The CODOH Revisionist Forum

In general, there are two important brick walls that stand in the way of arbitrarily making up victim numbers for atrocity propaganda.

First, show me the bodies. Here the Holocaust story famously fails miserably, and Revisionists generally have a good record in pointing this out.

Second, show me the actual people that are supposed to have been murdered. In this respect revisionists, at least in my impression, have not done so well a job in stressing the fact that here the Holocaust narrative, if possible, fails even harder. This even though it is a great introduction to revisionism to ask people:
-“So you believe the story that 6 million Jews have been killed in those concentration camps? Well, then you certainly won't have any trouble naming a few examples?"
-“Uh, I don’t know, was there not this Anne Frank?”
-“Bzzt, wrong. Yes, Anne Frank was an inmate of that supposed extermination camp Auschwitz, but curiously she was not murdered there. When the Red Army drew near, she was evacuated to Bergen-Belsen where she died shortly before the end of the war because of Typhus. So, the most famous Holocaust victim was not a Holocaust victim!”

The excuse given by Holocaust Affirmers for the curious fact that it is not possible to identify even a single one of those supposed 6 million victims, is that in line with how the Germans were somehow able to organize the Holocaust without documenting anything, that those victims too were "off the books".

Holocaust Affirmers even try a brazen reversal of the standards of evidence: They demand that for every single Jew there has to be presented proof that he or she was not a victim of the Holocaust! This is of course completely absurd. It is as if someone accuses a person of having committed a murder but neither presents a body or any other evidence of a murder having happened nor does even know the identity of the supposed murder victim - but demands, that the accused delivers proof for every inhabitant of the country that he did not murder them!

If there was any truth to the Holocaust claim, there would be a straight forward way to identify them, even without any German records: Collect a list of Jews before the war and another one for after the war. Then compare the two lists: Make a list of those that are in the first list, but not in the second one and are also not in the official lists of the concentration camps of those that died of disease and old age. Of course, nothing like this has ever been done.

The Yad Vashem holocaust museum claims to have a list of "Holocaust victims", but even the most cursory checks show that it is nothing of the sort:

https://codoh.com/library/document/brie ... -of-shoah/

https://codoh.com/library/document/acci ... ad-vashem/

https://codoh.com/library/document/magd ... -database/

https://www.unz.com/estriker/the-yad-va ... -lectures/

From the link;

https://codoh.com/library/document/brie ... -of-shoah/

"The most important name registries (Germany, France, Belgium, Theresienstadt, Netherlands) contain a total amount of about 280,000 names....For the eastern camps, there is a deportation list with about 34,000 names of Dutch Jews to Sobibór (already included in the above figure of 280,000). Putting together all the other transport lists, it’s possible to get 300,000, up to 350,000 names..."

The likelihood of a name being known, is down to how detailed the identification, registration and arrest of a nation's Jews were. The Dutch and Germans were particularly thorough. France was less cooperative. Go east and in many cases, Jews were already identifiable and separated from the local population, such as at Riga, so they were arrested without identification and registration. In Latvia, more detail is known about the German Jews transported to Riga, than the Riga Jews.

The majority of Jews in Europe lived in eastern Europe and the largest population was in Poland. Jews in the west were more integrated into the local population. They were rarely ghettoised, and many dressed and acted so they were not distinctive. The western countries also had more developed bureaucracies and their Jewish citizens would need to be identified, arrested and transported east. Hence, names are more common in the west of Europe, than the east.

When 34,131 Jews are transported from Westerbork in the Netherlands, to Sobibor, in 1943, and at the end of the war, only 18 people return, that is circumstantial evidence of mass killings taking place. Before revisionist false claims are made, I would emphasise it is circumstantial evidence, not proof. The circumstances of so few returning, fits with the evidence of mass killings at Sobibor and A-B.

The evidence to identify the victims of the Holocaust, is variously from the evidence of identification, registration, arrest and transportation of Jews to places, where there is evidence of mass killings. The German Jews, named on transports to Riga, were shot at the forest site at Rumbula. The Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor were gassed there. That evidence of their existence, in any records, ends at those places, is also part of the circumstantial evidence they were killed. That they drop off the records the Nazis kept of who was in what camp or ghetto, fits with the circumstances they were killed there.

In Poland and the rest of the east, there is less documentary evidence, but there is witness and physical evidence. Every village, town and city in Poland, saw its local Jewish population arrested, rounded up and sent to ghettos and camps. Their homes and property were seized and sold, with many local Poles buying such. Those Polish witnesses report that entire populations of Jews would disappear once arrested and they would never be seen again. At the end of the war, it was common for no surviving Jews to return. As with the German and Dutch Jews, the circumstantial evidence of disappearance, fits with the evidence of mass murder.

https://codoh.com/library/document/acci ... ad-vashem/

"Accidental Family Reunion at Yad Vashem...An extended family consisting of two nuclear families of Jews from Warsaw, the Bornsteins and the Bands, happened to be separated during the war, with each completely losing track of the other and generally assuming the worst."

