted phrases available?

I've been comparing the Polish and English versions as I have time.

The English editions leave out the "sorting" process at the Warsaw ghetto before deportation.

They also omit the trainload of living disheveled half-naked people traveling north from T-II that is observed at the Treblinka train station.