Jacob Bronowski - Ascent Of Man Deception
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 12:01 pm
Splitting this off from the "Carl Sagan" thread as discussed in that thread.
Context:
On page 4 of that thread, located here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=308&start=45 , Dr SanityCheck took issue with my assertion
His challenge, verbalised as:
To support my claim, I presented a video clip of Jacob Bronowski asserting the 4 Million Hoax on BBC in his "Ascent of Man" project, as this clip covers every category of my claim: "State Institutions, Academics, Journalists, Agencies" - link for convenience here:
You can read Dr SC's rebuttal in that thread, so I won't reproduce it in full here.
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This is a strange thing for you to zero in on, if you reject the “4-Million-As-Hoax” hypothesis. Either, where he heard it from is inconsequential because it was so prevalent that he simply absorbed it by osmosis, to such an extent that even he or his production team wouldn’t really know, or be able, or be interested in citing his source. Or, it is consequential because he used judgement in ignoring Reitlinger etc and purposely cherrypicked it from some dubious source to add gravitas and dramatic effect to his presentation. We’ll get to “why” this would be important to him, but I’m sure you already know my position.
I’ve thought about this and I’m not sure which of these is worse for the “4-Million-As-Hoax” defense. They are both damning. The former settles it, that the hoax has already been in situ by this stage, and the lack of retraction, public outcry, apology, internal QC etc underscores how little accuracy would have even mattered to Bronowski, the producers, his estate or the audience. The latter suggests purposeful deceit on the part of Bronowski, and leaves me with very little heavy lifting required as to if or why he wishes to intentionally deceive.
I didn’t tell the LLM that he’s Jewish and lying about the Holocaust, that’s just between us
Now while technically it’s unfalsifiable on my part that he’s being intentionally deceitful, I feel there is enough here for it to be taken as granted. I see two possibilities
- The silly goose hypothesis, he simply got caught up in the moment and neglected to process what a 4,000,000 death toll would actually entail, including for example 4 x the throughput issues that you guys are currently struggling with. You’ll note I’m being very careful to not strawman him here with 4,000,000 gassings. Even though it’s heavily implied, and i do believe that he means to propagate 4,000,000 gassings, he only mentions 4,000,000 ashes (that is, 4,000,000 murders and cremations, and I simply don't want to make that assertion and give you the ammo to start quibbling about his wording on the gassings, as it's irrelevant), or
- my charge, he is intentionally being deceptive to the public and his “ethnic interests” are shaping his behaviour and message here.
Again technically unfalsifiable but I’ve enough to go on that the latter beats the former. It also simultaneously explains his very next sentence, and is far more satisfying than “this otherwise gifted 150 IQ* man arbitrarily and unexpectedly becomes a silly goose for a few minutes and reverts back again”.
I couldn’t get the whole screenshot into view because it obscured everything with caveats about limitations etc, but this prompt was “give me a credible estimate of Jacob Bronowski’s IQ range given everything we know about his intellectual achievements”
"b-b-but that's just another appeal to authority"
No it's not, I'm making the case that he has the faculties and judgement to ascertain what, in any other circumstance, would be important to account for - that is, the method and procedure for what he is claiming.
Final note re "appeal to authority" - I always endeavour to address people by their proper title when addressing them. I find it as a mark of respect, it was how I was raised, and I believe the world would be a better place if we acknowledged each other's achievements. That includes interlocutors from across the aisle, and I always endeavour to do so honestly. For example, I never address Rudolf as Dr Rudolf as that is not accurate, and secondly I always address SanityCheck, Numar Patru, and Richard Green as "Dr", and have done since I learned SC and NP were PhD holders. So i find it ridiculous that that gets thrown around in a discussion like this, even if I had invoked Bronowski's credentials, it was irrelevant to this criticism.
Context:
On page 4 of that thread, located here: https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=308&start=45 , Dr SanityCheck took issue with my assertion
Emphasis added
The Poles and Soviets hoaxed the 4 million figures, necessitating the co-operation of multiple governments, academics, institutions, journalists, agencies, and civilians, for multiple decades
His challenge, verbalised as:
Emphasis also added.
'Multiple governments' is simply not true, because European governments investigated their own death tolls from WWII from 1945 onwards, as did 'academics, institutions, journalists, agencies' and came up with totals for Jewish deportees and victims which did not add up to 4M
To support my claim, I presented a video clip of Jacob Bronowski asserting the 4 Million Hoax on BBC in his "Ascent of Man" project, as this clip covers every category of my claim: "State Institutions, Academics, Journalists, Agencies" - link for convenience here:
You can read Dr SC's rebuttal in that thread, so I won't reproduce it in full here.