That is more likely to happen with Polish, than Dutch Jews, as Dutch record keeping was far better.

This article highlights some errors in the database, which is inevitable.

"“Magda Goebbels”… in the Yad Vashem Database"

https://codoh.com/library/document/magd ... -database/

It also reveals that pranksters were responsible for making up names and entering them, "On March 22, 2015, hence three days after we reported out prank of having inserted Magda Goebbels into Yad Vashem’s database, this entry was removed..."
It is unreasonable to expect a database of millions of entries, to be fully accurate, so highlighting errors, especially deliberate deceptions, is dishonest, and wrong to suggest that there are significant issues with the database as a whole.

Holocaust Affirmers even try a brazen reversal of the standards of evidence: They demand that for every single Jew there has to be presented proof that he or she was not a victim of the Holocaust!

Revisionists hate being asked to evidence millions of Jews still alive, in camps and ghettos in 1944, which would evidentially and logically happen, if millions had not been killed. The demand is not to evidence every single Jew, the demand is to evidence large scale survival, which would be easy, as keeping millions of alive in camps and ghettos in 1944 would have been resource intensive. Just finding enough guards would have been a huge issue, as every man was needed to fight the advancing Soviets and Western Allies.

This is the best examples of why revisionism is mis-named. There is no revision of the history. No investigation has been made into identifying the Berlin department and senior Nazis responsible for accommodating and guarding so many people. The vast majority of Jews in the camps, in 1944, fell under SS responsibility. There is no evidence from SS archives or witnesses of such a huge undertaking. Operation Todt, the use of forced labour, also generates no such evidence. When the Lodz ghetto closed in 1944, that left no ghettos, and there is no regional command evidence, in particular from the General Government, of the resources need to maintain any ghettos. All of those potential sources of evidence of millions of Jews still alive, and no evidence is found.

Revisionists try to circumvent that issue, by leaving a chronological gap, and jumping forward to the arrival of the Soviets in the east, suggesting, without evidence, that the Soviets found millions of Jews. They also ignore there is evidence that the Nazis matched west with their prisoners, to be liberated by the Western Allies and that those liberations were in the tens of thousands, not millions. The latter part of 1944 and 1945, to liberation, is left alone, when so-called revisionists are revising the history of the Holocaust.

Every country occupied by or aligned to the Nazis, has national records, which record drops in their Jewish population, from pre-war censuses, to the documentation generated as Jews were identified, registered and arrested, to post-war returns. The missing people go onto the database. There are two notable exceptions, Denmark and Finland. The vast majority of Danish Jews were initially protected from arrest by the wartime Danish Government. When, in 1943, arrest became imminent, there was a mass escape to neutral Sweden. At the end of the war, the vast majority of Danish Jews could be accounted for. Finland also refused to cooperate with Nazi requests to identify, register and arrest its Jewish citizens. The Fins had aligned with the Nazis, against the Soviets, fighting off a Soviet invasion and then in 1944, fighting off the Nazis whom they had been fighting with.

Jews in Free France and Budapest, also had high rates of survival, due to local protection which the Nazi occupiers could not overcome. When Jews survived, they left evidence of their survival and existence during 1944. For millions of Jews to have survived, with no evidence of their existence, is an impossibility. Revisionists never look at the impossibility of mass survival with no evidence, in anything like the same level of detail they put into claiming mass killings were an impossibility.

Nothing in your muddled text dump is in any way relevant. To try to present the fact that many Jews did not return to the places they were before as evidence that they were killed, is ridiculous. We know for a fact that large numbers of European Jews after WW2 went not back to where they came from but to other places, in particular the USA and Palestine. Of course these had to come from somewhere. Duh!

It seems that I have to remind you once more that I have a policy of focused on-topic discussion. The topic of this thread is the refusal to actually identify Holocaust victims as important evidence that the Holocaust did not happen. So any claims of Holocaust victims that are not identified are off topic here, or at least only on topic insofar as they are further evidence against the existence of the Holocaust. I note that in most of your allegations of supposedly "missing" Jews they are not only are not identified, there are not even overall numbers!

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 7:40 am It is unreasonable to expect a database of millions of entries, to be fully accurate, so highlighting errors, especially deliberate deceptions, is dishonest, and wrong to suggest that there are significant issues with the database as a whole.

It is a list with most of the entries duplicates and fakes and, insofar as the entries are real, consists simply of Jews that lived in Europe during the time of WW2 who might or might not have been in a concentration camp and who might or might not have died there. If you complain that it is "unreasonable" to expect them to actually compile a list of those elusive Holocaust victims, well, no, it simply means that you are admitting that they don't exist.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 7:40 amRevisionists hate being asked to evidence millions of Jews still alive, in camps and ghettos in 1944, which would evidentially and logically happen, if millions had not been killed.

Then point us to a list of those "millions". I doubt that you can, given the fact that you don't even manage to clear the low hurdle of giving us a concrete overall number.

When Mrs Nessie talks of millions of jews if alive at the end of the war would have been in camps and ghettos she talks absolute rubbish. She starts from the top and works down whereas we start from the baseline and build evidence and natural processes from there.

So Mrs Nessie and all the other believers cannot get through this belief they fervently hold that 6m jews actually died because if they were not around at the end they must have died. This is an absurd way to look at things.

It has always been my belief that there were never 6m jews under German control or in the camps and ghettos. We know that the 6m figure has been floating around in the feeble minds of jews and in particular zionist jews since 1842 I believe. It is a talismanic figure, no more, no less. It is not real...

If you wanted to be extremely silly you would take the Wannsee conference figure of 11m but that of course includes countries and regions which were never ever under German control.

In the last 6 months or so of the war I doubt there were even 1m jews in the camp system and most of them then walked away perfectly well. In my view there were fewer than 2m jews ever in camps and that figure varied greatly through the period as some died, some were released, many were sent into exile if you like and none were gassed.

I know for a fact that many jews left the european and in particular, German, regions before the war yet have been calculated into the death figures of the holocaust.

I gave this story some years ago on the last Codoh iteration but it is well worth repeating here. My ex wife had an auntie who lived from about 1955 in Toronto, Canada. She would often visit us but we never met her husband until he came over after he was well retired in about 1999. They had not had children. He had been quite successful in the tech world and they had enjoyed a happy and moderately generous lifestyle.

They came to our house on this particular trip and I found him to be an engaging and pleasant chap. I had no inkling he was jewish. They did not have a jewish family name. One evening over a couple of beers I got to ask him about how they met and their early life together in Canada. He then opened up and told me this amazing story. He was born in Munich in about 1929 into a middle class jewish family. In the early to mid thirties they realised the gig was up and the whole family which I think amounted to about a dozen people left for the UK. After the war they left for Canada and lived safely and happily there ever after. But amazingly he told me that on a trip back to Munich on business he went to the holocaust museum or some office where records were kept and staggeringly found that his whole family were listed as holocaust victims because they had never been seen alive again. Not a shred of evidence to prove this but the assumption was made. That is how you get to a much higher death toll than reality would have shown.

But there's more... I started to discuss the jewish issues in Germany and the holocaust all of which he was happy to discuss with me and he told me to ignore the figures because there were many many jewish families in the same situation and boat as his. Left Europe, lived safely and happily but were counted as victims in the holocaust because they weren't in 17 Friedrich Strasse in May 1945.

When you start at the bottom and work upwards to see a reliable death figure and then add in the drip drip effect of jews being expelled and leaving of their own will plus the natural death toll during that 8 years or so, and that pesky Iron Curtain, Cold War situation where no info came out you can see that Mrs Nessie has no clue, no idea of what she speaks.

PangaeaProxima wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 3:33 pm Nothing in your muddled text dump is in any way relevant. To try to present the fact that many Jews did not return to the places they were before as evidence that they were killed, is ridiculous. We know for a fact that large numbers of European Jews after WW2 went not back to where they came from but to other places, in particular the USA and Palestine. Of course these had to come from somewhere. Duh!

Unless revisionists can evidence millions of Jews, still alive in 1945, as displaced persons, seeking new homes, then their absence is circumstantial evidence, as it chronologically and logically fits with the evidence they were killed.

It seems that I have to remind you once more that I have a policy of focused on-topic discussion. The topic of this thread is the refusal to actually identify Holocaust victims as important evidence that the Holocaust did not happen. So any claims of Holocaust victims that are not identified are off topic here, or at least only on topic insofar as they are further evidence against the existence of the Holocaust. I note that in most of your allegations of supposedly "missing" Jews they are not only are not identified, there are not even overall numbers!

You need to prove there has been a refusal to identify Holocaust victims.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 7:40 am It is unreasonable to expect a database of millions of entries, to be fully accurate, so highlighting errors, especially deliberate deceptions, is dishonest, and wrong to suggest that there are significant issues with the database as a whole.