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Some notes, I’ll start with the quip “repeating what he had heard and we don’t know where he heard it”Bronowski was not even beginning to be a critical historian with this, he was repeating what he had heard, and we don't know where he heard it from.
So yes, Bronowski was absolutely being a silly goose, something which is all too common with academics, public intellectuals and journalists who will repeat things without critically examining everything. They might be critical of other things in the same article, book, TV series, but expecting flawless perfection or over-endowing a particular commentator with supposed omniscient powers is marketing bullshit at best.
This is a strange thing for you to zero in on, if you reject the “4-Million-As-Hoax” hypothesis. Either, where he heard it from is inconsequential because it was so prevalent that he simply absorbed it by osmosis, to such an extent that even he or his production team wouldn’t really know, or be able, or be interested in citing his source. Or, it is consequential because he used judgement in ignoring Reitlinger etc and purposely cherrypicked it from some dubious source to add gravitas and dramatic effect to his presentation. We’ll get to “why” this would be important to him, but I’m sure you already know my position.
I’ve thought about this and I’m not sure which of these is worse for the “4-Million-As-Hoax” defense. They are both damning. The former settles it, that the hoax has already been in situ by this stage, and the lack of retraction, public outcry, apology, internal QC etc underscores how little accuracy would have even mattered to Bronowski, the producers, his estate or the audience. The latter suggests purposeful deceit on the part of Bronowski, and leaves me with very little heavy lifting required as to if or why he wishes to intentionally deceive.
Not quite a reverse-appeal-to-authority. Firstly, i didn't mention his credentials when making the initial point, it was only after you dishonestly presented Bronowski as a TV Personality to sort of, handwave away the point I was making about academic perpetuating this myth. Additionally, I’m not critiquing him for getting something wrong, I'm critiquing him for being intentionally deceptive and using his platform / reputation in deceitful and irresponsible ways.The Oh He Was A Professor line is a clear appeal to academic authority - even if it's meant to undo it - and as such is *exactly* what Carl Sagan was warning against in the Baloney Detection Kit. As Sagan notes, authorities have been wrong before, and this is a great example of it.
I didn’t tell the LLM that he’s Jewish and lying about the Holocaust, that’s just between us
Now while technically it’s unfalsifiable on my part that he’s being intentionally deceitful, I feel there is enough here for it to be taken as granted. I see two possibilities
- The silly goose hypothesis, he simply got caught up in the moment and neglected to process what a 4,000,000 death toll would actually entail, including for example 4 x the throughput issues that you guys are currently struggling with. You’ll note I’m being very careful to not strawman him here with 4,000,000 gassings. Even though it’s heavily implied, and i do believe that he means to propagate 4,000,000 gassings, he only mentions 4,000,000 ashes (that is, 4,000,000 murders and cremations, and I simply don't want to make that assertion and give you the ammo to start quibbling about his wording on the gassings, as it's irrelevant), or
- my charge, he is intentionally being deceptive to the public and his “ethnic interests” are shaping his behaviour and message here.
Again technically unfalsifiable but I’ve enough to go on that the latter beats the former. It also simultaneously explains his very next sentence, and is far more satisfying than “this otherwise gifted 150 IQ* man arbitrarily and unexpectedly becomes a silly goose for a few minutes and reverts back again”.
I couldn’t get the whole screenshot into view because it obscured everything with caveats about limitations etc, but this prompt was “give me a credible estimate of Jacob Bronowski’s IQ range given everything we know about his intellectual achievements”
"b-b-but that's just another appeal to authority"
No it's not, I'm making the case that he has the faculties and judgement to ascertain what, in any other circumstance, would be important to account for - that is, the method and procedure for what he is claiming.
Understandable, but you’ve misunderstood my position so I’ll clarify. I’m not accusing Bronowski-As-Englishman bewailing the Nazis-As-Germans for being evil. I’m accusing Bronowski-As-Jew berating Non-Jews-As-Antisemites for being evil, or at best, one step from inevitable evil.
Interesting that you slipped from a British TV series to bewailing the supposed evil told to 'they and their parents and grandparents', i.e. Germans and Austrians.
Final note re "appeal to authority" - I always endeavour to address people by their proper title when addressing them. I find it as a mark of respect, it was how I was raised, and I believe the world would be a better place if we acknowledged each other's achievements. That includes interlocutors from across the aisle, and I always endeavour to do so honestly. For example, I never address Rudolf as Dr Rudolf as that is not accurate, and secondly I always address SanityCheck, Numar Patru, and Richard Green as "Dr", and have done since I learned SC and NP were PhD holders. So i find it ridiculous that that gets thrown around in a discussion like this, even if I had invoked Bronowski's credentials, it was irrelevant to this criticism.