It is a list with most of the entries duplicates and fakes and, insofar as the entries are real, consists simply of Jews that lived in Europe during the time of WW2 who might or might not have been in a concentration camp and who might or might not have died there. If you complain that it is "unreasonable" to expect them to actually compile a list of those elusive Holocaust victims, well, no, it simply means that you are admitting that they don't exist.

You need to prove that " most of the entries duplicates and fakes" and that the names on the lists did not die, where the lists stated they died.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 7:40 amRevisionists hate being asked to evidence millions of Jews still alive, in camps and ghettos in 1944, which would evidentially and logically happen, if millions had not been killed.

Then point us to a list of those "millions". I doubt that you can, given the fact that you don't even manage to clear the low hurdle of giving us a concrete overall number.

I would point you to the national archives of Germany and every country they occupied or were aligned with, and the archives at Bad Arolsen for the lists of the millions killed.

It is up to you to provide a concrete number of millions still alive in 1944 and liberated in 1945, which would chronologically follow from the arrested Jews not having been murdered.

PangaeaProxima wrote: ↑Fri Apr 04, 2025 9:46 pm In general, there are two important brick walls that stand in the way of arbitrarily making up victim numbers for atrocity propaganda.

First, show me the bodies. Here the Holocaust story famously fails miserably, and Revisionists generally have a good record in pointing this out.

Revisionists capitalise on the way the Nazis disposed of the bodies, in unidentified mass graves, with no records, where many were subsequently exhumed and the corpses cremated, or in the many cremation ovens at the camps. That prevents large scale exhumations, to show mass graves, as found at Katyn.

Revisionists then make arbitrary declarations about the huge areas of disturbed ground found at the AR camps and Chelmno, that contain and mix of wood ash, cremains and larger identifiable human remains. They apply the illogical argument from incredulity, that those places cannot possibly contain the remains of around 1.5 to 2 million people. The 1.1 million killed at A-B were disposed of in nearby fields and local rivers, as mass graves were never dig there, cremations happened from the beginning.

Of course revisionists then hate to be asked the same question, show me the bodies, when it comes to Jews still alive during the war, which would clearly be the case if they had not been murdered.

Second, show me the actual people that are supposed to have been murdered. In this respect revisionists, at least in my impression, have not done so well a job in stressing the fact that here the Holocaust narrative, if possible, fails even harder. This even though it is a great introduction to revisionism to ask people:
-“So you believe the story that 6 million Jews have been killed in those concentration camps? Well, then you certainly won't have any trouble naming a few examples?"
-“Uh, I don’t know, was there not this Anne Frank?”
-“Bzzt, wrong. Yes, Anne Frank was an inmate of that supposed extermination camp Auschwitz, but curiously she was not murdered there. When the Red Army drew near, she was evacuated to Bergen-Belsen where she died shortly before the end of the war because of Typhus. So, the most famous Holocaust victim was not a Holocaust victim!”

The Dutch archives for Westerbork, contain the names of the 34,131 Jews transported to Sobibor in 1943. Of those, only 18 are evidenced to have returned to the Netherlands after the war. Anne Frank was on the last transport out of the Netherlands in 1944 and went to A-B, as gassing operations were ending. The SS needed workers, so Frank was put to work. She was then part of the death marches west, as the Nazis fled the Soviets. She died of typhus in Bergen-Belsen, where c60,000 prisoners were finally liberated, in the largest single liberation of the war. Many of those prisoners were not Jewish, so already, in 1945, it was clear to the Allies that millions of Jews were missing. From Norway to Greece, national governments reported very few of the Jews that the Nazis had arrested and transported to camps and ghettos, returning.
Displace persons agencies, who dealt with millions of people, reported only a few hundred thousand were Jewish. No country outwith Europe reported a postwar large influx of European Jews.

We know what happened to Frank, because of the evidence from Nazi documents and witnesses who knew her. For many, the evidence of their existence after they were arrested, ends at specific camps, such as Sobibor.

The excuse given by Holocaust Affirmers for the curious fact that it is not possible to identify even a single one of those supposed 6 million victims, is that in line with how the Germans were somehow able to organize the Holocaust without documenting anything, that those victims too were "off the books".

The only "book" that is missing, is a record that states "5th March 1943, list of 1105 Dutch Jews gassed" from the archive of Sobibor camp. That is because if the camp staff did keep such records, they then destroyed them, when the camp was closed down and razed to the ground.

What historians have, is the names of the people on the transport of 1105 Jews, that left Westerbork on March 2rd. They can then track records and find that no one on that list then appears anywhere else, in a camp, or liberated or returning to the Netherlands in 1945.

The next transport on the 10th March, has 13 people who can be tracked and survived the war. They were selected for work on arriving at Sobibor and transported to A-B, where they were registered to work there. Details of the transports and survivors here;

https://www.sobibor.org/en/the-nineteen-transports/

It is the sudden disappearance from records, of Jews arrested by the Nazis, that provides circumstantial evidence those people died. It is the evidence of mass gassings at Sobibor, that proves they died in gas chambers.

Holocaust Affirmers even try a brazen reversal of the standards of evidence: They demand that for every single Jew there has to be presented proof that he or she was not a victim of the Holocaust! This is of course completely absurd. It is as if someone accuses a person of having committed a murder but neither presents a body or any other evidence of a murder having happened nor does even know the identity of the supposed murder victim - but demands, that the accused delivers proof for every inhabitant of the country that he did not murder them!

It is not absurd to ask for evidence of thousands of Dutch Jews still alive in 1944, if they had not been killed in 1943. It is the revisionist claim they were not mass murdered at Sobibor, so where is the evidence to prove they were alive?

If there was any truth to the Holocaust claim, there would be a straight forward way to identify them, even without any German records: Collect a list of Jews before the war and another one for after the war. Then compare the two lists: Make a list of those that are in the first list, but not in the second one and are also not in the official lists of the concentration camps of those that died of disease and old age. Of course, nothing like this has ever been done.

The Dutch archives have lists of Jews arrested and sent to Westerbork, the transports that left the camp and who returned in 1945. Nazi camp archives have the names of Dutch Jews were registered at A-B, or other camps, so they can be tracked. That provides evidence of who was arrested in the Netherlands, who was sent to what camp, who was registered as a prisoner at what camp and who was liberated.

The elephant in the room for revisionists, is the 34,000 who went to Sobibor and then all evidence of their existence ends.

The Yad Vashem holocaust museum claims to have a list of "Holocaust victims", but even the most cursory checks show that it is nothing of the sort:

https://codoh.com/library/document/brie ... -of-shoah/

https://codoh.com/library/document/acci ... ad-vashem/

https://codoh.com/library/document/magd ... -database/

https://www.unz.com/estriker/the-yad-va ... -lectures/

A handful of examples of errors, some of which were deliberately created as pranks, is not evidence to prove the entire database is flawed.

borjastick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:04 am But there's more... I started to discuss the jewish issues in Germany and the holocaust all of which he was happy to discuss with me and he told me to ignore the figures because there were many many jewish families in the same situation and boat as his. Left Europe, lived safely and happily but were counted as victims in the holocaust because they weren't in 17 Friedrich Strasse in May 1945.

I see, I should have better written "It is a list with most of the entries duplicates and fakes and, insofar as the entries are real, consists simply of Jews that during the time of WW2 might or might not have been in the German sphere of influence, who might or might not have been in a concentration camp and who might or might not have died there."

I had once a discussion with my mother about Jews that had lived in the rural area where she was born. She insisted, that the fact that they didn't return after the WW2 must mean that they had been killed. But then she had to admit that the great majority of those trusty soil bound Jews had already emigrated before the war, a large part even before the National Socialists gained power. Most Jews simply don't have much attachment to their host countries, as can be seen by the fact that 90 percent of all Jews in the area of the former Soviet Union have left in the last few decades.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amYou need to prove there has been a refusal to identify Holocaust victims.

You, for instance, certainly refuse. You vaguely talk about unspecified "millions" but refuse to identify even a single concrete person.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 am You need to prove that " most of the entries duplicates and fakes" and that the names on the lists did not die, where the lists stated they died.

It is not my problem that you are ignoring the articles that I link to. They contain examples for supposed "Holocaust Victims" that
- were very much alive after the war
- were counted several times
- were claimed to have been killed in a certain place, but were actually transported on to somewhere else
I don't see it very helpful to bloat my posts with extensive copy&pastes from those articles, but I will do so if you continue to play dumb.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 am A handful of examples of errors, some of which were deliberately created as pranks, is not evidence to prove the entire database is flawed.

That a very obvious prank was not caught is proof that no check of the correctness of the entries is done. Fact is, that in every part of the list that was looked into, massive errors were found. It is statistically extremely unlikely, that all these are somehow non typical unfortunate accidents. But I have an idea: Point us to a specific part of the list that you consider to be legit. If there are errors found also, will you then concede?

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amThat prevents large scale exhumations, to show mass graves, as found at Katyn.

The fact that you can find the mass graves for Soviet mass killings but not those for the Holocaust has the banal reason that the former were real, whereas the Holocaust was not. But anyway, this is off topic in this thread.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amShe was then part of the death marches west, as the Nazis fled the Soviets

Well, she was certainly alive after this "death march". Of course it was bad, like it was for those millions of Germans that were fleeing the raping and murdering Soviet hordes (You consider them of course "Noble Liberators"). Actually, I read that some of the sick Auschwitz inmates that were to be left behind (Like the father of Anne Frank was) voluntarily opted to go with the evacuees rather than taking their chances with the Red Army.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 am No country outwith Europe reported a postwar large influx of European Jews.

Last I checked, the USA and Palestine are outside Europe. Of course, given your refusal to give any numbers it is not clear what you mean with "large".

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amThe elephant in the room for revisionists, is the 34,000 who went to Sobibor and then all evidence of their existence ends.

Given the fact that it is not difficult to find examples of claimed "dead enders" to have been transported on (see above) I very much doubt the "all evidence of their existence ends" claim. But even if revisionist researchers were to track down every one of those allegedly disappeared, what would have been gained? It would not reduce the 6 million Holocaust claim any more than the reduction of the Auschwitz death count from 4 to 1 million reduced it by even a single person. This brings us back to the basic absurd reversal of evidence: that the only possible way to contradict the Holocaust narrative is to prove for every single Jew existing at the time of WW2 that he or she was not a Holocaust victim.

PangaeaProxima wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 5:03 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amYou need to prove there has been a refusal to identify Holocaust victims.

You, for instance, certainly refuse. You vaguely talk about unspecified "millions" but refuse to identify even a single concrete person.

I have suggested the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 am You need to prove that " most of the entries duplicates and fakes" and that the names on the lists did not die, where the lists stated they died.

It is not my problem that you are ignoring the articles that I link to. They contain examples for supposed "Holocaust Victims" that
- were very much alive after the war
- were counted several times
- were claimed to have been killed in a certain place, but were actually transported on to somewhere else
I don't see it very helpful to bloat my posts with extensive copy&pastes from those articles, but I will do so if you continue to play dumb.

A tiny number of examples, some of which have been deliberate hoaxing, is not evidence to prove the millions recorded on the databases are all suspect.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 am A handful of examples of errors, some of which were deliberately created as pranks, is not evidence to prove the entire database is flawed.

That a very obvious prank was not caught is proof that no check of the correctness of the entries is done. Fact is, that in every part of the list that was looked into, massive errors were found. It is statistically extremely unlikely, that all these are somehow non typical unfortunate accidents. But I have an idea: Point us to a specific part of the list that you consider to be legit. If there are errors found also, will you then concede?

How about the 34,131 Jews transported from Westerbork to Sobibor. If an error is found with a few of those names, that is not proof the entire database is incorrect. It is perfectly normal for any such database to contain errors.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amThat prevents large scale exhumations, to show mass graves, as found at Katyn.

The fact that you can find the mass graves for Soviet mass killings but not those for the Holocaust has the banal reason that the former were real, whereas the Holocaust was not. But anyway, this is off topic in this thread.

It proves the Nazis were actively covering up their criminal activity, whereas the Soviets had to take retrospective action, which ultimately failed.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amShe was then part of the death marches west, as the Nazis fled the Soviets

Well, she was certainly alive after this "death march". Of course it was bad, like it was for those millions of Germans that were fleeing the raping and murdering Soviet hordes (You consider them of course "Noble Liberators"). Actually, I read that some of the sick Auschwitz inmates that were to be left behind (Like the father of Anne Frank was) voluntarily opted to go with the evacuees rather than taking their chances with the Red Army.

The point being, alive people leave evidence they are alive. There is no evidence of millions of Jews arrested by the Nazis, 1939-1944, still alive in 1944.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 am No country outwith Europe reported a postwar large influx of European Jews.

Last I checked, the USA and Palestine are outside Europe. Of course, given your refusal to give any numbers it is not clear what you mean with "large".

By large, I obviously mean millions, since you deny the Nazis mass murdered 5 to 6 million Jews. Millions of Jews pouring into the USA and Palestine in 1945-46, would have left a lot of evidence.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 7:37 amThe elephant in the room for revisionists, is the 34,000 who went to Sobibor and then all evidence of their existence ends.

Given the fact that it is not difficult to find examples of claimed "dead enders" to have been transported on (see above) I very much doubt the "all evidence of their existence ends" claim. But even if revisionist researchers were to track down every one of those allegedly disappeared, what would have been gained? It would not reduce the 6 million Holocaust claim any more than the reduction of the Auschwitz death count from 4 to 1 million reduced it by even a single person. This brings us back to the basic absurd reversal of evidence: that the only possible way to contradict the Holocaust narrative is to prove for every single Jew existing at the time of WW2 that he or she was not a Holocaust victim.

If a revisionist tracked down even a majority, say 20k of the 34k Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor, proving they had left the camp, it would blow a massive hole in the mass murder claim. You do not need to prove what happened to every single Jew, just a reasonable majority.

It is not a reversal of evidence, to ask for evidence of what you claim to have happened, which is those Dutch Jews were not gassed at Sobibor and they left the camp.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am
A tiny number of examples, some of which have been deliberate hoaxing, is not evidence to prove the millions recorded on the databases are all suspect.

If it were true no need for a single hoax.

How about the 34,131 Jews transported from Westerbork to Sobibor.

Here is what happened

Lets see what the Dutch people (1943) have to say about this:

• Alex Cohen:...17 March
  The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp.
• Judith Eliazar:..10 March
  Together with the other selected women Judith and Bertha were taken to Lublin-Majdanek.
• Jules Schelvis:...1 June
  From among the men a group of eighty young men were selected for, so it seemed, the Jewish camp police and Schelvis managed to get included in the group. As it turned out the men were chosen to work in a nearby camp
• Joseph Wins..11 May
  who were taken from his transport to be brought to the nearby Dorohucza labour camp.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 12:34 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am
A tiny number of examples, some of which have been deliberate hoaxing, is not evidence to prove the millions recorded on the databases are all suspect.

If it were true no need for a single hoax.

How about the 34,131 Jews transported from Westerbork to Sobibor.

Here is what happened

Lets see what the Dutch people (1943) have to say about this:

• Alex Cohen:...17 March
  The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp.
• Judith Eliazar:..10 March
  Together with the other selected women Judith and Bertha were taken to Lublin-Majdanek.
• Jules Schelvis:...1 June
  From among the men a group of eighty young men were selected for, so it seemed, the Jewish camp police and Schelvis managed to get included in the group. As it turned out the men were chosen to work in a nearby camp
• Joseph Wins..11 May
  who were taken from his transport to be brought to the nearby Dorohucza labour camp.

That is half of the transports and only accounts for a small proportion of the people on each transport. Those people can then be tracked, as the camps and further transports kept records. The rest disappear from all records and any proof of life.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am A tiny number of examples, some of which have been deliberate hoaxing, is not evidence to prove the millions recorded on the databases are all suspect.

Every part that has been looked at, had major defects. There is no reason to assume those parts that have not yet been examined are any better. And those are often huge:

Thus, we have to say that the 52,000 Berlin Jews were included three times on average.

https://codoh.com/library/document/gass ... in-minsk/

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am By large, I obviously mean millions, since you deny the Nazis mass murdered 5 to 6 million Jews.

You can't claim that there are "missing" Jews if you don't know how many there were. How many Jews were there before the Holocaust, how many were killed and how many were there after? I note that you weasel around committing to "5 to 6 million" missing Jews, but only vaguely say "millions". The reason is of course, that you know very well, that the evidence does not support that there were even "5 to 6 million" Jews in all of German controlled Europe to start with - leave alone "missing".

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am Millions of Jews pouring into the USA and Palestine in 1945-46, would have left a lot of evidence.

As borjastick pointed out, a large part left already before the war and how do you come to the strange idea that this left no evidence? In particular in Palestine, were the masses of Jewish immigrants allowed the Zionists to launch a murderous war against the Palestinians. Very obvious "evidence" I would say!

PangaeaProxima wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:19 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am By large, I obviously mean millions, since you deny the Nazis mass murdered 5 to 6 million Jews.

You can't claim that there are "missing" Jews if you don't know how many there were. How many Jews were there before the Holocaust, how many were killed and how many were there after? I note that you weasel around committing to "5 to 6 million" missing Jews, but only vaguely say "millions". The reason is of course, that you know very well, that the evidence does not support that there were even "5 to 6 million" Jews in all of German controlled Europe to start with.

Report to Himmler from 1943, list Jewish populations by region;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

The first figure is the Jewish population in censuses from the 1930s, the second in 1943.

Altreich, 502,799 to 51,000.
Austria, 191,481 to 8,000.
Czech Protectorate, 356,830 to 16,000

That is huge drops. The report continues;

"The Jewish population of the Reich is related to the length of time since the seizure of power in the different territories. This marks the beginning of the great Jewish exodus. Up to then there had even been an increase in the Jewish population in some territories as a result of their exodus from territories already occupied by the Reich.
At the time of assumption of power and on December 31 1942 the Jewish population was...606,103. That was a drop from 3,719,000.

"The Jewish population of the extended German Reich was reduced by 3.1 million between 1933 and 1943 under the leadership of National Socialism."

That was up to January 1943, so there was over 2 years to go, with the AR camps still operational and Auschwitz yet to take the majority of its transports, and no operational gas chambers in a Birkenau Krema.

It is you who knows fine well that the Nazis and the countries they occupied or were aligned to, were recording huge drops in their Jewish populations.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:21 am Millions of Jews pouring into the USA and Palestine in 1945-46, would have left a lot of evidence.

As borjastick pointed out, a large part left already before the war and how do you come to the strange idea that this left no evidence? In particular in Palestine, were the masses of Jewish immigrants allowed the Zionists to launch a murderous war against the Palestinians. Very obvious "evidence" I would say!

The millions who escaped before the war, or managed to emigrate, or fled with the Soviets, are not part of the figures that you are trying to minimise and dodge. I have not said that left no evidence, you just made that up. Of course, it left evidence, people alive leave evidence. The issue you have is that millions of the Jews the Nazis arrested 1939 to 1944, for whom there was evidence of their existence, that evidence ends at an AR camp, Chelmno or A-B, or at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:52 pm Report to Himmler from 1943, list Jewish populations by region;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

The first figure is the Jewish population in censuses from the 1930s, the second in 1943.

Altreich, 502,799 to 51,000.
Austria, 191,481 to 8,000.
Czech Protectorate, 356,830 to 16,000

That is huge drops. The report continues;

"The Jewish population of the Reich is related to the length of time since the seizure of power in the different territories. This marks the beginning of the great Jewish exodus. Up to then there had even been an increase in the Jewish population in some territories as a result of their exodus from territories already occupied by the Reich.
At the time of assumption of power and on December 31 1942 the Jewish population was...606,103. That was a drop from 3,719,000.

"The Jewish population of the extended German Reich was reduced by 3.1 million between 1933 and 1943 under the leadership of National Socialism."

That was up to January 1943, so there was over 2 years to go, with the AR camps still operational and Auschwitz yet to take the majority of its transports, and no operational gas chambers in a Birkenau Krema.

It is you who knows fine well that the Nazis and the countries they occupied or were aligned to, were recording huge drops in their Jewish populations.

How does that help your case at all? Actually, the fact that the Jewish population numbers had already dropped so much at a point in time when the alleged mass killing was only starting, only supports that they had emigrated.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:52 pm The millions who escaped before the war, or managed to emigrate, or fled with the Soviets, are not part of the figures that you are trying to minimise and dodge.

It is impossible for me to "dodge" these figures, since you steadfastly refuse to give them to me. And we all know why you won't give them:

The reason is of course, that you know very well, that the evidence does not support that there were even "5 to 6 million" Jews in all of German controlled Europe to start with - leave alone "missing".

PangaeaProxima wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 7:41 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:52 pm Report to Himmler from 1943, list Jewish populations by region;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

The first figure is the Jewish population in censuses from the 1930s, the second in 1943.

Altreich, 502,799 to 51,000.
Austria, 191,481 to 8,000.
Czech Protectorate, 356,830 to 16,000

That is huge drops. The report continues;

"The Jewish population of the Reich is related to the length of time since the seizure of power in the different territories. This marks the beginning of the great Jewish exodus. Up to then there had even been an increase in the Jewish population in some territories as a result of their exodus from territories already occupied by the Reich.
At the time of assumption of power and on December 31 1942 the Jewish population was...606,103. That was a drop from 3,719,000.

"The Jewish population of the extended German Reich was reduced by 3.1 million between 1933 and 1943 under the leadership of National Socialism."

That was up to January 1943, so there was over 2 years to go, with the AR camps still operational and Auschwitz yet to take the majority of its transports, and no operational gas chambers in a Birkenau Krema.

It is you who knows fine well that the Nazis and the countries they occupied or were aligned to, were recording huge drops in their Jewish populations.

How does that help your case at all? Actually, the fact that the Jewish population numbers had already dropped so much at a point in time when the alleged mass killing was only starting, only supports that they had emigrated.

You are revealling your ignorance of the history of events. The mass killings started in 1941, with Operation Barbarossa, the invason of the Soviet Union and the Einsatzgruppen. By January 1943, the AR camps at Sobibor, TII and Belzec, between them, had been operational for about 20 months.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 6:52 pm The millions who escaped before the war, or managed to emigrate, or fled with the Soviets, are not part of the figures that you are trying to minimise and dodge.

It is impossible for me to "dodge" these figures, since you steadfastly refuse to give them to me. And we all know why you won't give them:

The reason is of course, that you know very well, that the evidence does not support that there were even "5 to 6 million" Jews in all of German controlled Europe to start with - leave alone "missing".

I have literally just given you figures of the number of Jews in Nazi controlled Europe and that already, by the start of 1943 they had dropped by 3.1 million.